Sensitive topic - race and rates

[+ DrownedBoy]

I have a question that I really need to ask providers.

Is their an informal "tier" of different rates in the U.S. due to race? And how open are people in discussing that?

I ask because I've read comments here about Caucasians making more than minorities. Likewise, I had an Asian provider flat out say that as an Asian, he makes much less than other providers.

I'm not calling anyone racist for their preferences when hiring. I'm just curious, as the vast majority of my partners (hires or dating) aren't Caucasian.

[Shawn Monroe]

While it’s not the only thing that comes into play for rates, I feel like you are correct. 
 

sometimes I look at the way some providers of certain races are talked about here, and compare it to their rates and services, and I’m floored that they’re able to charge what they do.
 

And It can feel like I have to do more for less (for lack of better wording). 
 

granted I can’t speak for minorities of other races, but speaking as a black man you’re correct. 

[+ José Soplanucas]

People of Color have to work harder and for less money than their White brothers and sisters in most professions, not only in escorting. 

[LostUpstate]

I’m surprised, I would expect to pay the same rate regardless of race. Then again, I like all flavors- white, Hispanic, black, Asian! It’s not the race that is the attraction, it’s the individual for me. All the guys on my current hiring “wishlist” right now are either black, Asian or Hispanic. When I get my income tax refund…

[DWnyc]

I’ve heard that there is an effective tier just as there may be based on age and some other factors. And that clients are more likely to haggle with providers or color, both before and after making an appointment. 

I’ve also heard from more than one provider of color that they feel clients can be more demanding / punitive / rude when things don’t go as planned eg they are held more accountable on being late, not being able to perform, pics not regarded as accurate etc. And that clients are more likely to be flakey / cancel at last minute etc. with them.
 

Difficult to verify but I would say the perception is definitely there.

 

 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

When I visited Puerto Vallarta, I found people of white color who were visiting for an extended stay often had lower rates than local Latin men who were established.

When I visited some parts of the U.S. South and Midwest, I have found men with the largest advertised penis sizes tend to have higher rates.  This may correlate to people of black color.

I wonder if governments would consider making penis size a protected class for employment law?  Mandate the same rates for men with a smaller than average penis as those with a larger penis.  (This is in jest.  I am neither advocating for nor against a political position on equal pay for all penises).

Edited April 7, 2023 by Vegas_nw1982

[+ DrownedBoy]

4 hours ago, Simon Suraci said:

The haggling thing happens to me too, more frequently from clients who have less available to spend. The unfortunate reality is many of them are people of color

Thanks for your honesty here. In several ethnographic studies of young male prostitutes in U.S. cities, many providers admitted they avoided black clients because they were "cheap" or too demanding. Racism goes both ways, although in this case, due to economic stereotypes.

 

@DWnyc point of order. If either client or provider haggles over prices "after making an appointment," it's not "haggling." It's "a violation of a verbal contract." And to me, that means instant cancellation.

EDIT: And @Simon Suraci  I admit I'm seeing other patterns now thanks to your input. On several occasions, I've had a provider haggle with me after we agreed to a price. All of them were black. I see where these stereotypes come from.

Edited April 7, 2023 by DrownedBoy

[DWnyc]

I heard from more than one white friend (clients) who have said something on the lines of, given stereotypes of higher rates of crime (violence, drug use etc) among African Americans, they will avoid that demographic in providers since such meetings are already fraught with risks.

[+ Jamie21]

It seems this problem is more prevalent in the US. My experience is in London and I don’t see the price differential based on race here, but possibly that’s because I don’t overtly look for it. Price varies more on the age of the provider although even that doesn’t seem to have a strong correlation. I work with younger guys cheaper than me and an older guy who is more expensive. 

I think all sorts of factors influence price, including how much business the provider wants. You can use price to manage your demand and the sensible providers will do exactly that. Want to be working every day with multiple clients? Reduce the price. Want to see 2 a week? Raise it. 

I’m always surprised by clients who ask “are you ok with seeing me?”…and they send a pic. I’ve been asked do I see Asians?, and by a black woman would I see her? The answer is it doesn’t matter what your race is, unless you’re French of course (joke!!…the English love the French 😉). 

I don’t see patterns of behaviour with different race clients either. Maybe they’re there but I haven’t noticed any. There’s some nationality traits that exist…Americans are generally very polite (I love being called sir). Middle Eastern clients are usually inhibited (most of the time except just before climax!) and they won’t engage in much talk or make eye contact. I think this is because of religious guilt 🙁. 

I think making assumptions about people based on race is a way of saving time “x is black therefore he will be like this, so I won’t bother to hire him / seek him as a client”. It’s kind of normal to do that because you simply can’t get to know the real person in every interaction with people on a daily basis, so you lump them into broad categories based on what they look like. That’s when problems start. 

However, I’d argue that doing sex work is exactly your role to get to know the real person (at least to get to know what drives them sexually-  which is the most basic of human behaviours) beyond the surface of what they look like.

So if you’re a sex worker who takes the work seriously why would you not want to look beyond the superficial and see the real person underneath? If you’re doing the work properly that’s exactly what you need to do to be successful. This client here isn’t ‘black’ he’s John and your job is to find out what drives John’s sexual desire and meet it as best you can. If you do that John will come back. Guaranteed. 
 

 

 

[+ FrankR]

33 minutes ago, Jamie21 said:

The answer is it doesn’t matter what your race is, unless you’re French of course (joke!!…the English love the French 😉). 

Mon dieu! 😆

[DWnyc]

In a business that’s so unregulated and private it’s only natural that the worst of human behavior can come out. Who’s going to file a complaint? Or even gather data to address disbelief / denial of trends? 

Add to that the issue of what we call “personal preference” to allow validation as we discuss this all.  Then add further to that entitlement (eg through price differentials) and it’s inevitable these dynamics will exist.

@Jamie21 From what I know of the UK it doesn’t surprise me race is less of a factor (I think Toronto and Montreal are similar) and there’s a lot of history and baggage in the US on this issue. And within the US there’s probably difference in geography. One observation I’ve had when traveling is a lot more mixed race couples (especially black and white) of all orientations in Europe and Canada than in the US. Or look at the lines outside nightclubs (again, gay or straight) in eg London vs Chicago and you’ll see a lot more segregation (even if through personal choice).

 

 

 

 

 

[Rudynate]

53 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

In a business that’s so unregulated and private it’s only natural that the worst of human behavior can come out. Who’s going to file a complaint? Or even gather data to address disbelief / denial of trends? 

Add to that the issue of what we call “personal preference” to allow validation as we discuss this all.  Then add further to that entitlement (eg through price differentials) and it’s inevitable these dynamics will exist.

@Jamie21 From what I know of the UK it doesn’t surprise me race is less of a factor (I think Toronto and Montreal are similar) and there’s a lot of history and baggage in the US on this issue. And within the US there’s probably difference in geography. One observation I’ve had when traveling is a lot more mixed race couples (especially black and white) of all orientations in Europe and Canada than in the US. Or look at the lines outside nightclubs (again, gay or straight) in eg London vs Chicago and you’ll see a lot more segregation (even if through personal choice).

 

 

 

 

 

Every time I'm in Canada, I'm struck by the diversity. In the US, even in regions that are ethnically diverse, people tend to cluster into communities of people like themselves.   In Canada, it's much more of a mix.   

[DWnyc]

2 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

Every time I'm in Canada, I'm struck by the diversity. In the US, even in regions that are ethnically diverse, people tend to cluster into communities of people like themselves.   In Canada, it's much more of a mix.   

We have huge differences in systemic approach in US vs some of these other countries.

We have self segregation through where we live and therefore who we mix with at school, sports clubs etc and by the time were old enough to go to college or work and make our own decisions some of this becomes deeply entrenched.

And to be clear it’s not just whites vs everyone else. If you’re Asian and have never known someone African American socially … or if you’re East Indian vs Latinos etc (having a maid or gardener doesn’t count) it’s not surprising that you have “personal preference” biased against the unfamiliar, whether it’s on music, food, or sexual attraction. 

The personal preference issue is very complicated and can’t be solved through legislation or overnight but there are clearly societal causes since there are such significant differences by geography / country in mixed race interaction. But I’d settle for people just being nicer to each other as they expressed that preference. 

[Rudynate]

1 minute ago, DWnyc said:

We have huge differences in systemic approach in US vs some of these other countries.

We have self segregation through where we live and therefore who we mix with at school, sports clubs etc and by the time were old enough to go to college or work and make our own decisions some of this becomes deeply entrenched.

And to be clear it’s not just whites vs everyone else. If you’re Asian and have never known someone African American socially … or if you’re East Indian vs Latinos etc (having a maid or gardener doesn’t count) it’s not surprising that you have “personal preference” biased against the unfamiliar, whether it’s on music, food, or sexual attraction. 

The personal preference issue is very complicated and can’t be solved through legislation or overnight but there are clearly societal causes since there are such significant differences by geography / country in mixed race interaction. But I’d settle for people just being nicer to each other as they expressed that preference. 

Somehow, I escaped it.  I'm a white boy who loves men of color.

[muscmtl]

He's muscle, he full on kiss, suck, rim, gets bred: good to go

Everything else, ESPECIALLY RACE: irrelevant 

[Shawn Monroe]

A lot of these comments are reminding me why i stopped coming in here as much. 

[jt30331]

9 hours ago, DWnyc said:

I heard from more than one white friend (clients) who have said something on the lines of, given stereotypes of higher rates of crime (violence, drug use etc) among African Americans, they will avoid that demographic in providers since such meetings are already fraught with risks.

These "higher rates of crime" are often mental/verbal cover for racist/prejudicial attitudes on the part of your friends/clients.  The stats that I have seen show that whites and blacks are head to head in relation to arrest rates, especially those related to violent crime and drugs.  I'm sure they're not citing stats that justify their racism/beliefs with you; and if they are, which are they citing?  

 

[DWnyc]

59 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

Somehow, I escaped it.  I'm a white boy who loves men of color.

That’s great, anecdotally.

Societal trends dictate expectations, however. And learned behavior, to conform or just get through each day often gravitates to those.

Change, leadership, innovation … in all aspects of our world,  usually come from those who, as you put it, escape the norm.

So here’s to more of you!

[DWnyc]

18 minutes ago, jt30331 said:

These "higher rates of crime" are often mental/verbal cover for racist/prejudicial attitudes on the part of your friends/clients.  The stats that I have seen show that whites and blacks are head to head in relation to arrest rates, especially those related to violent crime and drugs.  I'm sure they're not citing stats that justify their racism/beliefs with you; and if they are, which are they citing?  

 

Sure, but no one is having an intellectual argument citing references with their gut when making choices based on what has been internalized over years … maybe ones whole life.

 

[Rudynate]

5 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

That’s great, anecdotally.

Societal trends dictate expectations, however. And learned behavior, to conform or just get through each day often gravitates to those.

Change, leadership, innovation … in all aspects of our world,  usually come from those who, as you put it, escape the norm.

So here’s to more of you!

No, I don't claim to have solved the problem of race in the US.  I think, as long as we have the notion of "race," there will be a race problem. 

[DWnyc]

I’m just remembering an anecdote from someone I met socially who was a provider, and Asian American.

He said his “provider profile” was that he was a visitor (note, not an immigrant) from Thailand, with an accent. That got him more clients, repeats, higher rates etc than being what he was Ie a kid from california who happened to be of Asian descent. 

[DWnyc]

3 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

No, I don't claim to have solved the problem of race in the US.  I think, as long as we have the notion of "race," there will be a race problem. 

To be fair to us all in America, I can’t think of a single country I’m aware of that doesn’t have deep faultlines on all sorts of issues once you scratch the surface.

We also have very positive national traits of openness and allowing self criticism, so we talk about all this a lot more. Easy to fall into a trap of seeing ourselves as doomed or worse than elsewhere, but I don’t think that’s the case. 

[jt30331]

10 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

Sure, but no one is having an intellectual argument citing references with their gut when making choices based on what has been internalized over years … maybe ones whole life.

 

All I'm saying is that they're verbalizing the fact that they're stereotyping blacks, and trying to justify it with bullshit.  As you say, these are your "friends", so obviously you're totally free to do what you want.  However, I don't entertain or co-sign conversations that clearly are bigoted toward entire race (or races) of people.  I don't want people to confuse a silence and/or a listening ear with agreement.  

[Rudynate]

45 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

I’m just remembering an anecdote from someone I met socially who was a provider, and Asian American.

He said his “provider profile” was that he was a visitor (note, not an immigrant) from Thailand, with an accent. That got him more clients, repeats, higher rates etc than being what he was Ie a kid from california who happened to be of Asian descent. 

I have never made a formal study, but if you look at ethnic preferences in profiles on hookup sites, it seems fairly common for guys to list just about every ethnicity EXCEPT Asian.  

[+ José Soplanucas]

When we point to structural racism as a challenge, there is always some oblivious/racist idiot saying:

What? But I am color blinded!