Sensitive topic - race and rates

[+ DrownedBoy]

I have a question that I really need to ask providers.

Is their an informal "tier" of different rates in the U.S. due to race? And how open are people in discussing that?

I ask because I've read comments here about Caucasians making more than minorities. Likewise, I had an Asian provider flat out say that as an Asian, he makes much less than other providers.

I'm not calling anyone racist for their preferences when hiring. I'm just curious, as the vast majority of my partners (hires or dating) aren't Caucasian.

[Shawn Monroe]

While it’s not the only thing that comes into play for rates, I feel like you are correct. 
 

sometimes I look at the way some providers of certain races are talked about here, and compare it to their rates and services, and I’m floored that they’re able to charge what they do.
 

And It can feel like I have to do more for less (for lack of better wording). 
 

granted I can’t speak for minorities of other races, but speaking as a black man you’re correct. 

[+ José Soplanucas]

People of Color have to work harder and for less money than their White brothers and sisters in most professions, not only in escorting. 

[LostUpstate]

I’m surprised, I would expect to pay the same rate regardless of race. Then again, I like all flavors- white, Hispanic, black, Asian! It’s not the race that is the attraction, it’s the individual for me. All the guys on my current hiring “wishlist” right now are either black, Asian or Hispanic. When I get my income tax refund…

[Simon Suraci]

This is a rather thorny question. Thank you for your candor @Shawn Monroe. I agree with @José Soplanucas.  Other providers of color please weigh in. My experience being a white cis gay man is quite narrow. I take an optimistic view that things are getting better and more equitable with time. Fortunately clients like @LostUpstate are hiring.

Systemic racism is still a strong lingering reality in the US. I’ve experienced it in the traditional workplace and with some of my clients in this field. Clients say with various levels of openness or coded language that they prefer white men over others. Some of those clients are white, but many of them are not white. I’ve also heard preferences for other races, some frequently fetishizing “BBC”, things like that. The U.S has a long history of euro centric beauty standards. However, these are changing more and more over time.

Every provider is different. Race is only one factor. Here are a few scenarios to illustrate my point:

1. Provider 1 is race A and is a top in demand for their reputation as a well performing penetrator, and their local bottom heavy market supports a demand for their services. Maybe their large cock contributes to their appeal, among other factors. Race may be only a secondary factor.

2. Provider 2 is race B and offers highly specialized kink services that are harder for a client to find and so they pay a higher rate than market average. In that case it has less to do with race B, and more to do with his niche.

3. Provider 3 is race C and gets a lot of attention from a small pool of clients who are really attracted to him because of his race, and that race happens to be a minority in his local market. Prices may actually be higher for provider 3 because he’s catering to a niche market who specifically wants him for identifying with, and having the look of race C. That same provider may not be able to charge those higher prices in a different market where more providers are available catering to client preferences for race C. In that case, location governs more strongly.

4. Provider 4 is race D and he gets a lot of attention from a large pool of clients who are really attracted to this provider because of his race. Prices may be higher for provider 4 because he’s got mass appeal. Problem is, provider 4 has poor communication skills. He doesn’t respond, he flakes, he’s rude, he’s impatient, he can’t have a decent conversation or deliver on his promises. This guy develops a poor reputation and few clients are willing to hire him for his advertised rates. Eventually his bad reputation catches up to him and he either has to lower his rates, or he charges higher rates to only those few who care more about his look than about good service.

In each scenario but 4, a different factor other than race is driving client hiring decisions more strongly than race. Race certainly plays a major role and I don’t mean to downplay it, but hiring decisions are often much more complex than that. The client is hiring the whole package, not just a skin color or a detached body part. Compatibility, reliability, reputation, quality of experience, and follow through are equally important.

Unfortunately scenario 4 happens quite often with white providers, even though the client continues to have mediocre or bad experiences with provider 4 and others like him.

Here’s an example from my own experience of systemic racism in our field:

I work occasionally with a white guy who is married to a black guy. His black husband is also a provider. Clients have straight up told my friend that they will not hire a second provider for their session that looks like his black husband. So they hire someone like me to work with the white provider husband instead. Seems it would make more sense for the two husbands to work together, seeing as they will naturally have more chemistry. It’s really unfortunate, but that kind of hiring behavior still governs a lot of the time. By the way, when they travel together, they post separate ads and see different clients. Part of it is that not everyone wants to hire more than one guy, but also I think their approach speaks to the fact that bias factors majorly into hiring decisions. I don’t know if they charge different rates. I will ask and report back.

[DWnyc]

I’ve heard that there is an effective tier just as there may be based on age and some other factors. And that clients are more likely to haggle with providers or color, both before and after making an appointment. 

I’ve also heard from more than one provider of color that they feel clients can be more demanding / punitive / rude when things don’t go as planned eg they are held more accountable on being late, not being able to perform, pics not regarded as accurate etc. And that clients are more likely to be flakey / cancel at last minute etc. with them.
 

Difficult to verify but I would say the perception is definitely there.

 

 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

When I visited Puerto Vallarta, I found people of white color who were visiting for an extended stay often had lower rates than local Latin men who were established.

When I visited some parts of the U.S. South and Midwest, I have found men with the largest advertised penis sizes tend to have higher rates.  This may correlate to people of black color.

I wonder if governments would consider making penis size a protected class for employment law?  Mandate the same rates for men with a smaller than average penis as those with a larger penis.  (This is in jest.  I am neither advocating for nor against a political position on equal pay for all penises).

Edited April 7, 2023 by Vegas_nw1982

[Simon Suraci]

1 hour ago, DWnyc said:

…effective tier just as there may be based on age…

The age factor has been easier for me to verify than race. Time and again, I see lower rates listed, on average, for providers on the older end of the spectrum, all other factors being constant. It’s too bad because some of them offer great service.

A provider I work with in his mid to late 40s charges less than the other provider I work with who is 30yo. I’m in my mid 30s and charge the same as the younger guy.

1 hour ago, DWnyc said:

heard from more than one provider of color that they feel clients can be more demanding…

That’s sad and unfair. I’d like to hear from more providers of color if this is true in their perception. I would not be surprised. It’s kind of like the double standard Americans have for female celebrities; we rake women over the coals for the smallest thing, but male celebrities can be total pigs and assholes and nobody calls them out for their behavior. Gradually that’s changing for the better, but change is slow.

Black and other non-white providers experience constant micro aggressions in their daily lives outside work. The last thing they need is another person punching down when they’re trying to do their job.

When you hire a POC, tip them for good service and treat them well. Have grace for them being human like any other provider. Show them you value them by not haggling over a reasonable market rate. It’s demoralizing for anyone.

The haggling thing happens to me too, more frequently from clients who have less available to spend. The unfortunate reality is many of them are people of color, but I still get this behavior from white clients working in lower earning careers, college students, unemployed folks, and others. Some of my black clients are well-off. Some of my lowest earning clients spend small fortunes on hiring without a second thought and I can’t wrap my head around it. Clients with medium to high earning careers generally don’t haggle, irrespective of race.
 

[+ DrownedBoy]

4 hours ago, Simon Suraci said:

The haggling thing happens to me too, more frequently from clients who have less available to spend. The unfortunate reality is many of them are people of color

Thanks for your honesty here. In several ethnographic studies of young male prostitutes in U.S. cities, many providers admitted they avoided black clients because they were "cheap" or too demanding. Racism goes both ways, although in this case, due to economic stereotypes.

 

@DWnyc point of order. If either client or provider haggles over prices "after making an appointment," it's not "haggling." It's "a violation of a verbal contract." And to me, that means instant cancellation.

EDIT: And @Simon Suraci  I admit I'm seeing other patterns now thanks to your input. On several occasions, I've had a provider haggle with me after we agreed to a price. All of them were black. I see where these stereotypes come from.

Edited April 7, 2023 by DrownedBoy

[DWnyc]

I heard from more than one white friend (clients) who have said something on the lines of, given stereotypes of higher rates of crime (violence, drug use etc) among African Americans, they will avoid that demographic in providers since such meetings are already fraught with risks.

[Simon Suraci]

2 hours ago, DrownedBoy said:

On several occasions, I've had a provider haggle with me after we agreed to a price.

I never haggle prices upward after agreeing to see a client for a certain discounted fee. This is just bad business. I keep to my word so as to give clients every reason to return, refer, and review. Generally I don’t discount because I already provide so many advertised discount specials and standing discounts as it is.

A recent example of client haggling was with a black client. At first he asked if I saw black clients. I was floored that he even felt the need to ask the question. It made me sad to think anyone made him feel unwelcome because of his race. Of course I see black clients! I live in Dallas, so I’m going to have many, if statistics and demographics play any role at all.

I was firm on price with the client and gave him all my specials and a day of the week discount, and pretty much every avenue for him to see me for a lower price without giving him a flat out discount that I wouldn’t otherwise give to someone else if they met the criteria. He kept pressing. We settled at $20 more than he wanted and $20 less than I was charging. Crazy to even have that conversation, it seems so trivial. I wasn’t busy at the time, so I agreed to discount his first massage. This was before we agreed to the appointment so we were on the same page. No surprise haggling later. I figured it was an opportunity to prove my value so he would be motivated to return and pay my full rate without hesitation.

My client arrived nearby but was really turned around, was on another street. I give very clear directions and clients consistently find me pretty easily, so this was unusual. We had several phone calls but clearly he has a very hard time orienting himself. Finding landmarks, going south, or even following the direction of the sun were a challenge. Why he refused to follow automated map directions in an app I will never know. On top of everything, he has a pretty severe stutter, so it took quite a bit of patience and understanding to get through everything. Some people have speech impediments, no biggie. We’re about 45 mins past his start time and I insist he stay on the phone so I could coach him to exactly where he needed to go. I met him a few blocks away where he parked, to escort him from there on foot to my studio. All the while I’m thinking “Thank God I have no clients booked right after”. That would have been a disaster. By the way, my clients can park for free right on site, but getting him any closer was going to be a real struggle.

I did a great job, as I do. The client was thrilled with my work, and he ended up paying my full rate anyway. He mentioned that he was so thankful for my patience and kindness toward him. During the massage he mentioned several of his friends who all like to go out to male strip clubs together. I told him about my referral discount which gives a benefit to him and the friend he refers. Since then, he’s referred three of his friends who all love my work and plan to return. Patience and kindness, in this case, came back to me in spades. And a little luck. I don’t know what I would have done if another client was booked right after his scheduled appointment time. Actually I do. I would have had to make the late client reschedule.

It’s quite rare, but I get annoyed when a client tries to haggle down in person AFTER agreeing to see me for a certain fee. I see no pattern in race when this happens. The most recent example was an early 20s white guy paying me in cash. It was $5 less than the agreed upon amount because he didn’t have the full cash amount on him. I didn’t care about the five bucks, just the principle of the thing. It upset me that he would disrespect me after I went out of my way to offer him my student and youth discount on my lowest possible 30 min massage rate. And on short notice late at night past my normal hours, to boot. Ugggh it’s about respect.

[Simon Suraci]

1 hour ago, DWnyc said:

they will avoid that demographic in providers since such meetings are already fraught with risks.

@DWnyc thanks for sharing. This is what many white people actually think but may be hesitant to share openly.

What a bummer. Systemic racism and historical injustices cause black people to be in worse situations, on average, than white people. For example, living in poorer areas. I’m wondering how things will improve economically for black people if the approach is to not hire them by association. Not all live in poverty or high crime neighborhoods or use drugs. Even for those that do, would we not want them to have access to economic mobility? Disqualifying based on race alone reinforces systemic bias and inequality.

How much of a risk is it to see a black provider, anyway? I suppose if a client is scared of the neighborhood he could request an outcall. If he’s concerned about drugs, he could ask the provider if he allows or encourages drug use. Remember that plenty of white providers are all about PNP, so watch out for them too if you want to steer clear of drugs. If violence, he could stipulate no weapons. If we think more critically about it, there are ways to overcome culturally ingrained pearl-clutching behavior.

[Jamie21]

It seems this problem is more prevalent in the US. My experience is in London and I don’t see the price differential based on race here, but possibly that’s because I don’t overtly look for it. Price varies more on the age of the provider although even that doesn’t seem to have a strong correlation. I work with younger guys cheaper than me and an older guy who is more expensive. 

I think all sorts of factors influence price, including how much business the provider wants. You can use price to manage your demand and the sensible providers will do exactly that. Want to be working every day with multiple clients? Reduce the price. Want to see 2 a week? Raise it. 

I’m always surprised by clients who ask “are you ok with seeing me?”…and they send a pic. I’ve been asked do I see Asians?, and by a black woman would I see her? The answer is it doesn’t matter what your race is, unless you’re French of course (joke!!…the English love the French 😉). 

I don’t see patterns of behaviour with different race clients either. Maybe they’re there but I haven’t noticed any. There’s some nationality traits that exist…Americans are generally very polite (I love being called sir). Middle Eastern clients are usually inhibited (most of the time except just before climax!) and they won’t engage in much talk or make eye contact. I think this is because of religious guilt 🙁. 

I think making assumptions about people based on race is a way of saving time “x is black therefore he will be like this, so I won’t bother to hire him / seek him as a client”. It’s kind of normal to do that because you simply can’t get to know the real person in every interaction with people on a daily basis, so you lump them into broad categories based on what they look like. That’s when problems start. 

However, I’d argue that doing sex work is exactly your role to get to know the real person (at least to get to know what drives them sexually-  which is the most basic of human behaviours) beyond the surface of what they look like.

So if you’re a sex worker who takes the work seriously why would you not want to look beyond the superficial and see the real person underneath? If you’re doing the work properly that’s exactly what you need to do to be successful. This client here isn’t ‘black’ he’s John and your job is to find out what drives John’s sexual desire and meet it as best you can. If you do that John will come back. Guaranteed. 
 

 

 

[+ FrankR]

33 minutes ago, Jamie21 said:

The answer is it doesn’t matter what your race is, unless you’re French of course (joke!!…the English love the French 😉). 

Mon dieu! 😆

[DWnyc]

In a business that’s so unregulated and private it’s only natural that the worst of human behavior can come out. Who’s going to file a complaint? Or even gather data to address disbelief / denial of trends? 

Add to that the issue of what we call “personal preference” to allow validation as we discuss this all.  Then add further to that entitlement (eg through price differentials) and it’s inevitable these dynamics will exist.

@Jamie21 From what I know of the UK it doesn’t surprise me race is less of a factor (I think Toronto and Montreal are similar) and there’s a lot of history and baggage in the US on this issue. And within the US there’s probably difference in geography. One observation I’ve had when traveling is a lot more mixed race couples (especially black and white) of all orientations in Europe and Canada than in the US. Or look at the lines outside nightclubs (again, gay or straight) in eg London vs Chicago and you’ll see a lot more segregation (even if through personal choice).

 

 

 

 

 

[Rudynate]

53 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

In a business that’s so unregulated and private it’s only natural that the worst of human behavior can come out. Who’s going to file a complaint? Or even gather data to address disbelief / denial of trends? 

Add to that the issue of what we call “personal preference” to allow validation as we discuss this all.  Then add further to that entitlement (eg through price differentials) and it’s inevitable these dynamics will exist.

@Jamie21 From what I know of the UK it doesn’t surprise me race is less of a factor (I think Toronto and Montreal are similar) and there’s a lot of history and baggage in the US on this issue. And within the US there’s probably difference in geography. One observation I’ve had when traveling is a lot more mixed race couples (especially black and white) of all orientations in Europe and Canada than in the US. Or look at the lines outside nightclubs (again, gay or straight) in eg London vs Chicago and you’ll see a lot more segregation (even if through personal choice).

 

 

 

 

 

Every time I'm in Canada, I'm struck by the diversity. In the US, even in regions that are ethnically diverse, people tend to cluster into communities of people like themselves.   In Canada, it's much more of a mix.   

[DWnyc]

2 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

Every time I'm in Canada, I'm struck by the diversity. In the US, even in regions that are ethnically diverse, people tend to cluster into communities of people like themselves.   In Canada, it's much more of a mix.   

We have huge differences in systemic approach in US vs some of these other countries.

We have self segregation through where we live and therefore who we mix with at school, sports clubs etc and by the time were old enough to go to college or work and make our own decisions some of this becomes deeply entrenched.

And to be clear it’s not just whites vs everyone else. If you’re Asian and have never known someone African American socially … or if you’re East Indian vs Latinos etc (having a maid or gardener doesn’t count) it’s not surprising that you have “personal preference” biased against the unfamiliar, whether it’s on music, food, or sexual attraction. 

The personal preference issue is very complicated and can’t be solved through legislation or overnight but there are clearly societal causes since there are such significant differences by geography / country in mixed race interaction. But I’d settle for people just being nicer to each other as they expressed that preference. 

[Rudynate]

1 minute ago, DWnyc said:

We have huge differences in systemic approach in US vs some of these other countries.

We have self segregation through where we live and therefore who we mix with at school, sports clubs etc and by the time were old enough to go to college or work and make our own decisions some of this becomes deeply entrenched.

And to be clear it’s not just whites vs everyone else. If you’re Asian and have never known someone African American socially … or if you’re East Indian vs Latinos etc (having a maid or gardener doesn’t count) it’s not surprising that you have “personal preference” biased against the unfamiliar, whether it’s on music, food, or sexual attraction. 

The personal preference issue is very complicated and can’t be solved through legislation or overnight but there are clearly societal causes since there are such significant differences by geography / country in mixed race interaction. But I’d settle for people just being nicer to each other as they expressed that preference. 

Somehow, I escaped it.  I'm a white boy who loves men of color.

[muscmtl]

He's muscle, he full on kiss, suck, rim, gets bred: good to go

Everything else, ESPECIALLY RACE: irrelevant 

[Shawn Monroe]

A lot of these comments are reminding me why i stopped coming in here as much. 

[jt30331]

9 hours ago, DWnyc said:

I heard from more than one white friend (clients) who have said something on the lines of, given stereotypes of higher rates of crime (violence, drug use etc) among African Americans, they will avoid that demographic in providers since such meetings are already fraught with risks.

These "higher rates of crime" are often mental/verbal cover for racist/prejudicial attitudes on the part of your friends/clients.  The stats that I have seen show that whites and blacks are head to head in relation to arrest rates, especially those related to violent crime and drugs.  I'm sure they're not citing stats that justify their racism/beliefs with you; and if they are, which are they citing?  

 

[DWnyc]

59 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

Somehow, I escaped it.  I'm a white boy who loves men of color.

That’s great, anecdotally.

Societal trends dictate expectations, however. And learned behavior, to conform or just get through each day often gravitates to those.

Change, leadership, innovation … in all aspects of our world,  usually come from those who, as you put it, escape the norm.

So here’s to more of you!

[DWnyc]

18 minutes ago, jt30331 said:

These "higher rates of crime" are often mental/verbal cover for racist/prejudicial attitudes on the part of your friends/clients.  The stats that I have seen show that whites and blacks are head to head in relation to arrest rates, especially those related to violent crime and drugs.  I'm sure they're not citing stats that justify their racism/beliefs with you; and if they are, which are they citing?  

 

Sure, but no one is having an intellectual argument citing references with their gut when making choices based on what has been internalized over years … maybe ones whole life.

 

[Rudynate]

5 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

That’s great, anecdotally.

Societal trends dictate expectations, however. And learned behavior, to conform or just get through each day often gravitates to those.

Change, leadership, innovation … in all aspects of our world,  usually come from those who, as you put it, escape the norm.

So here’s to more of you!

No, I don't claim to have solved the problem of race in the US.  I think, as long as we have the notion of "race," there will be a race problem. 

[DWnyc]

I’m just remembering an anecdote from someone I met socially who was a provider, and Asian American.

He said his “provider profile” was that he was a visitor (note, not an immigrant) from Thailand, with an accent. That got him more clients, repeats, higher rates etc than being what he was Ie a kid from california who happened to be of Asian descent.