Sensitive topic - race and rates

[pubic_assistance]

2 hours ago, DrownedBoy said:

I won't give exact numbers and names, but it seems like there's an unspoken racial hierarchy.

Maybe in some regions that may be true. Certainly not NYC where a majority of the most expensive escorts and erotic masseurs listed are Latino, not white. 

[+ DrownedBoy]

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

Maybe in some regions that may be true. Certainly not NYC where a majority of the most expensive escorts and erotic masseurs listed are Latino, not white. 

That's why I listed Latinos in the top tier...

[pubic_assistance]

9 hours ago, DrownedBoy said:

That's why I listed Latinos in the top tier...

To be clear you specifically said "light skinned Latinos" but I am instead referring to dark skin Latinos who dominate the muscle stud market in NYC. ( And Florida too ).

[DWnyc]

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

To be clear you specifically said "light skinned Latinos" but I am instead referring to dark skin Latinos who dominate the muscle stud market in NYC. ( And Florida too ).

My unscientific non exhaustive anecdotal observations in the NY market are different (on Latinos being the most expensive) but we may not be looking at the same market segments or be comparing apples to apples.

 

 

[pubic_assistance]

32 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

My unscientific non exhaustive anecdotal observations in the NY market are different (on Latinos being the most expensive) but we may not be looking at the same market segments or be comparing apples to apples.

 

 

Agreed

We both understand we are sharing anecdotal evidence as opposed to scientific studies.

What I have observed in the New York market and using RENT.MEN as my guide, I would say the majority of high priced  muscle-boy company are definitely Latino. There is certainly a light skinned population from Columbia, and Brazil showing up in NYC,  but I still see a majority of darker complexion mixes with Native and African. As far as the price of the lighter skinned fellows being more expensive than their dark skinned counterparts. I don't see that ...do you ?

[rojjodc]

3 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

Agreed

We both understand we are sharing anecdotal evidence as opposed to scientific studies.

What I have observed in the New York market and using RENT.MEN as my guide, I would say the majority of high priced  muscle-boy company are definitely Latino. There is certainly a light skinned population from Columbia, and Brazil showing up in NYC,  but I still see a majority of darker complexion mixes with Native and African. As far as the price of the lighter skinned fellows being more expensive than their dark skinned counterparts. I don't see that ...do you ?

How are all of you finding the rates on Rentmen?  I though they used to publish rates for some providers, but I don't see them anymore.   I guess I have become a cheap old man - I have hard time wanting to pay more than $250-300 even though I have a much higher net worth than when I was younger and paying about the same amount....

[pubic_assistance]

4 hours ago, rojjodc said:

- I have hard time wanting to pay more than $250-300 even though I have a much higher net worth than when I was younger and paying about the same amount....

No one likes hyper-inflation.

[+ DrownedBoy]

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

No one likes hyper-inflation.

Especially when combined with a lowering of income.

[Storm4U]

On 4/7/2023 at 8:18 AM, Shawn Monroe said:

A lot of these comments are reminding me why i stopped coming in here as much. 

Same!!!!

Edited April 11, 2023 by Storm4U

[DWnyc]

10 hours ago, rojjodc said:

How are all of you finding the rates on Rentmen?  I though they used to publish rates for some providers, but I don't see them anymore.   I guess I have become a cheap old man - I have hard time wanting to pay more than $250-300 even though I have a much higher net worth than when I was younger and paying about the same amount....

Some non US based sites do list pricing, but usually I think it’s just from asking.

One of the issues earlier in the thread was the degree to which some providers are negotiated down based on factors such as race (but could also include age etc). So published / upfront rates are not the only indicator for this discussion, it’s also a question of where one ends up after the back and forth. 

Not to mention things like tipping, paying for extra time etc where there may be differences in how the average client treats the average provider all else being equal. 

[pubic_assistance]

I just don't understand negotiating rates. You're not buying a car or a home. You're asking a human being for his time and attention. How tacky to tell someone of any color that they're worth less ! 

[+ Pensant]

On 4/6/2023 at 11:26 PM, Simon Suraci said:

just the principle of the thing.

And that’s the thing. I would never consider shorting a provider. Even when I had to endure surliness on the part of a well-reviewed provider who tried to get $20 more from me after we’d agreed on a generous donation. I told him immediately that his attitude destroyed any desire on my part, yet I paid him his fee and sent him on his grumpy way. 

[+ Pensant]

This is one of the most interesting discussions in a while. I’ve learned a bit. Thanks to all the contributors.

[DWnyc]

5 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

I just don't understand negotiating rates. You're not buying a car or a home. You're asking a human being for his time and attention. How tacky to tell someone of any color that they're worth less ! 

You may not understand it, but it happens and that’s the main point of this discussion: To acknowledge that it happens.  But not just for race. 

Unregulated markets mean both the best and worst of capitalist traits, and some from those who consider themselves stronger will inevitably bully those they consider to be weaker. It’s been the same since caveman days.

There’s a flip side to this, worthy of another thread … about when providers bully clients and ask for more than what was agreed to, and do they play that game with some more than others. The power dynamic between a fit young attractive provider and an aging closeted unfit weaker client of any race (but some races may be more vulnerable) isn’t difficult to imagine. Can you imagine bad behavior from regular providers you like and trust? No, neither can I. Do you like and trust every provider you’ve ever met …?

[pubic_assistance]

48 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

You may not understand it, but it happens

I'm not saying it doesn't happen.

I'm saying I don't understand how anyone can be so immoral as to make another human being feel that they aren't worthy of the rate they ask. If you are shopping at Saks you don't ask your salesperson to mark down a leather jacket because you think it's worth less ( and it probably is ) but you wouldn't have the nerve. Why do people think they can behave like this with escorts ? Because they aren't worthy of dignity ? Then to assume someone is worth less, because they aren't a blond surfer boy ? All reprehensible and indicative of a cruel and narcissistic personality flaw in the client.

[Storm4U]

On 4/9/2023 at 4:16 PM, DrownedBoy said:

You shouldn't.  At least not according to what I've seen.

I won't give exact numbers and names, but it seems like there's an unspoken racial hierarchy. Casually, I'd say, from highest to lowest:

1. Caucasian and light skinned Latino

2. Black and dark skinned Latno

3. Asian

Obviously, there are many other races and factors that go into it (muscle, looks, skills, personality). But I'd challenge anyone to say that Asian men are treated nicely on Grindr. Likewise, from conversations with providers, this seems to be how it is in the Midwest (California and New York are foreign countries to me).

In case anyone thinks I'm trying to start a fight,  I will give another confession from my past. Every high school has a pecking order, and I remember the racial order at mine was:

 

1. Northern European/Asian (there were very few of the last, but they tended to attend honors courses)

2. Chicago ethics (Italian , Irish, etc.).

3. Latinos / Black (again, very few of the latter)

4. Recent Eastern European immigrants 

For any  Black American masseurs or providers reading this, take it from me: do not charge less than white providers are charging. If you are in a territory where most of the hiring demographics  are racists, (which if they would try to pay you less because you are melanated, then they very much are) you aren’t going to book much in that location to make it worthwhile anyway no matter how much you lower your rates, so it’s a bad business decision to lower your rates. You are better off moving to a territory where men hire hot men regardless of race. ALSO, there is an abundance of men who will pay you top dollar BECAUSE you are hot AND Black! Those are the clients you want! Work smarter not harder! I have never accepted less than I deserved, and neither should you. Do not sell yourself short (pun intended) 
This is my last contribution to this forum but I wanted to leave this behind.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Storm4U

[DWnyc]

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

I'm not saying it doesn't happen.

I'm saying I don't understand how anyone can be so immoral as to make another human being feel that they aren't worthy of the rate they ask. If you are shopping at Saks you don't ask your salesperson to mark down a leather jacket because you think it's worth less ( and it probably is ) but you wouldn't have the nerve. Why do people think they can behave like this with escorts ? Because they aren't worthy of dignity ? Then to assume someone is worth less, because they aren't a blond surfer boy ? All reprehensible and indicative of a cruel and narcissistic personality flaw in the client.

Ok … but that’s the point of the discussion …to ask if it happens as a general trend, starting from the premise that it shouldn’t happen.

Our individual moral compasses and track record are not up for scrutiny here. 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by DWnyc

[+ DrownedBoy]

Does anyone think that if escorting was legalized in the U.S., problems like this will go away, or at least be less of a factor?

[DWnyc]

52 minutes ago, DrownedBoy said:

Does anyone think that if escorting was legalized in the U.S., problems like this will go away, or at least be less of a factor?

For the problems to go away, society has to change. That happens, but it takes generations … we think less in America now about who might secretly be a Catholic like we once used to, for instance.

Legislation can help reduce the problems by setting a standard of expected behavior, and would provide a path for recourse. Would also allow better data gathering and allow for more transparency on pricing. 

But the problems won’t disappear any time soon.

I can’t see even in a legalized environment many clients or providers being willing to go on the record given the stigma associated with this hobby. 

 

[rojjodc]

50 minutes ago, DrownedBoy said:

Does anyone think that if escorting was legalized in the U.S., problems like this will go away, or at least be less of a factor?

I don't think so.  It would maybe even get worse, at least for a while.   And I don't think it is merely a gay issue as I suspect that nonwhite women generally make less than white providers.  I'm not sure how people can talk about rates when they are not published on Rentmen, which is the only site I know of right now.  And even if a provider quotes a rate, can we assume that they get a lot of clients or more clients than a provider with a lower rate?  On RentMasseur, I've seen rates of some massage providers for $200 -250/hour or more and wonder if they are making out better than other providers with lower rates, as I did not think they were that more special/attractive or their ad was all that more enticing to pay their massage rate.   

[DWnyc]

7 minutes ago, rojjodc said:

I don't think so.  It would maybe even get worse, at least for a while.   And I don't think it is merely a gay issue as I suspect that nonwhite women generally make less than white providers.  I'm not sure how people can talk about rates when they are not published on Rentmen, which is the only site I know of right now.  And even if a provider quotes a rate, can we assume that they get a lot of clients or more clients than a provider with a lower rate?  On RentMasseur, I've seen rates of some massage providers for $200 -250/hour or more and wonder if they are making out better than other providers with lower rates, as I did not think they were that more special/attractive or their ad was all that more enticing to pay their massage rate.   

And part of the issue will always be what rate to providers end up receiving regardless of their official rates. Even if not published they can be quoted when you make an inquiry. 

I can quote you $300/hour but if you haggle with me more than you would with others, and if I’m more keen to get a booking even at lower price as my deal flow is lower than it might be all other things being equal, I might settle for $250 or $200. I’m not going to broadcast that so my published rate / initial quote will still be $300. And a client may still be more likely to cancel without telling me etc because of the reasons we are discussing, so effectively my rate could become zero, While my peer might still end up getting $300 with no pushback or be bargained down to $270. And the outside world can say “they’re both quoting $300, there’s no difference, where’s the problem?”

Not saying this is the norm but that’s part of the potential dynamic we’re discussing here including addressing those who don’t / can’t accept that these situations occur. 

[RandyVue]

11 hours ago, rojjodc said:

I don't think so.  It would maybe even get worse, at least for a while.   And I don't think it is merely a gay issue as I suspect that nonwhite women generally make less than white providers.  I'm not sure how people can talk about rates when they are not published on Rentmen, which is the only site I know of right now.  

Rates are advertised on Rent Masseur. Also, there was a time when rates were allowed to be shown on Rentmen. So the providers rates have only gone up since then and they all know they can increase their rates reasonably with time. In addition to that, some providers talk to, and collaborate with each other.
Providers are not setting their rates “blindly,” which is why rates are generally about the same with vary little variation no matter which guy you hire. They know how much they can charge.

Edited April 12, 2023 by RandyVue

[LFABWC]

In my experience white/caucasian escorts or masseur rates are way higher than others…….😪..Of course a lot of factors come into play….guy’s age, client fetishes, if the guy is in shape, etc, etc, etc….Being a free market probably the rates are dictated by the laws of supply and demand….Of course when it gets finally regulated by the government it may become a more equal playing field for the escorts!!.. ..so a young and in shape guy won’t be able to charge more for his services than an old provider. No more age related discrimination!!  👍💪😊

Edited April 15, 2023 by LFABWC

[Jamie21]

On 4/11/2023 at 10:50 PM, DrownedBoy said:

Does anyone think that if escorting was legalized in the U.S., problems like this will go away, or at least be less of a factor?

It’s legal here in the UK. Simply from my experience of rates here for providers of different ethnicities I don’t see the same level of discrimination as seems to exist in the US.

I’m Caucasian…British and a Londoner, so my experience is from that perspective. I’ve friends in the business (escorts and masseurs) of all different ethnicities and none has said they experience much difference in expectations from clients in terms of rates, or demand.

Maybe because London is probably the most cosmopolitan city on earth there’s enough business for rates to be similar regardless of ethnicity? I think British society is also less segregated than US, even outside of big cities. Class seems to be more of a divider here than race (although those things do intersect). A British person can accurately place someone in the correct class as soon as they hear them speak, or by the way they make tea, or by what they call their evening meal. Foreigners cannot be taught that, it’s innate to a Brit. 

There’s so many factors that come into play with how providers set rates and how the market influences their rate decisions that it is very difficult to identify how much race influences it. This is a ‘looks’ business so it’s inevitable that if for example a guy likes smooth skin he’s more likely to find that look in a provider from east Asia. That’s likely to be his hiring preference. 

It’s a shame however to be so narrow in taste. I see all sorts of different races as clients, including guys who if I wasn’t working I probably wouldn’t be with recreationally so to speak, but what I’ve learned is that as your experiences broaden so does your appreciation of the beauty that exists beneath the superficial look. When you make effort to find the attraction in someone it’s amazing what things you discover and it really opens your mind to how attraction works at deeper levels (it’s the same regardless of ethnicity). Of course if doing sex work isn’t your job then yes, it’s easier and simpler to go with ‘I know what I like’ but I’d say to those who always go for a specific ethnicity- try a different cuisine occasionally. You might open up wonderful new vistas! 
 

[Quartz]

On 4/9/2023 at 7:16 PM, DrownedBoy said:

You shouldn't.  At least not according to what I've seen.

I won't give exact numbers and names, but it seems like there's an unspoken racial hierarchy. Casually, I'd say, from highest to lowest:

1. Caucasian and light skinned Latino

2. Black and dark skinned Latno

3. Asian

Obviously, there are many other races and factors that go into it (muscle, looks, skills, personality). But I'd challenge anyone to say that Asian men are treated nicely on Grindr. Likewise, from conversations with providers, this seems to be how it is in the Midwest (California and New York are foreign countries to me).

I can relate to this as an Asian guy. I don’t think I’m bad looking, but I struggle to pull in dates from Grindr and related apps, whereas my friend who’s white has dates lined up literally every day in a single week, sometimes twice in a single day. (He had just undergone a breakup and was diving headfirst into the dating pool.)

My partner who’s also white has more frequent chats with people from Grindr than me. I’ve grown to accept this pecking order in American society and be content with the quality few friends I’ve made through the apps, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t sting when I see non-Asian friends who have significantly more successes meeting on the apps than I do.

It’s also why I’m starting to explore hiring tbh.