In The Closet? A Topic For Discussion

[+ purplekow]

Just now, Wings246 said:

This statement resonates so much with me.  I suppose I need a reason to change my status quo.  Finding / Having the right person will be the perfect push & reason I need to be honest.  The problem, though, is that it's more difficult to find / meet the right person if I continue to stay in the closet.  Is this the classic example of a the chicken-or-egg paradox?  Which one needs to come first?   😅

It seems no one is coming at all.  Time and tide wait for no man in or out of the closet.  

[Rudynate]

6 minutes ago, Wings246 said:

This statement resonates so much with me.  I suppose I need a reason to change my status quo.  Finding / Having the right person will be the perfect push & reason I need to be honest.  The problem, though, is that it's more difficult to find / meet the right person if I continue to stay in the closet.  Is this the classic example of a the chicken-or-egg paradox?  Which one needs to come first?   😅

I think about the line from Auntie Mame - "When you're from Pittsburgh, you've got to do something."  So, do something, anything that moves you in the right direction.

[Km411]

53 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Thats what MOST parents care about most.

As the parent of a Bi son I can say that is what I care most about.

[pubic_assistance]

37 minutes ago, Km411 said:

As the parent of a Bi son I can say that is what I care most about.

My children have all been raised to prioritize trust, caring, and honesty in all relationships. Who they date, is not my business. HOW and WHY they date, definitely is.

[+ Charlie]

I think that most parents would rather that their child have a stable relationship with one person they like, of whichever gender, than promiscuous sex with multiple persons they don't know, of whichever gender. I think of "coming out" to family as simply explaining which gender one is sexually attracted to, rather than explaining all about whatever kind of sexual activity one actually engages in. I certainly would never have told my parents about gay bath-houses or sex parties, or the kinds of experiences that are usually discussed on this site, any more than I would have told them if I patronized female prostitutes.

Remember: "coming out" is explanation, not confession.

Edited May 26 by Charlie

[Danny-Darko]

1 hour ago, Charlie said:

I think that most parents would rather that their child have a stable relationship with one person they like, of whichever gender, than promiscuous sex with multiple persons they don't know, of whichever gender. I think of "coming out" to family as simply explaining which gender one is sexually attracted to, rather than explaining all about whatever kind of sexual activity one actually engages in. I certainly would never have told my parents about gay bath-houses or sex parties, or the kinds of experiences that are usually discussed on this site, any more than I would have told them if I patronized female prostitutes.

Remember: "coming out" is explanation, not confession.

I agree with you but that's a VERY modern perspective. Maybe now days but certainly not back in my days 60 plus years ago! 

[+ Charlie]

38 minutes ago, Danny-Darko said:

I agree with you but that's a VERY modern perspective. Maybe now days but certainly not back in my days 60 plus years ago! 

Well, I actually did come out to my parents more than 60 years ago. My point is that you should not feel like you are confessing to a sin when you come out, but are simply explaining to them a situation about which they are confused. If you or they feel that it is a sin that you have revealed, that is a separate problem to be dealt with.

[Danny-Darko]

1 hour ago, Charlie said:

Well, I actually did come out to my parents more than 60 years ago. My point is that you should not feel like you are confessing to a sin when you come out, but are simply explaining to them a situation about which they are confused. If you or they feel that it is a sin that you have revealed, that is a separate problem to be dealt with.

Then I must say you had VERY progressive and openminded parents! Glad for you then. Many of us were not that lucky. And there is a reason us older gay men suffered from guilt and some still do, and many have never gotten over it. I can attest to that from gay group therapy groups. What you say Charles is how it should be, and not necessarily how it is for may men and women who grew up same sex attracted decades and centuries ago.  

Edited May 26 by Danny-Darko

[+ Charlie]

10 hours ago, Danny-Darko said:

Then I must say you had VERY progressive and openminded parents! Glad for you then. Many of us were not that lucky. And there is a reason us older gay men suffered from guilt and some still do, and many have never gotten over it. I can attest to that from gay group therapy groups. What you say Charles is how it should be, and not necessarily how it is for may men and women who grew up same sex attracted decades and centuries ago.  

My parents were active Christian Republicans whose highest academic degree was a high school diploma. In retrospect, it does seem unusual they were able to fairly easily adapt to having a son and a son-in-law rather than a daughter-in-law. My father's family fit the same definition, yet in the early 20th century they also seemed able to accept Cousin Fred and his "special friend." I don't know what it was about their backgrounds that made them so rational about homosexuality, because to me they always seemed quite conservative on other subjects. I personally knew at least one family member in each generation who was homosexual.

Edited May 26 by Charlie

[+ sync]

It's a curious thing.  My maternal grandmother was a very "with it" and "now" individual while her daughter (my mom) was very conservative (aside from that she was perfect).

[+ purplekow]

31 minutes ago, sync said:

It's a curious thing.  My maternal grandmother was a very "with it" and "now" individual while her daughter (my mom) was very conservative (aside from that she was perfect).

So Mrs. Lincoln...other than that, how was the play?

[+ sync]

2 minutes ago, purplekow said:

So Mrs. Lincoln...other than that, how was the play?

The surprise ending put the theme over the top.

[Danny-Darko]

7 hours ago, Charlie said:

My parents were active Christian Republicans whose highest academic degree was a high school diploma. In retrospect, it does seem unusual they were able to fairly easily adapt to having a son and a son-in-law rather than a daughter-in-law. My father's family fit the same definition, yet in the early 20th century they also seemed able to accept Cousin Fred and his "special friend." I don't know what it was about their backgrounds that made them so rational about homosexuality, because to me they always seemed quite conservative on other subjects. I personally knew at least one family member in each generation who was homosexual.

Very commendable, and if I may say so very cosmopolitan and worldly of them way before the times. I've said it before, you've lived a marvelous and fascinating life Charles and had a family most of us could only dream of. 

[+ Charlie]

Perhaps the key to acceptance was the fact that there always seemed to be some integral family members who were gay. I mentioned that I knew others in my extended family. I knew my father's Cousin Fred and his "special friend" when I was young. I had my own Cousin Fred on my mother's side of the family: he was a very discreet high school principal, and his family knew that his marriage of convenience to a female teacher was strictly platonic for both of them, because he was really attracted to young men. His younger sister, my Cousin Phyllis, was not discreet: she and her lesbian partner were active in the gay rights movement. Fred's and Phyllis's only sibling who was straight was their younger brother. On my mother's side there was also my Cousin Pete, a retired Navy officer, who was happily married to his wife, and his only daughter is also happily married to her wife. To be strongly anti-gay, the family would have had to reject too many beloved members.

[+ Lucky]

I am glad to see that my thread took off despite my earlier apprehensions. Thanks to all who have contributed and will contribute. I don't know if this has been made clear, but I believe that you have to come out to yourself before you can come out to others. And by that I mean stop the denial, look yourself in the mirror, and say something like

I AM GAY AND THAT's JUST THE WAY I WANT IT.

[+ Charlie]

Re-reading this long thread, I have to say that Lucky's final comment is a nice summation, but as usual I hate to drop a subject that really interests me. Lucky and I happen to live in a physical community (Palm Springs) where it is easy to be openly--even vociferously--gay to all our neighbors, but I am sure that there are plenty of people on this site who don't have that kind of outside support. As one of the elders here (ahem!), I came out in an era when that kind of community didn't exist anywhere in the US, so I am glad that we have an online community here where we can all reveal ourselves and our experiences to one another, even if we need to do it under pseudonyms. (Full confession: no one actually knows me as "Charlie" except for the members of Company of Men.) Please feel free to keep adding your comments to this or related topics.

[+ Charlie]

My late spouse was one of four brothers, born in the 1930s and 40s to parents in a conservative Midwestern town, where they were sent to the local Catholic high school where their aunt was the principal. Two of the boys were straight and two were gay. The two older boys were small and not interested in sports, while the two younger brothers were big muscular football players. An outsider who was asked to guess which brothers were gay would probably go with the stereotypes and guess it was the older brothers--and they would be right! All of them went to college and were reasonably successful in very different careers: an architect, a lawyer, a co-owner of a construction company, and a vice-president of a major auto manufacturer. All of them had happy marriages, the older two of them to men and the younger two to women. Three of them eventually left their hometown, the gay brothers to major eastern cities and the youngest to a couple of major cities in the mid-west and southwest.  Only the oldest had no children or step-children. 

How did their parents react to their sons' expressed orientations? Well, their father died before the gay older brothers officially came out, but he certainly must have suspected something; however, he never openly expressed his feelings to them about the fact that they never had girlfriends, and he was obviously not happy about one of the straight brother's choice of a wife. Their mother outlived their father for many years, and interestingly, she often seemed to have warmer relationships with her gay sons-in-law than with her daughters-in-law.  The gay and straight brothers remained as close as they had been when they were kids, and their spouses were civil to one another, although one of the wives was rather stand-offish (she had a fundamentalist Christian background and didn't really approve of legalized gay marriages). 

If you have wondered why I have laid all of this out, it's because I am fascinated by the possibilities in the dynamics of coming out, especially now that gays have the same legal rights to marry that straight people have. I was an only child. When I came out to my parents in 1962, I never imagined that I could eventually have a husband, mother-in-law, gay and straight brothers-in-law, straight sisters-in-law, nieces and nephews, step-niece and nephew, etc., and all the complications that come with those relationships.  

 

 

[+ azdr0710]

gee, I didn't know if I'd posted in this thread, so had to scroll through it.....nope......a little bit 'TMI' coming up, I guess....sorry!!

many here know me from various in-person social meets and others here know me well from only messaging.......

still very much in the closet now (age early 60s)......never had a relationship and never really wanted one (parents not always getting along might have contributed to that??).....have told only some very 'safe' (discreet) friends:  mostly bisexual females, a therapist, my doctor.....no straight male or female friends have been told outright at all......I'm sure many I know suspect by now, but I'm known to be a low-key, decent, honest guy and, though they might wonder and may talk amongst themselves, they probably assume I'm just happy living alone and doing things on my own......when we all hang out, nobody asks me about a current girlfriend or my dating habits.....

lived in a conservative, though definitely not holy roller religious, background through end of childhood.....parents were smart/savvy and both quietly atheist, but we all dutifully went to Methodist ("Baptists who can read") church occasionally for the social aspect and to keep my parents' parents happy, I suppose.....no hellfire "gay is a sin" that I remember at all.....church never really was important to us and I abandoned it by high school or so.....I think my Mom clung to claiming to be agnostic "just in case"...... 

even by 7th grade (12 y.o.), I hadn't yet realized social norms and 'how to act'.....I was not at all a wild kid, pretty much behaved myself, and did very well in school, probably so I wouldn't disappoint my parents.....had not yet learned about gay/straight/what-have-you.....I evidently was still behaving without concern for appearances because it was in 7th grade (upscale private school) that one (just one) classmate started the teasing/bullying thing (nothing physical).......it was new to me, but not at all mentally scaring and I didn't quite understand what it meant.... probably realized there was something going on with me that wasn't 'the norm', though, because it was in 7th grade when I was able to acquire a Playgirl magazine and noticed how good-looking an 8th-grader (already thru puberty) was when he emerged from the shower after gym....

fearful of busing (remember that?!) and always chasing good schools, my parents moved us to another state with a supposed excellent public school system before my 8th grade year (the private school didn't impress them, I guess??)......8th grade in a new state wasn't good at all for me.....still not realizing how a 13-year-old boy should act in front of peers, I went thru some fairly rough bullying/teasing (verbal, nothing physical) at school and you can imagine how my parents felt about this supposed nationally-recognized wealthy school district we had just moved into......my parents had a meeting with the principal and things improved just a bit, but I started to retreat/shut down a bit....

high school (9th-12th grades) was a good bit improved......we were all 'grown-ups' now and started to act it a bit.....I still was a bit socially awkward and now careful about 'mannerisms' and all that......a bit reserved and quiet, I bumped along with a few decent friends until graduation....no dating at all......no wild parties attended or arrests (still didn't want to disappoint my parents!)......where was my Dad to teach me how to act like a man??!!......other than gone half the time day and night (airline captain), I think, with my smarts and not making trouble, he was happy to just let me grow up and evolve......   

attended and graduated college and, of course, all were in full adult mode and well past the immature bullying era.......had cool (straight) room-/house-mates who had fun until 'closing time' and fucked in the next room all the time while I still didn't date and dutifully went to class and went to bed fairly early......joined a social fraternity and that was pretty fun, but I wasn't one of the wild and crazy guys......a couple of the bros were evidently gay and I gravitated to hanging out with them, but was still reserved and non-committal.....by the end of college, I was in full 'denial' mode, still not dating, and resigned to the fact that I'd probably just go thru life working, hanging out with platonic friends (male and female, all straight, of course!), pursuing my own interests on the weekends.....and never dating......the earlier bullying (though by now a bit of an old memory), general societal pressure and norms, and (yup!) still not wanting to disappoint my parents (and, now, my friends) turned me off from any grand "coming out" plans......

some here may be upset that I never went thru the tough process of a formal coming out and reconciling all that that entails.....many people have told me we each handle our own story in our own way and some may think I'm just chickening out ......the therapist (tried some gay counseling at one point) I mentioned earlier told me I'm 100% suffering from internalized homophobia (very much NOT the same as homophobia!!) and that seems true....probably explains the fear of coming out, of course, and my general resistance to the 'scene'  .....that therapist also encouraged me to participate in gay/bi social settings and the like (among other efforts, this forum has been part of that for many years)......yes, I realize this seems to many of you like silly baby steps at this point, but we each have a story.......    

Edited Sunday at 05:47 AM by azdr0710

[Nue2thegame]

9 hours ago, azdr0710 said:

gee, I didn't know if I'd posted in this thread, so had to scroll through it.....nope......a little bit 'TMI' coming up, I guess....sorry!!

many here know me from various in-person social meets and others here know me well from only messaging.......

still very much in the closet now (age early 60s)......never had a relationship and never really wanted one (parents not always getting along might have contributed to that??).....have told only some very 'safe' (discreet) friends:  mostly bisexual females, a therapist, my doctor.....no straight male or female friends have been told outright at all......I'm sure many I know suspect by now, but I'm known to be a low-key, decent, honest guy and, though they might wonder and may talk amongst themselves, they probably assume I'm just happy living alone and doing things on my own......when we all hang out, nobody asks me about a current girlfriend or my dating habits.....

lived in a conservative, though definitely not holy roller religious, background through end of childhood.....parents were smart/savvy and both quietly atheist, but we all dutifully went to Methodist ("Baptists who can read") church occasionally for the social aspect and to keep my parents' parents happy, I suppose.....no hellfire "gay is a sin" that I remember at all.....church never really was important to us and I abandoned it by high school or so.....I think my Mom clung to claiming to be agnostic "just in case"...... 

even by 7th grade (12 y.o.), I hadn't yet realized social norms and 'how to act'.....I was not at all a wild kid, pretty much behaved myself, and did very well in school, probably so I wouldn't disappoint my parents.....had not yet learned about gay/straight/what-have-you.....I evidently was still behaving without concern for appearances because it was in 7th grade (upscale private school) that one (just one) classmate started the teasing/bullying thing (nothing physical).......it was new to me, but not at all mentally scaring and I didn't quite understand what it meant.... probably realized there was something going on with me that wasn't 'the norm', though, because it was in 7th grade when I was able to acquire a Playgirl magazine and noticed how good-looking an 8th-grader (already thru puberty) was when he emerged from the shower after gym....

fearful of busing (remember that?!) and always chasing good schools, my parents moved us to another state with a supposed excellent public school system before my 8th grade year (the private school didn't impress them, I guess??)......8th grade in a new state wasn't good at all for me.....still not realizing how a 13-year-old boy should act in front of peers, I went thru some fairly rough bullying/teasing (verbal, nothing physical) at school and you can imagine how my parents felt about this supposed nationally-recognized wealthy school district we had just moved into......my parents had a meeting with the principal and things improved just a bit, but I started to retreat/shut down a bit....

high school (9th-12th grades) was a good bit improved......we were all 'grown-ups' now and started to act it a bit.....I still was a bit socially awkward and now careful about 'mannerisms' and all that......a bit reserved and quiet, I bumped along with a few decent friends until graduation....no dating at all......no wild parties attended or arrests (still didn't want to disappoint my parents!)......where was my Dad to teach me how to act like a man??!!......other than gone half the time day and night (airline captain), I think, with my smarts and not making trouble, he was happy to just let me grow up and evolve......   

attended and graduated college and, of course, all were in full adult mode and well past the immature bullying era.......had cool (straight) room-/house-mates who had fun until 'closing time' and fucked in the next room all the time while I still didn't date and dutifully went to class and went to bed fairly early......joined a social fraternity and that was pretty fun, but I wasn't one of the wild and crazy guys......a couple of the bros were evidently gay and I gravitated to hanging out with them, but was still reserved and non-committal.....by the end of college, I was in full 'denial' mode, still not dating, and resigned to the fact that I'd probably just go thru life working, hanging out with platonic friends (male and female, all straight, of course!), pursuing my own interests on the weekends.....and never dating......the earlier bullying (though by now a bit of an old memory), general societal pressure and norms, and (yup!) still not wanting to disappoint my parents (and, now, my friends) turned me off from any grand "coming out" plans......

some here may be upset that I never went thru the tough process of a formal coming out and reconciling all that that entails.....many people have told me we each handle our own story in our own way and some may think I'm just chickening out ......the therapist (tried some gay counseling at one point) I mentioned earlier told me I'm 100% suffering from internalized homophobia (very much NOT the same as homophobia!!) and that seems true....probably explains the fear of coming out, of course, and my general resistance to the 'scene'  .....that therapist also encouraged me to participate in gay/bi social settings and the like (among other efforts, this forum has been part of that for many years)......yes, I realize this seems to many of you like silly baby steps at this point, but we each have a story.......    

Fascinating and informative. Your path clearly worked for you. Thanks for sharing this. 

[mtaabq]

@Km411 When I saw your 1st post, saying that you would never be able to write about it (coming out), I felt so sad. Then I kept reading postings and scrolling through and there was @Km411 sharing his story! That made me so happy! Like the sun shining from behind a cloud. 

I’m grateful to EVERYONE who has added to this conversation. 

At 29 years of age (I am 61 now) I decided “F**k it!” and made the decision to stop changing my pronouns. I didn’t feel it necessary to make an announcement, I simply started using “he” and “him” and saying “my boyfriend”. And no one batted an eye. Probably because, behind my back, everyone was saying, “For God’s sake! Doesn’t Mike know he’s GAY?” 🤣  My parents dealt with - and accepted -  “the issue” long before I did. To this day I have never said “I’m gay” to my parents. Why overstate the obvious? 🤣 Everyone’s path is different and although I was tortured and tormented in junior high and high school (and in Church youth groups no less) I really didn’t have it so bad. Of course, the alcohol helped but THAT is a subject for another thread. 

As an aside, a moment of revelation occurred when, at 50, I took my 23 year-old boyfriend to Palm Springs for the 1st time. We went to VillageFest where it was over-populated by same-sex couples holding hands. The BF grabbed my hand and, due to my age and experience, I reflexively pulled my hand away. He got very upset. “You CAN’T refuse to hold my hand. We’re safe here.” Amazing how times change. At 50 I still felt the need to be discreet and careful, but a 23 year-old had no such compunction. He wanted to hold hands with his boyfriend. (We are no longer together but I will ALWAYS remember that moment.) He had his own issues being gay in a family of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but it’s not my place to tell his story. 

Edited Sunday at 05:21 PM by mtaabq
I’m very OCD. The punctuation wasn’t correct.

[+ SidewaysDM]

I find all of the stories in this thread to be incredibly helpful and inspirational. Being a 64 year old, closeted gay man, to all family and friends, and married to my wife for 25 years, we have no children. All of my family and friends are conservative evangelical Christians. I truly have felt alone in this struggle with my sexuality. It is my two providers, who have been supportive and kind, to an older man, exploring his true sexuality. I am beyond grateful for this awesome online community of men who are braver, more gifted and better men, than I will ever be. Thank you for all the helpful information and stories, this community shares on a daily basis. It gives me the courage to go on, and find hope and support, as I figure out how I may someday come out to everyone.