Sensitive topic - race and rates

[+ Jamie21]

1 hour ago, DWnyc said:

Isn’t “tea” also one of the classes word for a meal as a whole?  

It is! 

[+ DrownedBoy]

Just a reminder from my OP - we do have a lot of studies (ethnographic) on this area, but only from the provider PoV. They make interesting reading.

You can find a LOT of these on the Internet; I found these 2 the best:

Surviving the Streets of New York: Experiences of LGBTQ Youth, YMSM, and YWSW Engaged in Survival Sex (urban.org)

Chicago_0.pdf (innovatingjustice.org)

The NYC study really delved into the issue of race. One brutally honest quote from an interview with a provider:

Quote

"I don’t like messing with black guys because from my experience they are always cheap. I hate the fact that I like have to tell the truth. This is stereotypical, but it is statistical for a prostitute you know. What I’m saying is, most of them are Caucasian. When it comes to white guys, right; you can say oh it’s 200 for the hour, right? You can get them to come over 200 for the hour, and then you can have then in there for 15 minutes. A black guy will be like; no I paid you for an hour."

 

[Rocca]

In my experience, I have not seen much variation in price based on race or color. I have seen variation in price based on age, and maybe fitness level. Ive seen older men charge a little less, and Ive seen older men who aren’t as fit charge less. 
Guys with model/actor looks are going to charge about the same black or white. Guys with average looks charge about the same black or white.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Rocca

[Jaroslav]

Race (age, wealth, education, weight, etc) should be immaterial since rate is allegedly strictly for time. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Jaroslav

[Constantine]

Sometimes I see "white" listed as a selling point in an ad, e.g. "young, fit and white" or something like that. Conversely, I've also seen some black providers do the equivalent on their profiles.

The race of the provider can be a selling point depending on the client.

[+ Lucky]

18 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

It is! 

Happy Birthday @Jamie21

[+ Pensant]

Let me echo that acclamation: Happy Birthday, Jamie! Another poster I’d love to meet someday.

[rojjodc]

13 hours ago, Jaroslav said:

Race (age, wealth, education, weight, etc) should be immaterial since rate is allegedly strictly for time. 

The profiles of the clients willing to pay is the major factor.  They generate the demand.  So, race, along with age, weight, and other factors that influence perceived 'desirability', are material based on client's desires and their profile (wealth, age, race, etc.).  

[DWnyc]

2 hours ago, Lucky said:

Happy Birthday @Jamie21

Jamie22 for the next 12 months 

[DWnyc]

12 hours ago, Quincy_7 said:

Sometimes I see "white" listed as a selling point in an ad, e.g. "young, fit and white" or something like that. Conversely, I've also seen some black providers do the equivalent on their profiles.

The race of the provider can be a selling point depending on the client.

Agreed.

However there is difference in the association with exclusion when these identities are proudly stated.

This is why most US colleges will have an African American or Hispanic or Asian etc student club but not one for whites, primarily because there is no need when the entire campus, not to mention the country, is open to them and when no effort is needed to find demographic peers.  

To paraphrase Matt Damon’s character in The Good Shepherd, “the rest of you are just visiting”.  Now I don’t believe that … America is perhaps the greatest example of constantly welcoming and empowering incredible diversity, but it neatly sums up a lot of attitudes and realities. And that’s why it matters how and why difference and preference is expressed. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by DWnyc

[+ Jamie21]

2 hours ago, DWnyc said:

Jamie22 for the next 12 months 

Ha ha 22 was years ago! 

[caramelsub]

I’m a person of color, not to say people of color can’t be racist,  because that isn’t true. So I’m going to be honest. I’ve never been sexually attracted to an oriental man. I’ve never been with an oriental man. Or even liked watching oriental porn. I love them as people, and friends, and their culture, but not in a sexual way. I’ve been around orientals since childhood, as I am in an artistic field that is dominated by people of the orient. I am however attracted to Indian men, and recently started watching some great gay Indian porn. (That is why I said oriental instead of Asian, not to be derogatory) But I’m sure a lot of gay Asian men aren’t into black/African men either. Has nothing to do with being racist it’s just what turns you on. Racism is about respect.

Edited April 18, 2023 by caramelsub

[+ jessmapex]

On 4/16/2023 at 3:53 AM, Quartz said:

I can relate to this as an Asian guy. I don’t think I’m bad looking, but I struggle to pull in dates from Grindr and related apps, whereas my friend who’s white has dates lined up literally every day in a single week, sometimes twice in a single day. (He had just undergone a breakup and was diving headfirst into the dating pool.)

My partner who’s also white has more frequent chats with people from Grindr than me. I’ve grown to accept this pecking order in American society and be content with the quality few friends I’ve made through the apps, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t sting when I see non-Asian friends who have significantly more successes meeting on the apps than I do.

It’s also why I’m starting to explore hiring tbh.

I bet a big percentage of guys chatting with your partner are Asians themselves ! 

Before Grindr etc there was gay.com chat in the 90s. I experimented on some of those channels by creating profiles with identical physical stats, but different races. Guess which profile attracted most chats? 

This is not exclusive to gay dating or escorting. Similar experiments have been done by researchers with professional resumes also and the results are similar.

Yes, it is a fact of life. We have to accept it and move on. There is no one to blame and it's no one's fault. 

It took hundreds of thousands of years for humans to look different after we left our common ancestral land in equatorial Africa. But now we are connected and mixing and matching. It will take an equal amount of time for us to look alike or, at least, to see everyone the same way,  if we are still around.

[Marc in Calif]

3 hours ago, caramelsub said:

I’m a person of color, not to say people of color can’t be racist,  because that isn’t true. So I’m going to be honest. I’ve never been sexually attracted to an oriental man. I’ve never been with an oriental man. Or even liked watching oriental porn. I love them as people, and friends, and their culture, but not in a sexual way. I’ve been around orientals since childhood, as I am in an artistic field that is dominated by people of the orient. I am however attracted to Indian men, and recently started watching some great gay Indian porn. (That is why I said oriental instead of Asian, not to be derogatory) But I’m sure a lot of gay Asian men aren’t into black/African men either. Has nothing to do with being racist it’s just what turns you on. Racism is about respect.

Just an added note to your comments: 

You seem to be using the traditional British terms "Oriental" and "Asian." 

"Oriental" in British English has generally referred to East Asian and Southeast Asian. But it is now often replaced by "Asian" when referring to people (but not to businesses and restaurants). In the US, on the other hand, the term "Oriental" now has a very distinctly pejorative sense.

In Britain, "Asian" has traditionally been reserved for referring to South Asians -- Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Nepali, and others on the subcontinent. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Marc in Calif

[Rocca]

On 4/17/2023 at 6:38 AM, Quincy_7 said:

Sometimes I see "white" listed as a selling point in an ad, e.g. "young, fit and white" or something like that. Conversely, I've also seen some black providers do the equivalent on their profiles.

If I see “hot, fit & Black” in an ad, im ready to hire.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Rocca

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

1 hour ago, Marc in Calif said:

Just an added note to your comments: 

You seem to be using the traditional British terms "Oriental" and "Asian." 

"Oriental" in British English has generally referred to East Asian and Southeast Asian. But it is now often replaced by "Asian" when referring to people (but not to businesses and restaurants). In the US, on the other hand, the term "Oriental" now has a very distinctly pejorative sense.

In Britain, "Asian" has traditionally been reserved for referring to South Asians -- Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Nepali, and others on the subcontinent. 

What is the preferred term for people from North Asia?  And does the term differ when used by Britains, Americans, Orientals, South Asians, or Middle Easterners?  Or are Russians included when referring to Asians?

Edited April 19, 2023 by Vegas777

[DWnyc]

4 hours ago, caramelsub said:

But I’m sure a lot of gay Asian men aren’t into black/African men either. Has nothing to do with being racist it’s just what turns you on. Racism is about respect.

I don’t believe we are debating sexual preference based on race here. That’s a valid topic but different. 

We are talking about if trends exist in market rates based on race, driven by different treatment of providers based on their race. And that is tied to your closing statement on respect. 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

So far, I have spent the most on my Latin ex boyfriend, followed by my Oriental ex boyfriend, then my African ex boyfriends, then my northern European ex boyfriends.

None of them had a rate posted when we started dating.  It's just what they cost me over time.

[DWnyc]

2 hours ago, Vegas777 said:

So far, I have spent the most on my Latin ex boyfriend, followed by my Oriental ex boyfriend, then my African ex boyfriends, then my northern European ex boyfriends.

None of them had a rate posted when we started dating.  It's just what they cost me over time.

Everything is a negotiation at the end of the day …

[JB_Studio38]

On 4/6/2023 at 6:10 PM, Simon Suraci said:

The age factor has been easier for me to verify than race. Time and again, I see lower rates listed, on average, for providers on the older end of the spectrum, all other factors being constant. It’s too bad because some of them offer great service.

A provider I work with in his mid to late 40s charges less than the other provider I work with who is 30yo. I’m in my mid 30s and charge the same as the younger guy.

That’s sad and unfair. I’d like to hear from more providers of color if this is true in their perception. I would not be surprised. It’s kind of like the double standard Americans have for female celebrities; we rake women over the coals for the smallest thing, but male celebrities can be total pigs and assholes and nobody calls them out for their behavior. Gradually that’s changing for the better, but change is slow.

Black and other non-white providers experience constant micro aggressions in their daily lives outside work. The last thing they need is another person punching down when they’re trying to do their job.

When you hire a POC, tip them for good service and treat them well. Have grace for them being human like any other provider. Show them you value them by not haggling over a reasonable market rate. It’s demoralizing for anyone.

The haggling thing happens to me too, more frequently from clients who have less available to spend. The unfortunate reality is many of them are people of color, but I still get this behavior from white clients working in lower earning careers, college students, unemployed folks, and others. Some of my black clients are well-off. Some of my lowest earning clients spend small fortunes on hiring without a second thought and I can’t wrap my head around it. Clients with medium to high earning careers generally don’t haggle, irrespective of race.
 

Beautiful dissertation, my friend.
 

I will say: I have come to evolve away from race being the underlying reasoning or factor to everything when it relates to sex work. And I’ve also come to just understand and accept it for what it is. I know I’m not going to be everyone’s preference. 

I just came back from a 2 month tour, where I drove from Kansas City to San Diego. I met all types of clients from White, to Latino, Middle East, Black, even Asian. 
 

I even got hired at a 4som where the other   2 guys were White/Latino and the client was White. It worked out great, the client even paid my whole fee upfront as a deposit. I was sitting on my friend’s beachfront patio when I was like: gotta go, I have an appointment now 😆 

I know there’s a lot in the news and media about race, even in Kansas City the shooting event. It doesn’t surprise me: the last thing I would want to do is knock on the wrong White, Black or Hispanic man’s home. Halloween is only once a year, any other time: it’s a safety risk. That’s why I: shock/horror, ASK FOR DEPOSITS BECAUSE LAST THING I’D WANT IS TO BE SENT TO A WRONG NEARBY NEIGHBORS HOME…THIS HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST.

I think what is true though, White guys likely get a bigger market to work with, and can probably more easily work in many markets: whereas I have to pick and choose which cities I do. I’ve always said: cities that have more than 25-30% Black population are often troublesome for me at some point. I’m living that nightmare now in Missouri. Most the clients flake, they don’t want to pay, disrespectful, unreliable, inconsiderate. Except for a select few, who Thank Gawd, I wish they were all that way. I see it when I go out on the town: They make Black clientele wait in long lines in the club, and close them early. Unfortunately the shootings and fighting amongst Blacks in the city doesn’t make it any better. Some don’t even set an example for respect. 

Idk why that is but, I feel when men with money are always having plethora of guys looking for the same bag, which often tends to be in such cities (Atlanta, Houston, Chicago as examples), things get dicey.

I will say though, my background is a mix of Black, White and Latin America so: I do catch an array of clients. But at the end of the day, like you said about #4…#4 could be anybody. Being nice and honest pays off. I may not be the type to smile and walk away from every cancellation/flake: but that’s called having a backbone and establishing boundaries. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Jarrod_Uncut

[Monarchy79]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:35 PM, Rudynate said:

I have never made a formal study, but if you look at ethnic preferences in profiles on hookup sites, it seems fairly common for guys to list just about every ethnicity EXCEPT Asian.  

And Asians exclude other Asians themselves… 

When was the last time anyone heard or saw an Asian vocalize a specific preference for another Asian?

I’ll wait…. 😎

[Rudynate]

18 minutes ago, Monarchy79 said:

And Asians exclude other Asians themselves… 

When was the last time anyone heard or saw an Asian vocalize a specific preference for another Asian?

I’ll wait…. 😎

I couldn't say, but there is no rule that says Asian guys aren't subject to internalized raciscm.

[Monarchy79]

This topic is a bit more layered and complex than people are realizing. Although the rest of  the world of business is quite clear that there’s a racial hierarchy, the sex/“personal services” area is a bit different; and it takes more than just one’s ethnicity to determine what type of rates they can charge…. From what I’ve witnessed:

1.) An average looking white guy can probably command a higher rate than an average black guy, BUT a good looking black guy with a BBC can charge more than an average white guy. 

2.) a Latino guy in his home land (brazil, Puerto Vallarta, Dominican Republic), will get lowballed due to the saturation of competition and the currency exchange rates, but he can come to the US, oil his sexy body up and offer unskilled massages with his uncut pinga swinging by around, and command a higher rate than a white dude with training. 
 

2.) White guys however have longer shelf lives. Other groups get older and “fade out” the business. White providers morph into “daddies”, and capitalize off of that easily. For example…. a white twink can morph into a twunk and then into a daddy; but you rarely see that progression with other groups. 

3.) Then there’s the “niche” effect….

black “thugs”, get paid more than white “skaters”, but a young white twink can command more of a higher rate than both of them. A white guy that gives you “redneck, white trash” vibes can also compete with the black “thug”, in rates. 

Then factor in such things as age, body type, hair color, etc. For example, if you’re a white guy, and have a hot body, are within an “appropriate” age range, AND have a rare physical attribute , such as being a natural blonde (like Nordic blonde, where even your pubes are bright blonde) or a natural redhead (ginger), then you’ll be able to command top dollar. 

All in all, whatever your ethnicity is, find your strengths and capitalize off of them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Monarchy79]

12 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

I couldn't say, but there is no rule that says Asian guys aren't subject to internalized raciscm.

Agreed. 
 

I just find it hilarious (and hypocritical) when men of various ethnicities call white men racist for having a preference for white men, when they have the  exact SAME preference…. 
 

I find this to be very common…. 
 

 

 

[Monarchy79]

On 4/7/2023 at 1:21 AM, DWnyc said:

I heard from more than one white friend (clients) who have said something on the lines of, given stereotypes of higher rates of crime (violence, drug use etc) among African Americans, they will avoid that demographic in providers since such meetings are already fraught with risks.

At least he’s being honest. A lot of white guys (and even other minorities feel this way). As a black man, I understand the generalizations and how they evoke fear in others. But I find it disturbing that generalizations ONLY stick to black providers or clients. It’s as if Jeffrey Dahmer never existed. 

I think that one of the biggest privileges of being white is that you are not chained to the screw ups of others in your own race (you’re treated as an individual). 
When your are black, you are connected with every crime, affliction, and bad experience that every group has had with a black person in their entire life.