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Client Etiquette: Don’t ask how much, and then say it’s too much…


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14 hours ago, Decatur Guy said:

Are you aware that potential clients can't see your rates in the United States on RentMen?

lots of US ads on rentmen show rates - not sure whether admin actively removes them tho.
the rate thing seems a little ridiculous as the entire RM concept is about hiring “pornstars” or “masseurs”  

does not showing rates somehow make it less about hiring ? 

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I think rates posted can be somewhat general and may not cover any or all requests for service.

If your rate is $300/ hr. clearly you shouldn't be discussing a reduced rate for a hand job...but it might open up a discussion for what may be or may not be included in that hour for $300 and what might be à la carte

Edited by pubic_assistance
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Here's the bottom line: I hire off RM. Nothing else. If the provider has written a good ad, I have all the info I need except: rates. It doesn't have them. I'm not looking for a massage on RM. I'd go to a Masseur site for that. Therefore, I MUST ask the rate to know the rate. I CANNOT see it otherwise and I CANNOT read minds.

If someone can't reply to this:

Good afternoon. I just saw your profile on RM and liked it and your pictures, especially the one of you in your suit. May ask I your hourly in/out rates? Thank you.

And if someone finds that too much of burden reply to, well, we don't need to meet up anyway. I'm about to pay someone more than a day's worth of pay, and this is already too much to deal with? GMAFB.  If RM showed the rate, then I'd know and I wouldn't have to ask. 

It's NOT haggling to make the initial inquiry since I don't have the information. It's only haggling if I attempt to negotiate a different price, which I don't do. I agree -- that's insulting. Asking the first time when it's not viewable is not insulting. 

I truly don't understand why this is so hard to understand.



 

Edited by Decatur Guy
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2 hours ago, Decatur Guy said:

MI'm about to pay someone more than a day's worth of pay, and this is already too much to deal with? GMAFB

Exactly.

Once we veer away from from looking at this through the lens of capitalism, market rates, sales pitches that don’t yield a 100% success rate … and start using words like “disrespect” and “insulting” …we need to think about what’s hugely insulting and disrespectful to clients as well.

Edited by DWnyc
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1 hour ago, Decatur Guy said:

And if someone finds that too much of burden reply to, well, we don't need to meet up anyway.

agree.  the assumption seems to be that an inquiry about rate is somehow binding for a subsequent immediate hire.  given rates are all over the place these days, an inquiry is essential to know if we’re even in the ballpark

my process to hire a new provider never happens in the moment and that’s intentional.  typically the tone & type of response from a provider tells me a lot more about their disposition and professionalism than I can see in an ad.  
if someone seems bothered, then my gut tells me they won’t be great experience in person and that’s a no.  there are plenty of charming professionals that will welcome a legitimate question about rates & other necessary details

 

Edited by SouthOfTheBorder
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59 minutes ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

the assumption seems to be that an inquiry about rate is somehow binding for a subsequent immediate hire

Occasionally ..yes. I feel this way.

I have inquired about a provider's rate, was quoted an outrageous price and I say thank you and move on.

Occasionally the young man will ask if I am "looking for now"...so I reply that the price is out of my range.

Again....50/50 some end the conversation there and others continue "how much didn't you WANT to pay ?" This is where I end the conversation with this response: "I would never ask someone to do their job for less than they feel they are worth "

End of conversation.

I find it truly tacky to negotiate a person's worth.

We're not buying a car ..this is a human being.

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12 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Occasionally ..yes. I feel this way.

I have inquired about a provider's rate, was quoted an outrageous price and I say thank you and move on.

Occasionally the young man will ask if I am "looking for now"...so I reply that the price is out of my range.

Again....50/50 some end the conversation there and others continue "how much didn't you WANT to pay ?" This is where I end the conversation with this response: "I would never ask someone to do their job for less than they feel they are worth "

End of conversation.

I find it truly tacky to negotiate a person's worth.

We're not buying a car ..this is a human being.

But if the provider himself is inviting you to negotiate by not ending the conversation, it can’t be binding, and for the same reason as you state, why deprive him of a shot at improving his economics? 

Walking away leaving his respect and worth (apparently) unchallenged but zero dollars in his pocket  may not be what the provider actually wants particularly if he’s the one initiating the negotiation.

And of course if the provider does prefer zero dollars for whatever reason, that’s totally his prerogative.

Edited by DWnyc
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7 hours ago, Decatur Guy said:

I have all the info I need except: rates.

I see no reason why a provider should be bothered by the rates question, especially if we’re talking exclusively about RentMen only, and no other ad websites. Lots of guys post on more than one site and often we don’t know which one you’re viewing unless you state as much. In this case, you do. Most of the time we get a random text from a new contact phone number that says:

”rates?”

In which case the provider has to go fishing to figure out what ad the client viewed, and that could be 2-6 profiles, sometimes more. Or just assume the client viewed RentMen and respond with their escort rates. That’s not hard.

Quick aside: “RM” can easily be misconstrued to mean RentMasseur instead of RentMen. Spell it out because a lot of guys are on both.

The rates question is frequent. I even have a note on my phone to copy/paste easily into a text response. If the rate is not in the ad, and their ad does NOT direct you elsewhere for the information, go for it. Perfectly reasonable to ask. I think the providers who get bothered are the ones who provide the information (or a method to view the info somewhere else) but their clients don’t read it.

As for the whole questioning rates issue or a client asking for a lower rate, I think it’s perfectly reasonable for the provider to politely end the conversation. No need to engage in negotiation or haggling, unless the provider invites it. I don’t get that, personally, but sure, if they want to work for less, indulge them.

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Jarrod- I think you are being a bit hasty to dis people who are telling you that your fees are too expensive. If, say, 19 out of 20 people tell you that you’re too high, it’s very useful market info. When I was in sales the worst possible outcome was the customer who went radio silent after I sent them a quote 

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13 minutes ago, dbar123 said:

Jarrod- I think you are being a bit hasty to dis people who are telling you that your fees are too expensive. If, say, 19 out of 20 people tell you that you’re too high, it’s very useful market info. When I was in sales the worst possible outcome was the customer who went radio silent after I sent them a quote 

One can aim for a price based on one’s costs and profit target.

But what one will actually receive is not the same thing, and if that’s lower, those cost inputs or the profit target need revisiting. 

And per @dbar123‘s framing, if 19 out of 20 say prices are too high we should also remember there is no collusion between these folks providing feedback - there simply isn’t the means or desire. 
 

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On 4/22/2023 at 2:03 AM, Simon Suraci said:

We providers can have the clearest, most straightforward, well communicated rates and policies on our ads. That’s ideal. Doesn’t matter. There will always be a percentage of prospective clients asking bird brain questions they can easily answer for themselves by checking the website or reviewing the ad content.

The question asking behavior doesn’t necessarily mean the client has bad intentions, or that they’re trying to play a game or negotiate for a more favorable rate. Maybe some are, but a lot of people are simply not that good at reading the information and need some hand holding. Even so, if they decide not to proceed for whatever reason, that’s their prerogative. If you get angry at them for asking (admittedly) an unnecessary question, you’re alienating them from ever hiring you in the future. 

I agree, it’s annoying wasting time answering questions to which clients already have the answers if they bothered to look. A considerable number of these question askers follow through and become clients, and of those, some become regulars/repeat. You have to sift through a lot of silt and muck to find a few gold nuggets. It’s tedious work, and not every pan yields a valuable reward. Customer service is never glamorous or enjoyable, but it’s a necessary part of running a good business.

 

I agree with this. However, let me BE CLEAR. I didn’t get angry at the question. And I didn’t get angry at the answer. In fact I wasn’t angry at all (nor am I saying you are saying I was angry). I was simply highlighting the combination: 

My RENTMASSEUR has the rates. So to ask me that to begin with, was redundant. The client in question isn’t stupid, he knows how to make a profile, upload a picture, and apparently is an expert on how much something should cost. Therefore finding my rate shouldn’t have been an issue. So there’s no reason to double my work, and then shoot me down in the process. 
 

I could have took the high road and not responded at all. I know some providers will block anyone who asks questions that are provided.

 

On 4/22/2023 at 7:37 AM, Monarchy79 said:

Always remember that you can’t impose your standards or beliefs of etiquette onto others. 

Carmax doesn’t haggle, 

Neiman Marcus doesn’t complain and never explains….

… and neither should you.

If you provide your pricing to a potential client and he responds with what he “can’t afford” and what he thinks you’re “worth”, simply don’t respond. 

 I wouldn’t even waste my time being offended. 


I agree (though idk about CarMaxx lol) And I’m not offended. I’m just making a statement. I know you are backing me, but people keep saying offended, angry, etc. There’s nothing in my message to him that conveys any of that. I was 💯 cordial and nice with him. In fact, it’s not even 1 person I’m discussing: I’m talking about ALL potentials who do that type of thing.

And I just say: if they’re going to ask how much, don’t get passive aggressive and put me down when I say the price. Otherwise, rephrase the question to better suit your needs, if you’re on a budget. Or, just read the ad. Avoid the humiliation on both parties. 
 

And I see this all time. For example, I was engaging with someone on the Goodwill app last night: because in my area RentMen/RentMasseur is mostly unknown. But it did help to run test the theory: if they don’t come with an offer, then aren’t trying to pay anything at all. Just trying to get your price and shoot you down, to be a jerk:

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On 4/22/2023 at 5:39 PM, Decatur Guy said:

Are you aware that potential clients can't see your rates in the United States on RentMen? They can't unless access via a VPN, apparently.  

I’m going to repeat the same thing, in case you didn’t catch in the original message. It was not RentMen:

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17 hours ago, Decatur Guy said:

Here's the bottom line: I hire off RM. Nothing else. If the provider has written a good ad, I have all the info I need except: rates. It doesn't have them. I'm not looking for a massage on RM. I'd go to a Masseur site for that. Therefore, I MUST ask the rate to know the rate. I CANNOT see it otherwise and I CANNOT read minds.

If someone can't reply to this:

Good afternoon. I just saw your profile on RM and liked it and your pictures, especially the one of you in your suit. May ask I your hourly in/out rates? Thank you.

And if someone finds that too much of burden reply to, well, we don't need to meet up anyway. I'm about to pay someone more than a day's worth of pay, and this is already too much to deal with? GMAFB.  If RM showed the rate, then I'd know and I wouldn't have to ask. 

It's NOT haggling to make the initial inquiry since I don't have the information. It's only haggling if I attempt to negotiate a different price, which I don't do. I agree -- that's insulting. Asking the first time when it's not viewable is not insulting. 

I truly don't understand why this is so hard to understand.



 


Again…

Again…

Let me say this one more time again: I’m not saying it’s a burden asking how much someone charges. It’s not haggling to ask, respond or decline, OR…OR, ask the person how much they’re looking to spend. That’s called QUESTIONS. There’s nothing wrong with a question. Period.

What I’m saying is: if the information is available, and someone still asks me how MUCH…then don’t come back and tell me it’s too much when I’m sitting here and displaying the info that’s necessary. 
 

You remember the phrase, if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it all? The extra commentary was unnecessary, unless you’re going to at least have the courtesy to put yourself on the line and say what you can pay. Otherwise, don’t waste yours or my time asking. 
 

And I like what  @Simon Suraci said but, maybe certain clients don’t need to be given second chances, if they come at me in THAT tone. In fact, the same person is likely to come around later, and lowball or time waste again. 

16 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

agree.  the assumption seems to be that an inquiry about rate is somehow binding for a subsequent immediate hire.  given rates are all over the place these days, an inquiry is essential to know if we’re even in the ballpark

my process to hire a new provider never happens in the moment and that’s intentional.  typically the tone & type of response from a provider tells me a lot more about their disposition and professionalism than I can see in an ad.  
if someone seems bothered, then my gut tells me they won’t be great experience in person and that’s a no.  there are plenty of charming professionals that will welcome a legitimate question about rates & other necessary details

 


And I welcome legitimate questions about rates and other necessary details. Like I said earlier, it’s not the question. It’s the approach. 

if a person is that eager and horny like he says, then it’s no reason to then descend into calling me TOO EXPENSIVE after saying I’m awesome twice. Like come on, who is he fooling?

Some of you guys are taking my post personally and then making it a personal issue. It’s not. Just read it from a subjective perspective versus seeing it like I’m saying asking any question is NOT etiquette. Asking a question isn’t bad etiquette.

714F668B-AB35-4D1C-8F10-612DB0574907.thumb.jpeg.f64e943d73ae6700e90685f15b95682d.jpeg

 

 

5 hours ago, dbar123 said:

Jarrod- I think you are being a bit hasty to dis people who are telling you that your fees are too expensive. If, say, 19 out of 20 people tell you that you’re too high, it’s very useful market info. When I was in sales the worst possible outcome was the customer who went radio silent after I sent them a quote 

I know you’re being “subjective”, but 19 out of 20 people, really? I’m only asking anywhere from $125 to $300 for a visit. How is that even close to being 19/20 being too expensive when that’s what everyone here is used to paying?
 

Now If I was charging $10,000, MAYBE 19 out of 20 would be accurate, which wouldn’t bother me because all I’d need is that 1 out of 20 to get me through every 2-3 months. And I’d be set. Not having to deal with being called “too expensive” when I am being every bit as much affected by inflation and recession as a freelancer. I’m barely paying my bills. His offer probably wouldn’t of even been enough to pay my insurance bill, plus he’s not even in the same city as me and he’s already trying to put me down?

That said, I been on tour on/off this whole year: I booked a session at my prices in EVERY CITY I stayed. Some did 250, others did 500. One did 1,000. Again, people don’t need to gaslight me into believing something different than I KNOW is reality.

Anyhow, that client in question has been blocked: and I let him know he needs to educate himself before contacting someone like that again. Otherwise, the next person might say: I’m too expensive for you? Well I think you’re too cheap for me! 😂 

Edited by Jarrod_Uncut
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  I have found that I ask some simple questions for local providers so it is not to fit into a 3 day visit.  Can you host if yes where in town are you ( general location)?  Any times you are or are not available and what do you charge.  I never make a counter offer to a provider.  You are in business, you set your rates.   Your business profitability is not my concern.  I actually hire an out of towner when he comes to town (Las Vegas)   He actually takes a room in a top hotel just for customers, he stays in a different top hotel.  I know he somehow gets free rooms but the details of all of this really are none of my concern.  And he charges a low rate as he is an older guy.

But the last thing I want to do is to state what you are worth to me.  And I find that when I have said you are too expensive, to offer a lower rate or ask me what I can spend is really a turnoff.  If you want 3 and we negotiate 2, I wonder if you will really be into offering your full attention or just dialing it in.  

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4 hours ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

I know some providers will block anyone who asks questions that are provided.

 

 

Oh my god I know a lot of these guys too and they’re all VERY successful in the business.  In fact, they’re among the most successful escorts that I know.  They often regale me with stories during our session of all the clients they block for not following the rules of initial contact. I don’t know much about business but this approach seems foolproof! 

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20 hours ago, DWnyc said:

But if the provider himself is inviting you to negotiate by not ending the conversation, it can’t be binding, and for the same reason as you state, why deprive him of a shot at improving his economics? 

Because I consider it tacky.

If he WANTED to work for $ 500 an hour instead of $ 1000 an hour then that's what he should be advertising.

It's not MY job to teach him economics, and it's my impression that if I offer less than asked, I am going to GET less than what I expected.

I negotiate contracts all day long. I have never asked anyone to do the same job for less money. We only discuss ways of reducing the time consumption on the project. The worker's rate isn't changing.

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1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

Because I consider it tacky.

If he WANTED to work for $ 500 an hour instead of $ 1000 an hour then that's what he should be advertising.

It's not MY job to teach him economics, and it's my impression that if I offer less than asked, I am going to GET less than what I expected.

I negotiate contracts all day long. I have never asked anyone to do the same job for less money. We only discuss ways of reducing the time consumption on the project. The worker's rate isn't changing.

I negotiate contracts also. I have found that most people will give you a number that is higher than what they would be willing to do the job for & will lower their rates to get that job rather than give it to someone else. Sounds like you are not a great negotiator. 

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52 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

Sounds like you are not a great negotiator. 

Sounds like you work with a lot of people who try and screw you. I don't.

Which is my point.

If an escort wants to try and screw me over, I see no point in negotiating to meet someone like that.

I'd rather give my business to a more ethical provider. I am more likely to get better service .

Edited by pubic_assistance
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7 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

I negotiate contracts also. I have found that most people will give you a number that is higher than what they would be willing to do the job for & will lower their rates to get that job rather than give it to someone else. Sounds like you are not a great negotiator. 

This is not the industry for that kind of mark up then negotiate down approach. Most everyone is charging 2-4 hundred dollars for an hour, most/average being 300 or less, depending on your area, almost never below $200. Massage is different, so I’m not considering that side for this discussion, just escort services.

Providers are competing for your business. If they’re way overpriced compared to market, there’s a reason for it whether it be delusion, they’re new and lack experience, they are in extremely high demand, they’re “famous” like a currently popular porn star, they intentionally want fewer but higher paying clients, or they don’t really do this as their full time job and it’s just gravy money. The vast majority of guys fall closer to the average ranges. The outliers have their reasons.

The value conversation is really more about what you’re getting for those hundreds than saving or spending 50 bucks above or below the average going rate in your area. If the service is exactly what you want and valuable to you and it’s with the right provider for you, win-win, I see no need to negotiate. If you can’t generally afford something in the hundreds of dollars for an escort service, you probably shouldn’t be hiring anyway. Better to save your money and rely on your hand until you do have the ability to hire exactly what you want at close to the going rates in your area.

It’s one thing to be a street vendor selling a piece of furniture. It’s quite another to be an escort.

I’ll consider it from the construction industry which is my background. The low bidder usually delivers lower quality, and/or demands change orders in the middle or at the end to give the client what they actually want in terms of quality or scope. With change orders, the total spend often ends up matching (or exceeding) the medium to higher bids quoted. If the low bid is a rigid number that the owner can’t exceed, for instance for financing reasons, the owner has to reduce scope somewhere to stay in their budget. In that case, the owner isn’t really getting what they want, but setting for low quality, or less product. You have a mismatch between services desired, and original price quoted. Someone is getting the job at some price, but the important question is: will the owner be happy with the results?

It’s so much better to pay the prevailing price and get better service, no change orders, and a smooth process. It’s not worth the headache and penny pinching mentality to hire below market.

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8 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Sounds like you work with a lot of people who try and screw you. I don't.

Which is my point.

If an escort wants to try and screw me over, I see no point in negotiating to meet someone like that.

I'd rather give my business to a more ethical provider. I am more likely to get better service .

To be clear…I am talking about negotiating  contracts with business providers which you referenced in your original post not escorts or massages. 

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We can respectfully disagree.

I negotiate contracts also. Mostly with service providers, ranging from huge multinationals where my small firm doesn’t move the needle, to sole practioners, who have put their life and soul into building their business and where acquiring and maintaining our account can be critical.

As a cofounder of my firm I understand the idea of valuing one’s worth and not being bullied by those writing the checks, but I also can’t leave money on the table beyond a point. I provide the smaller and sole practioners much more grace on this but I also have fiduciary obligations.

I have heard more times than I can recall from small or sole practioners in my day job, and providers in the world we are discussing here, something on the lines of “rather than walking away when my first offer didn’t work, I just wish you had spoken to me and I’m sure we could have come to an arrangement”. That of course implies I’m reasonable and fair and wouldn’t push for a negotiation that would be impossible or uncomfortable. But it does mean that if the initial terms don’t work for me, and I walk away for fear of being “disrespectful” or “tacky” I may be depriving these guys the chance to earn their living, and that seems to me to be a crime in itself. If it still doesn’t work for them or me even after respectful conversations where they are equal participants, they totally have the right to walk away just as I do. If they or I feel that even having such a conversation is futile, or a waste of time and resources, we shouldn’t have it. 

I’ll reiterate that I personally have never initiated a negotiation with a provider, and I always tip unless I feel there is a specific reason not to, and I’d rather hire less than push for arrangements where a provider feels resentment. Im just surprised that the discussion has moved to the point where even accepting a provider’s invitation to revisit price is somehow offensive. 

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2 hours ago, Simon Suraci said:

 

It’s so much better to pay the prevailing price and get better service, no change orders, and a smooth process. It’s not worth the headache and penny pinching mentality to hire below market.

I mostly agree but have difficulty with this last point.  Terms like “prevailing price” and “below market” imply these metrics exist and are known to the two parties in the negotiation. I don’t think that’s the case in the provider industry. I’m not comparing the premium guys whether delusional porn stars or actual quality experienced professionals with the tweaked guys hovering outside the Greyhound Terminal. Nor am I comparing those clients who show as much grace and respect as they can muster with those who negotiate rudely on everything as a knee jerk response to any opening offer or stated price. 

But as we head into a potential global recession, I expect to see more negotiating in every industry including this one, and if the preference is really less volume and maintaining quoted prices wherever they come from,  I’d say fine, but only if the end profit for providers was the same (or more). Im just not sure it always is.  

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1 hour ago, DWnyc said:

I’ll reiterate that I personally have never initiated a negotiation with a provider, and I always tip unless I feel there is a specific reason not to, and I’d rather hire less than push for arrangements where a provider feels resentment. Im just surprised that the discussion has moved to the point where even accepting a provider’s invitation to revisit price is somehow offensive. 

I am aware that people have different negotiating styles. Mine is always the gentleman's agreement, and no one ever feels slighted. I live in NYC where sharks surround victims in business deals, daily. I never want to be one of those people. They may have handshakes and smiles in the board room, but are always the ones spoken of in hatred behind their back.

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55 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

Terms like “prevailing price” and “below market” imply these metrics exist and are known to the two parties in the negotiation.

For providers, I disagree, the metrics do exist. Not on a stock exchange ticker, but it’s knowable with even a cursory amount of research.

Experienced clients have a good sense for what providers in their area are charging. Asking half a dozen to a dozen providers will give you a good sense of going rates. If you’ve hired occasionally in a certain city/region for a year or more, you will most certainly have this knowledge. Also, you can quickly gauge on the websites that list rates (not on RentMen, we beat that dead horse) and compare those numbers to the providers you contact.

Here on COM is a good place to ask around too. The baseline for rates is pretty easy to gauge, even if you’re starting from scratch with no experience hiring. I have to imagine with all the texts I get asking for rates that the knowledge goes somewhere in potential clients’ minds to compare with others they are texting. 

I discuss rates with provider friends and collaborators, so I have a good idea of what they are quoting their clients. For instance, in the Dallas/Ft Worth metro area, for one hour of full service, it runs $250 on the lower end to $300 average, and $400+++ on the high end for outliers, well known porn stars, the delusional, the fewer client strategy types, and such. You can find lower and higher numbers than these of course, but they are the minority. The baseline in my area is $300.

I can’t imagine this baseline is going to be wildly different in other cities and regions because many providers frequently tour across the country, but I know it varies from place to place and over time. I recognize many factors affect pricing and don’t mean to oversimplify, but a baseline ballpark is not that crazy or difficult to identify.

Someone who can afford $250 can afford $350. It’s just a matter of who is the right provider for you within the baseline range, and do you feel like an experience with them offers a good value for you in light of the price. That’s what baffles me sometimes when a client is obsessed with pricing. The more important issue is if you’re going to drop a few hundred dollars on an experience with anyone remotely close to the baseline, it should be with the right provider, not the cheapest, or the one you like who happens to be $25 or $50 less than the other one you like. It’s basically the same at that point. Tipping decisions alone make those a trivial pricing comparison.

Tying back to the OP question…the baseline is known (or easily knowable with the smallest bit of research) and that’s why it’s annoying when clients ask our rates and say it’s too expensive…because we know what our peers charge and it’s not that different from our own prices. It’s like the client is saying “escorts” are too expensive for me (which is their problem), and instead framing it as “you” are too expensive for me (implying it’s the provider’s problem).

To your point, the overall economy certainly plays a role. I will leave the impending recession discussion for the finances section. Not all agree that.

In recessions, luxury goods and services remain in demand because people with money are less affected. They still want their spa treatments, vacations, and they’re still horny AF. If anything, recessions are exactly the time one most wants to escape reality, if only temporarily, even when you can’t really afford it. More so for those that still can.

Regarding my analogy to the construction industry, those metrics do exist and are known to both parties. Construction project costs are well documented by project type, location, and year started/completed. These are the baseline for pricing proposed projects and submitting bids. Prices of course vary from the baseline when considering all manner of factors, but the baseline for a comparable project is known.

One might consider the concept is like comparable properties or “comps” in the real estate industry, at least for establishing a baseline. If only “offers over asking” were a thing in this industry 😂 That, and financing 🤣 

 

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