Sensitive topic - race and rates

[Jarrod_Uncut]

On 4/6/2023 at 6:10 PM, Simon Suraci said:

The age factor has been easier for me to verify than race. Time and again, I see lower rates listed, on average, for providers on the older end of the spectrum, all other factors being constant. It’s too bad because some of them offer great service.

A provider I work with in his mid to late 40s charges less than the other provider I work with who is 30yo. I’m in my mid 30s and charge the same as the younger guy.

That’s sad and unfair. I’d like to hear from more providers of color if this is true in their perception. I would not be surprised. It’s kind of like the double standard Americans have for female celebrities; we rake women over the coals for the smallest thing, but male celebrities can be total pigs and assholes and nobody calls them out for their behavior. Gradually that’s changing for the better, but change is slow.

Black and other non-white providers experience constant micro aggressions in their daily lives outside work. The last thing they need is another person punching down when they’re trying to do their job.

When you hire a POC, tip them for good service and treat them well. Have grace for them being human like any other provider. Show them you value them by not haggling over a reasonable market rate. It’s demoralizing for anyone.

The haggling thing happens to me too, more frequently from clients who have less available to spend. The unfortunate reality is many of them are people of color, but I still get this behavior from white clients working in lower earning careers, college students, unemployed folks, and others. Some of my black clients are well-off. Some of my lowest earning clients spend small fortunes on hiring without a second thought and I can’t wrap my head around it. Clients with medium to high earning careers generally don’t haggle, irrespective of race.
 

Beautiful dissertation, my friend.
 

I will say: I have come to evolve away from race being the underlying reasoning or factor to everything when it relates to sex work. And I’ve also come to just understand and accept it for what it is. I know I’m not going to be everyone’s preference. 

I just came back from a 2 month tour, where I drove from Kansas City to San Diego. I met all types of clients from White, to Latino, Middle East, Black, even Asian. 
 

I even got hired at a 4som where the other   2 guys were White/Latino and the client was White. It worked out great, the client even paid my whole fee upfront as a deposit. I was sitting on my friend’s beachfront patio when I was like: gotta go, I have an appointment now 😆 

I know there’s a lot in the news and media about race, even in Kansas City the shooting event. It doesn’t surprise me: the last thing I would want to do is knock on the wrong White, Black or Hispanic man’s home. Halloween is only once a year, any other time: it’s a safety risk. That’s why I: shock/horror, ASK FOR DEPOSITS BECAUSE LAST THING I’D WANT IS TO BE SENT TO A WRONG NEARBY NEIGHBORS HOME…THIS HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST.

I think what is true though, White guys likely get a bigger market to work with, and can probably more easily work in many markets: whereas I have to pick and choose which cities I do. I’ve always said: cities that have more than 25-30% Black population are often troublesome for me at some point. I’m living that nightmare now in Missouri. Most the clients flake, they don’t want to pay, disrespectful, unreliable, inconsiderate. Except for a select few, who Thank Gawd, I wish they were all that way. I see it when I go out on the town: They make Black clientele wait in long lines in the club, and close them early. Unfortunately the shootings and fighting amongst Blacks in the city doesn’t make it any better. Some don’t even set an example for respect. 

Idk why that is but, I feel when men with money are always having plethora of guys looking for the same bag, which often tends to be in such cities (Atlanta, Houston, Chicago as examples), things get dicey.

I will say though, my background is a mix of Black, White and Latin America so: I do catch an array of clients. But at the end of the day, like you said about #4…#4 could be anybody. Being nice and honest pays off. I may not be the type to smile and walk away from every cancellation/flake: but that’s called having a backbone and establishing boundaries. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Jarrod_Uncut

[Monarchy79]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:35 PM, Rudynate said:

I have never made a formal study, but if you look at ethnic preferences in profiles on hookup sites, it seems fairly common for guys to list just about every ethnicity EXCEPT Asian.  

And Asians exclude other Asians themselves… 

When was the last time anyone heard or saw an Asian vocalize a specific preference for another Asian?

I’ll wait…. 😎

[Rudynate]

18 minutes ago, Monarchy79 said:

And Asians exclude other Asians themselves… 

When was the last time anyone heard or saw an Asian vocalize a specific preference for another Asian?

I’ll wait…. 😎

I couldn't say, but there is no rule that says Asian guys aren't subject to internalized raciscm.

[Monarchy79]

This topic is a bit more layered and complex than people are realizing. Although the rest of  the world of business is quite clear that there’s a racial hierarchy, the sex/“personal services” area is a bit different; and it takes more than just one’s ethnicity to determine what type of rates they can charge…. From what I’ve witnessed:

1.) An average looking white guy can probably command a higher rate than an average black guy, BUT a good looking black guy with a BBC can charge more than an average white guy. 

2.) a Latino guy in his home land (brazil, Puerto Vallarta, Dominican Republic), will get lowballed due to the saturation of competition and the currency exchange rates, but he can come to the US, oil his sexy body up and offer unskilled massages with his uncut pinga swinging by around, and command a higher rate than a white dude with training. 
 

2.) White guys however have longer shelf lives. Other groups get older and “fade out” the business. White providers morph into “daddies”, and capitalize off of that easily. For example…. a white twink can morph into a twunk and then into a daddy; but you rarely see that progression with other groups. 

3.) Then there’s the “niche” effect….

black “thugs”, get paid more than white “skaters”, but a young white twink can command more of a higher rate than both of them. A white guy that gives you “redneck, white trash” vibes can also compete with the black “thug”, in rates. 

Then factor in such things as age, body type, hair color, etc. For example, if you’re a white guy, and have a hot body, are within an “appropriate” age range, AND have a rare physical attribute , such as being a natural blonde (like Nordic blonde, where even your pubes are bright blonde) or a natural redhead (ginger), then you’ll be able to command top dollar. 

All in all, whatever your ethnicity is, find your strengths and capitalize off of them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Monarchy79]

12 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

I couldn't say, but there is no rule that says Asian guys aren't subject to internalized raciscm.

Agreed. 
 

I just find it hilarious (and hypocritical) when men of various ethnicities call white men racist for having a preference for white men, when they have the  exact SAME preference…. 
 

I find this to be very common…. 
 

 

 

[Monarchy79]

On 4/7/2023 at 1:21 AM, DWnyc said:

I heard from more than one white friend (clients) who have said something on the lines of, given stereotypes of higher rates of crime (violence, drug use etc) among African Americans, they will avoid that demographic in providers since such meetings are already fraught with risks.

At least he’s being honest. A lot of white guys (and even other minorities feel this way). As a black man, I understand the generalizations and how they evoke fear in others. But I find it disturbing that generalizations ONLY stick to black providers or clients. It’s as if Jeffrey Dahmer never existed. 

I think that one of the biggest privileges of being white is that you are not chained to the screw ups of others in your own race (you’re treated as an individual). 
When your are black, you are connected with every crime, affliction, and bad experience that every group has had with a black person in their entire life. 

 

 

 

 

[Monarchy79]

On 4/17/2023 at 12:56 PM, DWnyc said:

Agreed.

However there is difference in the association with exclusion when these identities are proudly stated.

This is why most US colleges will have an African American or Hispanic or Asian etc student club but not one for whites, primarily because there is no need when the entire campus, not to mention the country, is open to them and when no effort is needed to find demographic peers.  

To paraphrase Matt Damon’s character in The Good Shepherd, “the rest of you are just visiting”.  Now I don’t believe that … America is perhaps the greatest example of constantly welcoming and empowering incredible diversity, but it neatly sums up a lot of attitudes and realities. And that’s why it matters how and why difference and preference is expressed. 

America welcomes diversity, but not equality. 
 

[Monarchy79]

On 4/11/2023 at 7:24 AM, pubic_assistance said:

I just don't understand negotiating rates. You're not buying a car or a home. You're asking a human being for his time and attention. How tacky to tell someone of any color that they're worth less ! 

Agreed!!! It’s so disrespectful. 

[Monarchy79]

On 4/16/2023 at 10:20 PM, Rocca said:

In my experience, I have not seen much variation in price based on race or color. I have seen variation in price based on age, and maybe fitness level. Ive seen older men charge a little less, and Ive seen older men who aren’t as fit charge less. 
Guys with model/actor looks are going to charge about the same black or white. Guys with average looks charge about the same black or white.

There may be a twist to this… The average looking white guy is now a “niche”. And many command higher rates… 

Remember, Paul Rudd got voted “sexiest man alive”, and the COVID pandemic gave more empathy for the “dad bod”. 
 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Monarchy79

[Wolfer]

On 4/16/2023 at 11:57 PM, DrownedBoy said:

"I don’t like messing with black guys because from my experience they are always cheap... You can get them to come over 200 for the hour, and then you can have then in there for 15 minutes. A black guy will be like; no I paid you for an hour."

Omg imagine someone actually expecting to receive the service they're paying for? This statement isn't the big reveal the provider thinks it is, it's showing this provider doesn't respect his clients' time nor money.

As a (white) client, it's true I rarely speak up when shorted on time, I simply don't do repeat business with that provider.

As for the topic at hand: where I live Latin, Arab and Mediterranean men are highly coveted (especially if they're masculine dominant tops). There's very few white providers in my area (there's even one provider I know to be white, but markets himself as Mediterranean). Rates seem to be more or less the same as white providers (with some expensive outliers). 

[Jarrod_Uncut]

4 hours ago, Monarchy79 said:

At least he’s being honest. A lot of white guys (and even other minorities feel this way). As a black man, I understand the generalizations and how they evoke fear in others. But I find it disturbing that generalizations ONLY stick to black providers or clients. It’s as if Jeffrey Dahmer never existed. 

I think that one of the biggest privileges of being white is that you are not chained to the screw ups of others in your own race (you’re treated as an individual). 
When your are black, you are connected with every crime, affliction, and bad experience that every group has had with a black person in their entire life. 

 

 

 

 

Well, are we talking people or specifically the gay culture?

I find gay culture tends to have its own narrative and dynamics of racism. This is more common in some cities than others though. I occasionally hear about White/Latino gays being a victim of a crime and the perpetrator was Black.

Further investigation or “getting to know” the person shows said person is either a regular drunk in public (thus saying or acting in irresponsible ways to make oneself vulnerable to violence), or they have little discernment for the type of Black men they go for, usually finding whoever online and bringing them home, and then talking about how they got robbed. 

4 hours ago, Monarchy79 said:

This topic is a bit more layered and complex than people are realizing. Although the rest of  the world of business is quite clear that there’s a racial hierarchy, the sex/“personal services” area is a bit different; and it takes more than just one’s ethnicity to determine what type of rates they can charge…. From what I’ve witnessed:

1.) An average looking white guy can probably command a higher rate than an average black guy, BUT a good looking black guy with a BBC can charge more than an average white guy. 

2.) a Latino guy in his home land (brazil, Puerto Vallarta, Dominican Republic), will get lowballed due to the saturation of competition and the currency exchange rates, but he can come to the US, oil his sexy body up and offer unskilled massages with his uncut pinga swinging by around, and command a higher rate than a white dude with training. 
 

2.) White guys however have longer shelf lives. Other groups get older and “fade out” the business. White providers morph into “daddies”, and capitalize off of that easily. For example…. a white twink can morph into a twunk and then into a daddy; but you rarely see that progression with other groups. 

3.) Then there’s the “niche” effect….

black “thugs”, get paid more than white “skaters”, but a young white twink can command more of a higher rate than both of them. A white guy that gives you “redneck, white trash” vibes can also compete with the black “thug”, in rates. 

Then factor in such things as age, body type, hair color, etc. For example, if you’re a white guy, and have a hot body, are within an “appropriate” age range, AND have a rare physical attribute , such as being a natural blonde (like Nordic blonde, where even your pubes are bright blonde) or a natural redhead (ginger), then you’ll be able to command top dollar. 

All in all, whatever your ethnicity is, find your strengths and capitalize off of them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You’re on to something, but those generalizations are a bit steep. Don’t fall into the trap of believing and manifesting certain things to be true. It’s simply not.

I have met more than a few White “providers” who were attractive but never took off in the biz. They were in it for a few months, then vanished. Not that I have all the answers or reasons for it, but it just goes to show. I have also have dealt with the occasional hate from non-Black friends over the years who are subconsciously unsupportive of me being a provider. Meanwhile they were giving it up to every Tom, Dick and Hairy for nothing.

The one thing I have seen to be true, is that White guys tend to have it easier when it comes to sugar daddies and longer arrangements. I’ve even seen first hand how some of these “tricks” operate (and I don’t refer to them as clients because they aren’t looking to pay for actual services…moreso they pay for the attachment they want to keep with the individual). I’ve seen many be available at a White friend’s beck and call, but then blow me off and ignore me any other time. Or even downright disrespect me. And the friend would be every much part of the scheme, bad mouthing and talking shit or making out like I’m living a freeloading lifestyle.

Just like a guy in Denver I know: after my friend passed away, the guy would talk and text me everything from start to finish, including how he gave him thousands of dollars over the course of time and that’s why he believes someone close to him (in this case, a White woman) overdosed him on bad drugs and took all the money. He did a couple nice things at the time, but he couldn’t even give me $100 if I asked.

People like that are everything that’s wrong with the scene. I knew him, before he ever met him. And he knew me when he was around too. Yet he had no real concern about my circumstances.

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Jarrod_Uncut

[Monarchy79]

3 hours ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

 

You’re on to something, but those generalizations are a bit steep. Don’t fall into the trap of believing and manifesting certain things to be true. It’s simply not.

 

 

I definitely don’t manifest these stereotypes, not to apply them to how I view or judge people. 

My posting was based on observations of things I’ve witnessed in life, from conversation to posts on this forum. 
 

I make a conscientious effort not to apply generalizations to others, because I hate when it’s done to me (and it’s done to me a lot). However, I do enjoy debunking those generalizations and watching people embarrass themselves in the process. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Monarchy79

[Monarchy79]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:57 PM, DrownedBoy said:

Just a reminder from my OP - we do have a lot of studies (ethnographic) on this area, but only from the provider PoV. They make interesting reading.

You can find a LOT of these on the Internet; I found these 2 the best:

Surviving the Streets of New York: Experiences of LGBTQ Youth, YMSM, and YWSW Engaged in Survival Sex (urban.org)

Chicago_0.pdf (innovatingjustice.org)

The NYC study really delved into the issue of race. One brutally honest quote from an interview with a provider:

 

Additional translation from the “street level Hooker” from this study…. 
 

“I can snooker a white guy out of $200.00 by shortening time, but I can’t pull that B.S. with a black guy…..” 

Further, I’ve seen quite a few posts on threads where people complain about providers shortening them on time. 
 

Kudos and respect to any customer (black or white) who has the balls to call out any provider who is trying to pull stunts like this for a fast and easy buck. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Monarchy79

[DWnyc]

8 hours ago, Monarchy79 said:

America welcomes diversity, but not equality. 
 

I’d argue it differently.

America doesn’t strive for equality, but that’s not because it’s racist or supports inequality. It’s from being a very capitalist society.

“Equality”  is ratified once the business case for it is there, rather than set as a moral target to achieve.

Edited April 22, 2023 by DWnyc

[DWnyc]

1 hour ago, Monarchy79 said:

 

Kudos and respect to any customer (black or white) who has the balls to call out any provider who is trying to pull stunts like this for a fast and easy buck. 

I think there’s another aspect here:

There’s stigma and fear of exposure for many so the awkwardness or problem would have to be extreme for some to raise a fuss.

And the higher net worth a client has, the loss in value from provider misbehavior feels like less of a problem. Easier to “let it go”.

[DWnyc]

9 hours ago, Monarchy79 said:

And Asians exclude other Asians themselves… 

When was the last time anyone heard or saw an Asian vocalize a specific preference for another Asian?

I’ll wait…. 😎

I have seen it frequently … but you’re talking about a demographic too small in number to move perceptions 

[+ Pensant]

30 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

I think there’s another aspect here:

There’s stigma and fear of exposure for many so the awkwardness or problem would have to be extreme for some to raise a fuss.

And the higher net worth a client has, the loss in value from provider misbehavior feels like less of a problem. Easier to “let it go”.

Shockingly, I’ve never had a provider short me on time. In fact, I have had awkward moments when they’ve said “are you trying to get rid of me?”.

[pubic_assistance]

9 hours ago, Monarchy79 said:

I think that one of the biggest privileges of being white is that you are not chained to the screw ups of others in your own race (you’re treated as an individual). 
When your are black, you are connected with every crime, affliction, and bad experience that every group has had with a black person in their entire life. 

I applaud your astute observation of this reality.

One of my friends who is of Caribbean/African descent has always taught her teenage son that his behavior represents his entire race so DON'T screw up.  The chain of negative perceptions of race will only be broken by those who don't allow prejudice to saddle them with a predetermined destiny.

Behavior is everything.

[Rudynate]

13 hours ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

I’ve always said: cities that have more than 25-30% Black population are often troublesome for me at some point. I’m living that nightmare now in Missouri. Most the clients flake, they don’t want to pay, disrespectful, unreliable, inconsiderate.

Is that an ethnic thing or a class thing?

[DWnyc]

32 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

Is that an ethnic thing or a class thing?

I suspect both 

[DWnyc]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

I applaud your astute observation of this reality.

One of my friends who is of Caribbean/African descent has always taught her teenage son that his behavior represents his entire race so DON'T screw up.  The chain of negative perceptions of race will only be broken by those who don't allow prejudice to saddle them with a predetermined destiny.

Behavior is everything.

There’s a reality of numbers …

There's a reason why there’s a “model modify” stereotype for some as well … too few examples of interaction for most  and if they are of similar nature, it gets grossed up in the population as well 

[DWnyc]

1 hour ago, Pensant said:

Shockingly, I’ve never had a provider short me on time. In fact, I have had awkward moments when they’ve said “are you trying to get rid of me?”.

Careful though as that can often be a way of them increasing the billed time, which is fine if you’re ok with that. 

I’ve had both … provider saying “I’m having so much fun let’s keep going” when time is up and if I say “I don’t want to pay for more time” a reply something like “are you kidding, this is hot …” etc (would I always cover with tip for extra time, to be clear)

I’ve also gone over without realizing and the provider then saying “this is my job, you know my hourly rate and you didn’t stop  …” and so I’ll settle and disappear (with no repeat) before it gets to the awkward conversation of “what, did you think I was spending time with you because I was enjoying it??!”

I typically pay attention to time even if provider doesn’t (the good ones will of course) … and have also had providers react in both directions … “don’t worry about time, it’s totally cool …” as well as “yeah you’re right, we should wind down … unless you want to extend and here’s what that means  …”.

Funniest one for me was when I noticed time was up, the provider said “no let’s keep going … this is hot … “ etc and I assume he meant it’s part of the agreed session … but a few seconds later he added “you got cash for the extra time, right?” I pushed him away and said, let’s stop please, and said I had another appointment to deflect a little. I got up and started getting dressed, and he launched into a tirade of “you know how frustrating that is, I’m so close, so annoying, you’re so selfish … “ etc.  BFE without asking for it  

 

 

[Monarchy79]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

I applaud your astute observation of this reality.

One of my friends who is of Caribbean/African descent has always taught her teenage son that his behavior represents his entire race so DON'T screw up.  The chain of negative perceptions of race will only be broken by those who don't allow prejudice to saddle them with a predetermined destiny.

Behavior 

11 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

There’s a reality of numbers …

There's a reason why there’s a “model modify” stereotype for some as well … too few examples of interaction for most  and if they are of similar nature, it gets grossed up in the population as well 

 

The problem with the “reality of numbers”, is that it’s selectively used to draw “scientific” conclusions and generalizations towards black men. 

For example, in many discussions on crime, the easiest “statistic” that people use to make the generalizations that black men are pre-destined to be criminals is that they are “a small percentage of the US’s population, but are the highest percentage of those conducting crimes”. Because of this, I’m looked at as a potential criminal, simply because of this statistic.

However, the profile of a lone-wolf, IS terrorist of a middle aged white man;

The world’s most prolific serial killers are white men; and 

The highest demographic of child predators are white men.

Yet, no one (of any race) carries any fear or discomfort around white men at all.

Jeffrey Dahmer, the Craigslist Killer, Stephen Port (the original Grindr killer), and Mark Latunski (the Grindr killer who mutilated his victim), are all widely known, yet no one (of any race), will have any reluctance to hook up with a white guy in the middle of the night anonymously from an app, because white men are generally assumed to be harmless, regardless of data or statistics. 

 

 

[Monarchy79]

3 hours ago, DWnyc said:

I’d argue it differently.

America doesn’t strive for equality, but that’s not because it’s racist or supports inequality. It’s from being a very capitalist society.

“Equality”  is ratified once the business case for it is there, rather than set as a moral target to achieve.

I’ll give you examples to counter your point: sports, specifically the NFL.

The NFL welcomes inclusion, as they will put talented black players on the field to win games, get concussions and build fan fare… 

But the  NFL won’t welcome equality, as the NFL moves up in the ranks of coaching and ownership, there’s a clear glass ceiling that talented black applicants can’t reach, even if it would better benefit the franchise. 

Even in capitalistic society, there’s a boundary of race…. and goes like this:

“We welcome minorities, as long as they know their place. You might be even reach the room, but you’re not going to be at the TABLE. And you’re never going to get me SEAT.” 
 

 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

11 minutes ago, Monarchy79 said:

The problem with the “reality of numbers”, is that it’s selectively used to draw “scientific” conclusions and generalizations towards black men. 

For example, in many discussions on crime, the easiest “statistic” that people use to make the generalizations that black men are pre-destined to be criminals is that they are “a small percentage of the US’s population, but are the highest percentage of those conducting crimes”. Because of this, I’m looked at as a potential criminal, simply because of this statistic.

However, the profile of a lone-wolf, IS terrorist of a middle aged white man;

The world’s most prolific serial killers are white men; and 

The highest demographic of child predators are white men.

Yet, no one (of any race) carries any fear or discomfort around white men at all.

Jeffrey Dahmer, the Craigslist Killer, Stephen Port (the original Grindr killer), and Mark Latunski (the Grindr killer who mutilated his victim), are all widely known, yet no one (of any race), will have any reluctance to hook up with a white guy in the middle of the night anonymously from an app, because white men are generally assumed to be harmless, regardless of data or statistics. 

 

 

So, how should I factor this in when determining how much to pay a provider?