Sensitive topic - race and rates

[+ Lucky]

So, @Jamie21, if a British person offers me tea, do I have to drink it? I hate tea.

[Jamie21]

17 minutes ago, Lucky said:

So, @Jamie21, if a British person offers me tea, do I have to drink it? I hate tea.

No you don’t. You can politely decline, although they will make all sorts of judgments about you if you decline tea. Best to say ‘oh yes I could murder a cuppa’ and then sip it slowly until it’s too cold to drink while you discuss the weather, and then you can say ‘oh what a shame my tea has gone cold…anyway lovely to chat but I must dash, cheerio!’ and then you leave. They’ll love you because you had tea, you discussed the weather and then you left them without over staying your welcome. 

[DWnyc]

7 hours ago, Quartz said:

I can relate to this as an Asian guy. I don’t think I’m bad looking, but I struggle to pull in dates from Grindr and related apps, whereas my friend who’s white has dates lined up literally every day in a single week, sometimes twice in a single day. (He had just undergone a breakup and was diving headfirst into the dating pool.)

My partner who’s also white has more frequent chats with people from Grindr than me. I’ve grown to accept this pecking order in American society and be content with the quality few friends I’ve made through the apps, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t sting when I see non-Asian friends who have significantly more successes meeting on the apps than I do.

It’s also why I’m starting to explore hiring tbh.

Don’t assume though that those having more conversations are having more fun. In the shallow fickle jarring world of online apps that also means more blocks, ghosting, rudeness when things don’t go someone’s way etc. 

If this issue is promoting you to explore hiring more, just have your antenna up for this very issue. I’ve heard from PoC friends that every so often they feel bullied by providers on this issue, probably because they reveal their vulnerability on the subject too much. Most providers are great, and you won’t have to worry about this, but pay attention to the discussions on here on eg asking for photos, negotiating on price, top service vs being rushed out the door etc and how that can differ for some. 

[DWnyc]

4 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

No you don’t. You can politely decline, although they will make all sorts of judgments about you if you decline tea. Best to say ‘oh yes I could murder a cuppa’ and then sip it slowly until it’s too cold to drink while you discuss the weather, and then you can say ‘oh what a shame my tea has gone cold…anyway lovely to chat but I must dash, cheerio!’ and then you leave. They’ll love you because you had tea, you discussed the weather and then you left them without over staying your welcome. 

Isn’t “tea” also one of the classes word for a meal as a whole?  

[Simon Suraci]

5 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

oh yes I could murder a cuppa’ and then sip it slowly until it’s too cold to drink while you discuss the weather

Yes! It’s part of engaging another culture. Remember, Americans, you’re on their turf wherever you may be visiting outside the US. Their norms are what matter when you’re visiting a different place, so educate yourselves and be open minded.

In Morocco, I had many a cup of mint tea with the merchants while shopping in the souks. I actually love mint tea even with all the sugar Moroccans typically add to match my equally sweet tooth, but I understood that this was part of the business culture. It’s just  what you do! It would be rude to refuse. Also, I got a lot of great deals that way. Price negotiation is also part of their culture and honestly, for me, part of the fun. I treasure those experiences.

[Jamie21]

1 hour ago, DWnyc said:

Isn’t “tea” also one of the classes word for a meal as a whole?  

It is! 

[+ DrownedBoy]

Just a reminder from my OP - we do have a lot of studies (ethnographic) on this area, but only from the provider PoV. They make interesting reading.

You can find a LOT of these on the Internet; I found these 2 the best:

Surviving the Streets of New York: Experiences of LGBTQ Youth, YMSM, and YWSW Engaged in Survival Sex (urban.org)

Chicago_0.pdf (innovatingjustice.org)

The NYC study really delved into the issue of race. One brutally honest quote from an interview with a provider:

Quote

"I don’t like messing with black guys because from my experience they are always cheap. I hate the fact that I like have to tell the truth. This is stereotypical, but it is statistical for a prostitute you know. What I’m saying is, most of them are Caucasian. When it comes to white guys, right; you can say oh it’s 200 for the hour, right? You can get them to come over 200 for the hour, and then you can have then in there for 15 minutes. A black guy will be like; no I paid you for an hour."

 

[Rocca]

In my experience, I have not seen much variation in price based on race or color. I have seen variation in price based on age, and maybe fitness level. Ive seen older men charge a little less, and Ive seen older men who aren’t as fit charge less. 
Guys with model/actor looks are going to charge about the same black or white. Guys with average looks charge about the same black or white.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Rocca

[Jaroslav]

Race (age, wealth, education, weight, etc) should be immaterial since rate is allegedly strictly for time. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Jaroslav

[Quincy_7]

Sometimes I see "white" listed as a selling point in an ad, e.g. "young, fit and white" or something like that. Conversely, I've also seen some black providers do the equivalent on their profiles.

The race of the provider can be a selling point depending on the client.

[+ Lucky]

18 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

It is! 

Happy Birthday @Jamie21

[+ Pensant]

Let me echo that acclamation: Happy Birthday, Jamie! Another poster I’d love to meet someday.

[rojjodc]

13 hours ago, Jaroslav said:

Race (age, wealth, education, weight, etc) should be immaterial since rate is allegedly strictly for time. 

The profiles of the clients willing to pay is the major factor.  They generate the demand.  So, race, along with age, weight, and other factors that influence perceived 'desirability', are material based on client's desires and their profile (wealth, age, race, etc.).  

[Simon Suraci]

1 hour ago, Pensant said:

Jamie! Another poster I’d love to meet someday.

Me too. I’d love to have tea with @Jamie21 someday.

I didn’t realize it was your birthday. Happy birthday!

[DWnyc]

2 hours ago, Lucky said:

Happy Birthday @Jamie21

Jamie22 for the next 12 months 

[DWnyc]

12 hours ago, Quincy_7 said:

Sometimes I see "white" listed as a selling point in an ad, e.g. "young, fit and white" or something like that. Conversely, I've also seen some black providers do the equivalent on their profiles.

The race of the provider can be a selling point depending on the client.

Agreed.

However there is difference in the association with exclusion when these identities are proudly stated.

This is why most US colleges will have an African American or Hispanic or Asian etc student club but not one for whites, primarily because there is no need when the entire campus, not to mention the country, is open to them and when no effort is needed to find demographic peers.  

To paraphrase Matt Damon’s character in The Good Shepherd, “the rest of you are just visiting”.  Now I don’t believe that … America is perhaps the greatest example of constantly welcoming and empowering incredible diversity, but it neatly sums up a lot of attitudes and realities. And that’s why it matters how and why difference and preference is expressed. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by DWnyc

[Jamie21]

2 hours ago, DWnyc said:

Jamie22 for the next 12 months 

Ha ha 22 was years ago! 

[caramelsub]

I’m a person of color, not to say people of color can’t be racist,  because that isn’t true. So I’m going to be honest. I’ve never been sexually attracted to an oriental man. I’ve never been with an oriental man. Or even liked watching oriental porn. I love them as people, and friends, and their culture, but not in a sexual way. I’ve been around orientals since childhood, as I am in an artistic field that is dominated by people of the orient. I am however attracted to Indian men, and recently started watching some great gay Indian porn. (That is why I said oriental instead of Asian, not to be derogatory) But I’m sure a lot of gay Asian men aren’t into black/African men either. Has nothing to do with being racist it’s just what turns you on. Racism is about respect.

Edited April 18, 2023 by caramelsub

[+ jessmapex]

On 4/16/2023 at 3:53 AM, Quartz said:

I can relate to this as an Asian guy. I don’t think I’m bad looking, but I struggle to pull in dates from Grindr and related apps, whereas my friend who’s white has dates lined up literally every day in a single week, sometimes twice in a single day. (He had just undergone a breakup and was diving headfirst into the dating pool.)

My partner who’s also white has more frequent chats with people from Grindr than me. I’ve grown to accept this pecking order in American society and be content with the quality few friends I’ve made through the apps, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t sting when I see non-Asian friends who have significantly more successes meeting on the apps than I do.

It’s also why I’m starting to explore hiring tbh.

I bet a big percentage of guys chatting with your partner are Asians themselves ! 

Before Grindr etc there was gay.com chat in the 90s. I experimented on some of those channels by creating profiles with identical physical stats, but different races. Guess which profile attracted most chats? 

This is not exclusive to gay dating or escorting. Similar experiments have been done by researchers with professional resumes also and the results are similar.

Yes, it is a fact of life. We have to accept it and move on. There is no one to blame and it's no one's fault. 

It took hundreds of thousands of years for humans to look different after we left our common ancestral land in equatorial Africa. But now we are connected and mixing and matching. It will take an equal amount of time for us to look alike or, at least, to see everyone the same way,  if we are still around.

[Marc in Calif]

3 hours ago, caramelsub said:

I’m a person of color, not to say people of color can’t be racist,  because that isn’t true. So I’m going to be honest. I’ve never been sexually attracted to an oriental man. I’ve never been with an oriental man. Or even liked watching oriental porn. I love them as people, and friends, and their culture, but not in a sexual way. I’ve been around orientals since childhood, as I am in an artistic field that is dominated by people of the orient. I am however attracted to Indian men, and recently started watching some great gay Indian porn. (That is why I said oriental instead of Asian, not to be derogatory) But I’m sure a lot of gay Asian men aren’t into black/African men either. Has nothing to do with being racist it’s just what turns you on. Racism is about respect.

Just an added note to your comments: 

You seem to be using the traditional British terms "Oriental" and "Asian." 

"Oriental" in British English has generally referred to East Asian and Southeast Asian. But it is now often replaced by "Asian" when referring to people (but not to businesses and restaurants). In the US, on the other hand, the term "Oriental" now has a very distinctly pejorative sense.

In Britain, "Asian" has traditionally been reserved for referring to South Asians -- Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Nepali, and others on the subcontinent. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Marc in Calif

[Rocca]

On 4/17/2023 at 6:38 AM, Quincy_7 said:

Sometimes I see "white" listed as a selling point in an ad, e.g. "young, fit and white" or something like that. Conversely, I've also seen some black providers do the equivalent on their profiles.

If I see “hot, fit & Black” in an ad, im ready to hire.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Rocca

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

1 hour ago, Marc in Calif said:

Just an added note to your comments: 

You seem to be using the traditional British terms "Oriental" and "Asian." 

"Oriental" in British English has generally referred to East Asian and Southeast Asian. But it is now often replaced by "Asian" when referring to people (but not to businesses and restaurants). In the US, on the other hand, the term "Oriental" now has a very distinctly pejorative sense.

In Britain, "Asian" has traditionally been reserved for referring to South Asians -- Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Nepali, and others on the subcontinent. 

What is the preferred term for people from North Asia?  And does the term differ when used by Britains, Americans, Orientals, South Asians, or Middle Easterners?  Or are Russians included when referring to Asians?

Edited April 19, 2023 by Vegas777

[DWnyc]

4 hours ago, caramelsub said:

But I’m sure a lot of gay Asian men aren’t into black/African men either. Has nothing to do with being racist it’s just what turns you on. Racism is about respect.

I don’t believe we are debating sexual preference based on race here. That’s a valid topic but different. 

We are talking about if trends exist in market rates based on race, driven by different treatment of providers based on their race. And that is tied to your closing statement on respect. 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

So far, I have spent the most on my Latin ex boyfriend, followed by my Oriental ex boyfriend, then my African ex boyfriends, then my northern European ex boyfriends.

None of them had a rate posted when we started dating.  It's just what they cost me over time.

[DWnyc]

2 hours ago, Vegas777 said:

So far, I have spent the most on my Latin ex boyfriend, followed by my Oriental ex boyfriend, then my African ex boyfriends, then my northern European ex boyfriends.

None of them had a rate posted when we started dating.  It's just what they cost me over time.

Everything is a negotiation at the end of the day …