Sensitive topic - race and rates

[+ José Soplanucas]

3 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

I have never made a formal study, but if you look at ethnic preferences in profiles on hookup sites, it seems fairly common for guys to list just about every ethnicity EXCEPT Asian.  

What about Philipinos, Eskimos, Native American Indian ethnicities, Polynesians, (keep filling in your forgotten ethnicities)

[Rudynate]

I don't list preferences - I say "no preference."  I try to keep my system of classification as primitive as possible - a guy is either white or black or brown.

[Rudynate]

12 minutes ago, José Soplanucas said:

When we point to structural racism as a challenge, there is always some oblivious/racist idiot saying:

What? But I am color blinded!

I don't think it's stupid- they just haven't given it much thought.

[+ José Soplanucas]

4 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

I don't think it's stupid- they just haven't given it much thought.

I do not think that is possible after the BLM and woke movements rise. 

[DWnyc]

12 minutes ago, José Soplanucas said:

When we point to structural racism as a challenge, there is always some oblivious/racist idiot saying:

What? But I am color blinded!

To be fair, they may genuinely feel this, and it doesn’t necessarily make them racist. At worst I’d say they could be naive or tone deaf in not reading the room or understanding how this may come across.  And perhaps forgetting the entitlement / privilege that allows them to express this.

My bigger issue is with those who deny the existence of problems they haven’t experienced, meaning they lack empathy or willingness to consider testimony on things that may be unfamiliar or uncomfortable. Like someone middle class wondering out loud why inflation is a problem for so many millions on products such as milk and eggs. Or any man opining on what it’s like to be a woman (in the workplace … walking alone at night … etc).

[+ José Soplanucas]

Just now, DWnyc said:

To be fair, they may genuinely feel this, and it doesn’t necessarily make them racist.

Agreed, they can be stupid and not racist!

[+ DrownedBoy]

1 hour ago, DWnyc said:

We also have very positive national traits of openness and allowing self criticism, so we talk about all this a lot more. 

Agree very strongly. Talking about reality isn't condoning reality. But reality isn't nice, and it's wrong to just ignore reality when it makes us uncomfortable. 

Some memories came up while reading these posts. I grew up in a white, ethnic, working class Chicago neighborhood. By today's standards, you'd call the people I grew up with extremely racist.

I mentioned having black providers who wanted more after we agreed to a price. I remember the exact words of one: at the last minute he said, "hey, can you make it [agreed rate plus 50]?" I immediately canceled. 

Now, I remember being warned against those exact words when I was younger, and I've been hearing versions of it my whole life. In my neighborhood, we had a phrase for that line, and that phrase included the n-word.

Now, I've lived (and hired) long enough to know such behavior comes from people of all races. But if I hadn't escaped my neighborhood (and few did), I probably would believe those stereotypes. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by DrownedBoy

[+ jessmapex]

Race is definitely a factor on both sides - provider and client. I remember reading a newspaper article about pimps in NYC that said Caucasian women brought in much more $$ than other races. Hence women from eastern Europe and Russia are preferred trafficking victims. 

Race is also a big factor in non-commercial hook ups e.g via Grindr.

It has been discussed on this forum before. I am sure Rentmen has data about this based on the most commonly used Advance search parameters on the site. I bet a data driven conclusion will prove many points discussed here. 

I have been on both sides of this (as a race-based rejector and rejectee) , so I don't blame anyone but the society we live in and our upbringing that bias our preferences. But preferences do evolve as one ages and matures. 

I will however mention that it was hurtful to be a rejectee on Grindr (and Craigslist before that), but it is supremely hurtful when a provider rejects for race. A good lesson confirming money can't buy everything. 

 

[DWnyc]

6 hours ago, jt30331 said:

All I'm saying is that they're verbalizing the fact that they're stereotyping blacks, and trying to justify it with bullshit.  As you say, these are your "friends", so obviously you're totally free to do what you want.  However, I don't entertain or co-sign conversations that clearly are bigoted toward entire race (or races) of people.  I don't want people to confuse a silence and/or a listening ear with agreement.  

Well you don’t know what I may or may not have said in the entire conversations.

And Im reminded every Thanksgiving and college reunion that if I broke off ties with everyone I disagreed with I wouldn’t have anyone in my life. 

Apart from all you close friends on this forum 😊

[jt30331]

2 hours ago, DWnyc said:

Well you don’t know what I may or may not have said in the entire conversations.

And Im reminded every Thanksgiving and college reunion that if I broke off ties with everyone I disagreed with I wouldn’t have anyone in my life. 

Apart from all you close friends on this forum 😊

You’re right. I don’t know what you did or did not say to your racist friends/clients. That said, I wouldn’t minimize racist attitudes and/or behaviors to that of a simple disagreement. That said, you have your own way of addressing, if at all, racist behavior on the part of those with whom you do business, personal or otherwise. 
 

 

[DWnyc]

2 hours ago, jt30331 said:

You’re right. I don’t know what you did or did not say to your racist friends/clients. That said, I wouldn’t minimize racist attitudes and/or behaviors to that of a simple disagreement. That said, you have your own way of addressing, if at all, racist behavior on the part of those with whom you do business, personal or otherwise. 
 

 

Who’s minimizing here?

But I don’t think is possible or healthy to reduce everything to “is this person x-ist” (racist, ageist, sizeist if such a word exists and so on) and then make existential judgements on them. The reality is often far more nuanced, and I doubt there is a single one of us who escapes having prejudice (ie pre judging) of some sort or views that others might find offensive. These things vary across geography, generation, time etc as well. And also differ in importance to some, so I might be most offended by age discrimination, you by race and so forth. 

Coming back to the OP, our collective views influence what the market can support, and where such prejudice exists it does affect pricing. We’ve discussed that elsewhere in the forum when providers have wondered why their rates can’t be higher or why they can’t have stricter terms with clients. So yes there are obviously negative consequences to all this. Sounds like you and I differ on how we change the world on these matters, but that’s ok ... I agree the world should change, and that’s more than you’ll get from some others. 

[Storm4U]

I am Black/mixed. Im only speaking for myself, but I have never charged below market  rates, and I have not, nor would I negotiate my rates. My philosophy is always if someone want to pay a lower rate, they should go for the guy with the lower rate. 🤷🏽‍♂️

[jt30331]

8 hours ago, DWnyc said:

Who’s minimizing here?

But I don’t think is possible or healthy to reduce everything to “is this person x-ist” (racist, ageist, sizeist if such a word exists and so on) and then make existential judgements on them. The reality is often far more nuanced, and I doubt there is a single one of us who escapes having prejudice (ie pre judging) of some sort or views that others might find offensive. These things vary across geography, generation, time etc as well. And also differ in importance to some, so I might be most offended by age discrimination, you by race and so forth. 

Coming back to the OP, our collective views influence what the market can support, and where such prejudice exists it does affect pricing. We’ve discussed that elsewhere in the forum when providers have wondered why their rates can’t be higher or why they can’t have stricter terms with clients. So yes there are obviously negative consequences to all this. Sounds like you and I differ on how we change the world on these matters, but that’s ok ... I agree the world should change, and that’s more than you’ll get from some others. 

You’re right. We disagree on views/approach. I’ll leave it there. 

[DWnyc]

5 hours ago, jt30331 said:

You’re right. We disagree on views/approach. I’ll leave it there. 

And I’ll let you have the last word even with your consistent framing of this a certain way.

Take a look at some of the reactions above and how such conversations go generally, with eye rolls, “I don’t experience it so it can’t happen”, “i‘m not that way so it can’t be so”, “that’s the way it is, deal with it” etc ., and halting some discussions as “no longer on topic” (aka “uncomfortable”) all while other discussions in parallel veer off on every tangent imaginable. Some of this is the silence of the good people, but some of it more sinister. 

I assume you care about this issue a lot based on your comments, but focusing on our disagreements doesn’t actually serve the cause given all that’s around us if we are (as I assume) on the same side on the main issues. 

[DWnyc]

21 hours ago, jessmapex said:

 

I have been on both sides of this (as a race-based rejector and rejectee) , so I don't blame anyone but the society we live in and our upbringing that bias our preferences. But preferences do evolve as one ages and matures. 

I will however mention that it was hurtful to be a rejectee on Grindr (and Craigslist before that), but it is supremely hurtful when a provider rejects for race. A good lesson confirming money can't buy everything. 

 

Serious question. If you have rejected on race, why is it hurtful to face the same treatment? I understand being rejected is never fun, but aren’t you being played by your own rules?  

[TonyDown]

I book 2 or 3 massages a month.

 

I made a list with ethnicity of each provider (black, asian, Pashtun, Persian, Morrocan, latino, white, etc) then checked the current rate for all of these providers I've booked over the last several years.

The highest 3 rates are for 2 asian guys and one black guy.   All three are younger, masculine guys with very nice physiques, nice smile and so on.    That alone will probably trigger some of you, but it is what it is.  We like what we like.

So there could be other factors besides race that determine different tiers of pricing. 

Looking at the lowest rates from my list, most tend to be older providers.  That said, many of us know some awesome choices that are older 

I remember moving to Cali years ago and  seeing all these cute Asian guys.  An Asian friend pulled me aside and explained how some of these Asian guys I was noticing, prefer to date other Asian guys.  Yeah, I wished it wasn't true but that's life.  

Back to the OP, I do not doubt that providers have to deal with racism.  When I read in this thread about racism and about clients that want to haggle on price, I am reminded how important to treat providers with the utmost respect.

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by TonyDown

[DWnyc]

1 hour ago, TonyDown said:

So there could be other factors besides race that determine different tiers of pricing. 

(Btw I’m super impressed you found a Pashtun) 

It’s a combo of factors;, race isnt the only one but it could be significant, all else being equal. 

I recall an obnoxious post on Grindr on the lines of “if you’re above 40 or ethnic you better be hot or have a big dick”.

[DWnyc]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:58 PM, José Soplanucas said:

I do not think that is possible after the BLM and woke movements rise. 

You’re giving too much credit to some people.

And those movements for all the good they may have done have also triggered counter movements on a mass scale too. “All lives matter” for instance. 

[Marc in Calif]

55 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

(Btw I’m super impressed you found a Pashtun) 

Not at all difficult to find in California -- especially in the SF Bay Area.

The city of Fremont, for example, has one of the largest Afghan populations outside Afghanistan. And Pashtuns are the largest ethnic group in that nation.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Marc in Calif

[+ José Soplanucas]

1 hour ago, DWnyc said:

You’re giving too much credit to some people.

And those movements for all the good they may have done have also triggered counter movements on a mass scale too. “All lives matter” for instance. 

I humbly think those moments are a racist reaction to the BLM/woke rising. 

Beyond that, and whether or not you agree with the idea that racism is structural, my point is simple. If the conversation is about structural racism, and your response is, "Such a thing does not exist; the proof is that I am color blind," you are indeed stupid. You do not understand a socio/cultural/political structure if you think you contradict it with your experience.

 

[pubic_assistance]

Personally, I think a muscular physique and a big fat dick drives the price more than ethnicity does. At least that's MY observation of the scale in pricing.

Just for the record ...although I rarely hire escorts. The fellow who I paid the most ever for a hot very hot fuck was a black provider not white. He was very fit / very kinky and a very nice young man. All qualities that meant he was worthy of his high price. But then I'm a New Yorker and accustomed to being around people of all colors and cultures. So I think that makes you a bit more "blind" to skin color. 

 

 

[Danny-Darko]

On 4/5/2023 at 9:02 PM, DrownedBoy said:

I have a question that I really need to ask providers.

Is their an informal "tier" of different rates in the U.S. due to race? And how open are people in discussing that?

I ask because I've read comments here about Caucasians making more than minorities. Likewise, I had an Asian provider flat out say that as an Asian, he makes much less than other providers.

I'm not calling anyone racist for their preferences when hiring. I'm just curious, as the vast majority of my partners (hires or dating) aren't Caucasian.

I wouldn't say that. I've seen how Hispanics and other Latins like Brazilians have flooded the market in most US, Canada and Europe and they charge the same high prices as the others! They are in demand so I can't agree with the generalization of "minorities". In California I saw in my 15+ years of living there Asians very much in demand and charging same as everybody else. In Florida, Latins from all over and Jamaicans and Haitians seem to be in demand and their prices aren't cheap either!    

[Danny-Darko]

On 4/6/2023 at 12:06 PM, José Soplanucas said:

People of Color have to work harder and for less money than their White brothers and sisters in most professions, not only in escorting. 

The stereotype of the minorities/coloreds/blacks/women/etc... working harder for less money is an erroneous one spread from different eras of past history and from certain select high level professions where it can and probably has happened. In my lifetime, never have I worked in any job anywhere where anybody of any race or color or sex was offered a different salary than I or whites! Similar jobs got paid exactly the same to all who did it in the same capacity. On the contrary, I've seen and has also happened to me in the past several decades where "they" got promoted or hired over "us" being less qualified, experiences, educated and given jobs and tasked way above their qualifications. Minority new-hires and just out of school while not considering those already in the company and field! We all know why and no reason to get into political discussions nor being about how to right the wrongs of history none of us had anything to do with. Outside of escorting which I have never seen myself and I'm not saying it hasn't happed (I've lived in many different places and been hiring since I tuned 19yo), it is illegal to pay somebody a lower salary for same job because of race. Companies and businesses would be sued all the time for type these behaviors. Sorry but I can't agree with you on this. If I'd seen it anywhere I certainly would say so and been in agreement with those of you that make these claims. Stereotypes and reputations die hard and don't change easily because the myths are so perpetuated. And of course, are those that use them to their advantage and/or to promote and agenda. Sensitive topic I know but every coin has its flip side. 

[Danny-Darko]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:41 PM, José Soplanucas said:

What about Philipinos, Eskimos, Native American Indian ethnicities, Polynesians, (keep filling in your forgotten ethnicities)

Polynesians refer themselves as Pacific Islanders in profiles and I have seen few, though several Hawaiians. I've found Filipinos are considering themselves Asian and almost all Native Americans are really not! Some foreigners think the term refers to those "born and raised in America" so add it to their profiles, LOL. Some have added it to their profile because they know of some Native American ancestry in their blood especially in our southern states. I've seen a few Latin American state Native American (and rightly so) because of their indigenous roots from their country which is in The Americas. I honestly wish there would be more Native American male escorts!! I have been lucky enough to have been with several, 3 full-blooded from the USA (and not for pay either) and a few from Canada (for pay) and they have ROCKED MY WORLD each and every one!! The BEST sex I've ever had! 

[Danny-Darko]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:59 PM, José Soplanucas said:

Agreed, they can be stupid and not racist!

Or simply not have that ugly chip on their shoulders and not paying attention to other problems! Life is hard for everybody, and yes some more that others and this has nothing to do with race. People in general go about their lives. Should we think about others more? Yes of course we all should! And not just white or born Americans thinking about minorities, but EVERYBODY should! People these days are so concerned about how those considered "non-minorities" (yes some of us are and don't flaunt it) behave. Yet I've yet to see people of ANY minority concerned about the plight and welfare of any other minority group other than their own and those they identify with for identity or solidarity purposes. So why are all other so bad? How often have we seen Blacks fight for the rights of Asians or Hispanics or immigrants and other way around any other combination you like? I remember in California, Mexican immigrants complaining to me about other Hispanic immigrants saying they should "go home" because they were taking their job opportunities away. I had a Filipina coworker in Florida trash the Mexicans and Hispanics and thought herself above the lowly Latinos even though she herself was a country girl from the provinces and an immigrant herself! People in general look after their own, family, then community and maybe some look beyond. For the most part everybody does the same. Think about it before vilifying those that don't sympathize with you!