Sensitive topic - race and rates

[DWnyc]

3 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

No, I don't claim to have solved the problem of race in the US.  I think, as long as we have the notion of "race," there will be a race problem. 

To be fair to us all in America, I can’t think of a single country I’m aware of that doesn’t have deep faultlines on all sorts of issues once you scratch the surface.

We also have very positive national traits of openness and allowing self criticism, so we talk about all this a lot more. Easy to fall into a trap of seeing ourselves as doomed or worse than elsewhere, but I don’t think that’s the case. 

[jt30331]

10 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

Sure, but no one is having an intellectual argument citing references with their gut when making choices based on what has been internalized over years … maybe ones whole life.

 

All I'm saying is that they're verbalizing the fact that they're stereotyping blacks, and trying to justify it with bullshit.  As you say, these are your "friends", so obviously you're totally free to do what you want.  However, I don't entertain or co-sign conversations that clearly are bigoted toward entire race (or races) of people.  I don't want people to confuse a silence and/or a listening ear with agreement.  

[Rudynate]

45 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

I’m just remembering an anecdote from someone I met socially who was a provider, and Asian American.

He said his “provider profile” was that he was a visitor (note, not an immigrant) from Thailand, with an accent. That got him more clients, repeats, higher rates etc than being what he was Ie a kid from california who happened to be of Asian descent. 

I have never made a formal study, but if you look at ethnic preferences in profiles on hookup sites, it seems fairly common for guys to list just about every ethnicity EXCEPT Asian.  

[+ José Soplanucas]

When we point to structural racism as a challenge, there is always some oblivious/racist idiot saying:

What? But I am color blinded!

[+ José Soplanucas]

3 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

I have never made a formal study, but if you look at ethnic preferences in profiles on hookup sites, it seems fairly common for guys to list just about every ethnicity EXCEPT Asian.  

What about Philipinos, Eskimos, Native American Indian ethnicities, Polynesians, (keep filling in your forgotten ethnicities)

[Rudynate]

I don't list preferences - I say "no preference."  I try to keep my system of classification as primitive as possible - a guy is either white or black or brown.

[Rudynate]

12 minutes ago, José Soplanucas said:

When we point to structural racism as a challenge, there is always some oblivious/racist idiot saying:

What? But I am color blinded!

I don't think it's stupid- they just haven't given it much thought.

[+ José Soplanucas]

4 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

I don't think it's stupid- they just haven't given it much thought.

I do not think that is possible after the BLM and woke movements rise. 

[DWnyc]

12 minutes ago, José Soplanucas said:

When we point to structural racism as a challenge, there is always some oblivious/racist idiot saying:

What? But I am color blinded!

To be fair, they may genuinely feel this, and it doesn’t necessarily make them racist. At worst I’d say they could be naive or tone deaf in not reading the room or understanding how this may come across.  And perhaps forgetting the entitlement / privilege that allows them to express this.

My bigger issue is with those who deny the existence of problems they haven’t experienced, meaning they lack empathy or willingness to consider testimony on things that may be unfamiliar or uncomfortable. Like someone middle class wondering out loud why inflation is a problem for so many millions on products such as milk and eggs. Or any man opining on what it’s like to be a woman (in the workplace … walking alone at night … etc).

[+ José Soplanucas]

Just now, DWnyc said:

To be fair, they may genuinely feel this, and it doesn’t necessarily make them racist.

Agreed, they can be stupid and not racist!

[+ DrownedBoy]

1 hour ago, DWnyc said:

We also have very positive national traits of openness and allowing self criticism, so we talk about all this a lot more. 

Agree very strongly. Talking about reality isn't condoning reality. But reality isn't nice, and it's wrong to just ignore reality when it makes us uncomfortable. 

Some memories came up while reading these posts. I grew up in a white, ethnic, working class Chicago neighborhood. By today's standards, you'd call the people I grew up with extremely racist.

I mentioned having black providers who wanted more after we agreed to a price. I remember the exact words of one: at the last minute he said, "hey, can you make it [agreed rate plus 50]?" I immediately canceled. 

Now, I remember being warned against those exact words when I was younger, and I've been hearing versions of it my whole life. In my neighborhood, we had a phrase for that line, and that phrase included the n-word.

Now, I've lived (and hired) long enough to know such behavior comes from people of all races. But if I hadn't escaped my neighborhood (and few did), I probably would believe those stereotypes. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by DrownedBoy

[+ jessmapex]

Race is definitely a factor on both sides - provider and client. I remember reading a newspaper article about pimps in NYC that said Caucasian women brought in much more $$ than other races. Hence women from eastern Europe and Russia are preferred trafficking victims. 

Race is also a big factor in non-commercial hook ups e.g via Grindr.

It has been discussed on this forum before. I am sure Rentmen has data about this based on the most commonly used Advance search parameters on the site. I bet a data driven conclusion will prove many points discussed here. 

I have been on both sides of this (as a race-based rejector and rejectee) , so I don't blame anyone but the society we live in and our upbringing that bias our preferences. But preferences do evolve as one ages and matures. 

I will however mention that it was hurtful to be a rejectee on Grindr (and Craigslist before that), but it is supremely hurtful when a provider rejects for race. A good lesson confirming money can't buy everything. 

 

[DWnyc]

6 hours ago, jt30331 said:

All I'm saying is that they're verbalizing the fact that they're stereotyping blacks, and trying to justify it with bullshit.  As you say, these are your "friends", so obviously you're totally free to do what you want.  However, I don't entertain or co-sign conversations that clearly are bigoted toward entire race (or races) of people.  I don't want people to confuse a silence and/or a listening ear with agreement.  

Well you don’t know what I may or may not have said in the entire conversations.

And Im reminded every Thanksgiving and college reunion that if I broke off ties with everyone I disagreed with I wouldn’t have anyone in my life. 

Apart from all you close friends on this forum 😊

[jt30331]

2 hours ago, DWnyc said:

Well you don’t know what I may or may not have said in the entire conversations.

And Im reminded every Thanksgiving and college reunion that if I broke off ties with everyone I disagreed with I wouldn’t have anyone in my life. 

Apart from all you close friends on this forum 😊

You’re right. I don’t know what you did or did not say to your racist friends/clients. That said, I wouldn’t minimize racist attitudes and/or behaviors to that of a simple disagreement. That said, you have your own way of addressing, if at all, racist behavior on the part of those with whom you do business, personal or otherwise. 
 

 

[DWnyc]

2 hours ago, jt30331 said:

You’re right. I don’t know what you did or did not say to your racist friends/clients. That said, I wouldn’t minimize racist attitudes and/or behaviors to that of a simple disagreement. That said, you have your own way of addressing, if at all, racist behavior on the part of those with whom you do business, personal or otherwise. 
 

 

Who’s minimizing here?

But I don’t think is possible or healthy to reduce everything to “is this person x-ist” (racist, ageist, sizeist if such a word exists and so on) and then make existential judgements on them. The reality is often far more nuanced, and I doubt there is a single one of us who escapes having prejudice (ie pre judging) of some sort or views that others might find offensive. These things vary across geography, generation, time etc as well. And also differ in importance to some, so I might be most offended by age discrimination, you by race and so forth. 

Coming back to the OP, our collective views influence what the market can support, and where such prejudice exists it does affect pricing. We’ve discussed that elsewhere in the forum when providers have wondered why their rates can’t be higher or why they can’t have stricter terms with clients. So yes there are obviously negative consequences to all this. Sounds like you and I differ on how we change the world on these matters, but that’s ok ... I agree the world should change, and that’s more than you’ll get from some others. 

[Storm4U]

I am Black/mixed. Im only speaking for myself, but I have never charged below market  rates, and I have not, nor would I negotiate my rates. My philosophy is always if someone want to pay a lower rate, they should go for the guy with the lower rate. 🤷🏽‍♂️

[jt30331]

8 hours ago, DWnyc said:

Who’s minimizing here?

But I don’t think is possible or healthy to reduce everything to “is this person x-ist” (racist, ageist, sizeist if such a word exists and so on) and then make existential judgements on them. The reality is often far more nuanced, and I doubt there is a single one of us who escapes having prejudice (ie pre judging) of some sort or views that others might find offensive. These things vary across geography, generation, time etc as well. And also differ in importance to some, so I might be most offended by age discrimination, you by race and so forth. 

Coming back to the OP, our collective views influence what the market can support, and where such prejudice exists it does affect pricing. We’ve discussed that elsewhere in the forum when providers have wondered why their rates can’t be higher or why they can’t have stricter terms with clients. So yes there are obviously negative consequences to all this. Sounds like you and I differ on how we change the world on these matters, but that’s ok ... I agree the world should change, and that’s more than you’ll get from some others. 

You’re right. We disagree on views/approach. I’ll leave it there. 

[DWnyc]

5 hours ago, jt30331 said:

You’re right. We disagree on views/approach. I’ll leave it there. 

And I’ll let you have the last word even with your consistent framing of this a certain way.

Take a look at some of the reactions above and how such conversations go generally, with eye rolls, “I don’t experience it so it can’t happen”, “i‘m not that way so it can’t be so”, “that’s the way it is, deal with it” etc ., and halting some discussions as “no longer on topic” (aka “uncomfortable”) all while other discussions in parallel veer off on every tangent imaginable. Some of this is the silence of the good people, but some of it more sinister. 

I assume you care about this issue a lot based on your comments, but focusing on our disagreements doesn’t actually serve the cause given all that’s around us if we are (as I assume) on the same side on the main issues. 

[DWnyc]

21 hours ago, jessmapex said:

 

I have been on both sides of this (as a race-based rejector and rejectee) , so I don't blame anyone but the society we live in and our upbringing that bias our preferences. But preferences do evolve as one ages and matures. 

I will however mention that it was hurtful to be a rejectee on Grindr (and Craigslist before that), but it is supremely hurtful when a provider rejects for race. A good lesson confirming money can't buy everything. 

 

Serious question. If you have rejected on race, why is it hurtful to face the same treatment? I understand being rejected is never fun, but aren’t you being played by your own rules?  

[TonyDown]

I book 2 or 3 massages a month.

 

I made a list with ethnicity of each provider (black, asian, Pashtun, Persian, Morrocan, latino, white, etc) then checked the current rate for all of these providers I've booked over the last several years.

The highest 3 rates are for 2 asian guys and one black guy.   All three are younger, masculine guys with very nice physiques, nice smile and so on.    That alone will probably trigger some of you, but it is what it is.  We like what we like.

So there could be other factors besides race that determine different tiers of pricing. 

Looking at the lowest rates from my list, most tend to be older providers.  That said, many of us know some awesome choices that are older 

I remember moving to Cali years ago and  seeing all these cute Asian guys.  An Asian friend pulled me aside and explained how some of these Asian guys I was noticing, prefer to date other Asian guys.  Yeah, I wished it wasn't true but that's life.  

Back to the OP, I do not doubt that providers have to deal with racism.  When I read in this thread about racism and about clients that want to haggle on price, I am reminded how important to treat providers with the utmost respect.

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by TonyDown

[DWnyc]

1 hour ago, TonyDown said:

So there could be other factors besides race that determine different tiers of pricing. 

(Btw I’m super impressed you found a Pashtun) 

It’s a combo of factors;, race isnt the only one but it could be significant, all else being equal. 

I recall an obnoxious post on Grindr on the lines of “if you’re above 40 or ethnic you better be hot or have a big dick”.

[DWnyc]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:58 PM, José Soplanucas said:

I do not think that is possible after the BLM and woke movements rise. 

You’re giving too much credit to some people.

And those movements for all the good they may have done have also triggered counter movements on a mass scale too. “All lives matter” for instance. 

[Marc in Calif]

55 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

(Btw I’m super impressed you found a Pashtun) 

Not at all difficult to find in California -- especially in the SF Bay Area.

The city of Fremont, for example, has one of the largest Afghan populations outside Afghanistan. And Pashtuns are the largest ethnic group in that nation.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Marc in Calif

[+ José Soplanucas]

1 hour ago, DWnyc said:

You’re giving too much credit to some people.

And those movements for all the good they may have done have also triggered counter movements on a mass scale too. “All lives matter” for instance. 

I humbly think those moments are a racist reaction to the BLM/woke rising. 

Beyond that, and whether or not you agree with the idea that racism is structural, my point is simple. If the conversation is about structural racism, and your response is, "Such a thing does not exist; the proof is that I am color blind," you are indeed stupid. You do not understand a socio/cultural/political structure if you think you contradict it with your experience.

 

[pubic_assistance]

Personally, I think a muscular physique and a big fat dick drives the price more than ethnicity does. At least that's MY observation of the scale in pricing.

Just for the record ...although I rarely hire escorts. The fellow who I paid the most ever for a hot very hot fuck was a black provider not white. He was very fit / very kinky and a very nice young man. All qualities that meant he was worthy of his high price. But then I'm a New Yorker and accustomed to being around people of all colors and cultures. So I think that makes you a bit more "blind" to skin color.