Closeted guys

[fancyboot]

How do openly gay/bi men feel about men who are not out?  Is it like wearing a scarlet letter?  

[Guest]

Who cares; the important question is how you feel about it. Live that.

[Becket]

Welcome, fancyboot. I see you're a newbie. Don't let the snark get to you. Many of us are cranky sometimes. 

I would suggest that your question is a bit too broad. Kinda like asking if redheads like salmon. "Openly gay/bi men" is a whole lotta folks.

Wait, you're not AI, are you? Those sneaky programs.......

Anyway, enjoy the show.

[TonyDown]

OK, I'll go.

The most flamboyant homophobe on campus lived in my house.  I would have enjoyed those college years more if he had kept his homophobic agenda to himself. 

I was not out. 

I had nice friends in the house and grew close to a particular housemate.  There were some strong feelings and we shared some playfulness and groping in the dark.  But the stigma of homophobia impacted our relationship.

Since nothing was ever seriously spoken about the affection we felt, the relationship wasn't easy for me to understand.  

At the end I kept my distance and he flippantly asked if we were getting a divorce. 

After college he wanted to try again.  By then he had dated several women.  At that point I didn't want to play.

Both of these guys ultimately married women. 

The flamboyant homophobe convinced some woman to marry him against her better judgment.  He is gay as a picnic basket, as some are apt to say.  The homophobe and wife have no children.  He finally came out. They are basically roommates now.

My close friend married twice and has children.  I would guess he is bisexual but closer to the "straight" end of the spectrum.  The closet prevents having honest conversations to clarify those things, right?  

Both of these fellows have been in touch with me in recent years when our house was planning a reunion. 

I decided not to go for various reasons.

I will always think of the flamboyant homophobe as somewhat of a jerk.  He now claims he was always an ally before springing out from his closet.  So he is still in denial about that piece.

I admit I could have been a much better friend than I was to this special guy I knew during college. Being closeted was no fun.  I wish I had been better equipped to deal with that situation and will always be sorry for hurting him.  

 

 

 

[+ The Big Guy]

I would not describe myself as “out” but if asked will gladly describe myself as gay.   I don’t think it is an issue unless entering a relationship with a closeted man which makes things very difficult.  So unless it impacts a relationship I am in, I don’t see a reason to care if someone is “out” or not.  

[+ DynamicUno]

I cannot judge people for being closeted, in most cases. In a perfect world everyone could be out without judgement, estrangement, or risk of harm, but that is not the case in many places.

Being in the closet forces people to be dishonest to the people around them and frequently themselves.  Unfortunately, even today, they feel it is necessary to keep relations with friends and family, or even their safety in certain communities.  The recent case of the mayor in Alabama who took his own life after being outed is just one example of the cruel toll this takes on people who feel they cannot be open with who they are.

The people I do hold in contempt are those who have power who engage in anti-LGBT rhetoric while being in the closet themselves.  It's so common to be almost cliche that politicians or pastors who are stridently anti-gay are likely to have something to hide. These people do very real harm, leading to isolation, fear, and risk of violence for the people they target.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by DynamicUno

[+ Charlie]

Sometimes younger Americans forget how dangerous it often was in the past to be "out" in America, and how dangerous it still is in many parts of the world. Gay men anywhere have many reasons other than legal or physical danger to want to stay "in the closet." Being openly gay may affect their livelihood, their acceptance in a religion that is important to them, their personal relationships with family or other important persons in their lives. One's sexual orientation or sexual behavior is something that one can manage to hide more easily than one's race, physical disabilities, lack of education or financial means, and other issues that affect one's social interactions.

That being said, staying in the closet can have psychological repercussions, given how important one's sexuality is to a healthy, integrated personality. In my late teens, I had what was loosely called a "nervous breakdown," and my parents sent me to see a counseling psychologist. He gave me the best advice--and surprising advice in those days--which was to always tell the truth to myself about who I was, and to be honest with my loved ones, even if it was hard to do. In other situations, be as honest as you could be pragmatically (this was in the early 1960s, when being homosexually active  was illegal and could get one expelled from school, fired from a job, banned from the military, and even sent to prison). I went home from his office, and told my parents I was "homosexual" (they had no idea what "gay" meant), and to my relief they did not seem openly upset (my mother asked, "How do you know?" which caused me to start laughing and relax). I was already out to a couple of my closest friends, and from then on I was ready to admit my orientation to anyone else who asked. Within a couple more years I had met new friends who were very active in the burgeoning gay rights movement and had joined them in their activities; when a photo appeared in a major newspaper of me taking part in a protest, I gave up any pretense of not being gay.

I do not condemn anyone who stays in the closet for a good reason, though I still would encourage them to be as honest with themselves and as open with others as is possible for them. I agree that those who are stridently homophobic are usually fighting against fear of being perceived as gay by others.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Charlie

[SouthOfTheBorder]

19 hours ago, fancyboot said:

How do openly gay/bi men feel about men who are not out?

let’s be honest - for 99.9% it depends on if they want to fuck you

the gays are not that complicated 

[caramelsub]

I’m not entirely convinced that someone being homophobic usually means they are closeted gay. I think some people are just haters. When I went through school in the early 2000s, people definitely knew what the word gay meant. And it was always used as an insult. Teens would say things like, that’s so gay, or you’re so gay. I remember effeminate kids being bullied as well. I don’t know how things are now in the middle and high schools, or if any progress has been made in the use of the word gay as a slur.

[jeezifonly]

OP question is vague in “feel about”

In a committed relationship situation, asymmetry in openness can pose problems in the long term. Having to pretend when in the company of the not-out half’s friends and family gets exhausting. If his immediate circle also includes homophobes, weigh that carefully. 

In context of FWB, one-night hookup, Grindr or other exersex, who’s to know? Chemistry takes the lead, and social/lifestyle conflicts above the neck are only a problem if they turn you off more than he turns you on. 

[+ DynamicUno]

One risk with meeting closeted guys, especially in my area, is finding out they're married after the fact. I personally do not like being with someone cheating on their partner. I don't mind if they're in open relationships, however. That used be primarily just the closeted ones you had to worry about, since there's a lot of guys from sexually conservative cultures in my area who married for family obligations.  These days it's almost as many guys in same sex marriages stepping out.  Plus ça change!  

Edited December 28, 2023 by DynamicUno

[Thelatin]

I’m out to those close to me.  Otherwise I’m so far in the closet that I’m in Narnia. 

[pubic_assistance]

2 hours ago, caramelsub said:

Teens would say things like, that’s so gay, or you’re so gay.

My nephews say that all the time in front of me, and I am openly bisexual.

It's just something the kids say now. They don't mean it in the way it might sound.

Putting my two cents in...I am not "gay" in the traditional lifestyle sense...but I did identify as "gay" for a few years before my wife and I decided to marry. ( I know...complicated). But none-the-less I've been around the block enough to know what it's like to be in or out of a closet and I would say that @Charlie hit the nail on the head. You don't KNOW what someone's life is composed of enough to ever be critical of how "out" that person should be ( or could be).  I personally am quite critical of the gay-mafia types who insist that every dick-sucker expose himself to the public and announce his "pride". That just isn't realistic in every corner of the globe and in every family. People need to make their own decisions about what's right for THEM.  No one else should tell you how to live your life.

I think bi-sexuals are perceived a bit differently by the general public, than homosexuals, and the fact that I am married with kids often give me a "cover" if you will....but there are many layers of choices. My wife ( who is also bisexual) make on a daily basis as to how much someone needs to know about our sex life. The general consensus between us is that we don't HIDE in a closet, but it's really not any of most people's business. If someone really asks, we tell. Otherwise I prefer you know me by my sense of style, sense of humor or sense of pride about other lifestyle choices I've made. I don't choose to be judged by where I stick my dick. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by pubic_assistance
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[rvwnsd]

As we used to say in the men's coming out group I co-facilitated, the only person you need to come out to is yourself. Everyone else is optional.

We also used to say that you need to protect and provide for yourself. If being out would jeopardize your safety, living situation, or livelihood, then don't come out until you are in a better situation.

That said, when being closeted starts gnawing at a person and they feel like they are "living a lie" or "not being genuine," it's time to think about what one is getting from being closeted vs the hesitation to be out. 

On 12/27/2023 at 3:37 PM, fancyboot said:

How do openly gay/bi men feel about men who are not out?  Is it like wearing a scarlet letter?  

To answer your question, everyone has a different feeling about men who are not out. Additionally, there are as many definitions of "being out" as there are people. I consider myself to be an out gay man. I have no qualms discussing dating men vs women, I have no qualms about joining LGBT groups at work, and I don't hide who I am. However, I don't declare to everyone I meet that I am gay. I did that 25 years ago and there's no reason to keep doing it. If someone doesn't understand what it means when I discuss a boyfriend, or joining an LGBT employee resource group, or any other myriad things gay men do, then that's on them. I'm a terrible artist and can't draw them a picture.

[Guest]

To be honest, I don’t even like the term “closeted”; it implies dishonesty or at least lack of authenticity. Nondisclosure does not mean inauthentic. For me the decision whether and to whom to disclose ultimately is a moral choice (which for me simply means to do no harm to self or others), and it is my choice alone.

[+ newatthis]

16 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

If someone really asks, we tell

One has to wonder why someone would ask such a question (in general; obviously there are specific circumstances or conversations where it might be appropriate).  

[soloyo215]

On 12/27/2023 at 5:37 PM, fancyboot said:

How do openly gay/bi men feel about men who are not out?  Is it like wearing a scarlet letter?  

My views on that has changed as I have grown older and wiser. Originally, I resented them, and I didn't like them at all. I used to view them as wanting the joys of sex between men, but hiding from the responsibilities that come with being gay. I saw them as opportunists. In the community where I grew up, the closet cases I knew were the type that attacked gay men as way of shifting the focus out of themselves. That was part of what made me resentful.

That type of closeted guy still exists today, and I still reject and resent them, but I've also learned about the ones I never heard of before. Many men find themselves in situations where they cannot be out, and they do not attack gay men in a lame attempt at keeping their cover. Many value having a family, children, their faith and other things that go against their sexuality, more than being open about who they are. It's a decision that they have made, but they don't judge others who don't make the same decision.

So today I know that there are different reasons why some men hide their true sexual orientation, and I have to put my money where my mouth is. That is, I claim that I am open minded and non-judgemental, so I dont' judge them or their situation, I only set boundaries with the ones who seem to need to attack gay men or trans people to reinforce their closeted status.

[Guest]

Hypocrisy is altogether different; there’s definitely a difference between being closeted and being an asshole.

[jmichaeliii]

I have a provider that I see at least monthly and we are on friendly terms.  I am pretty new (about 8 months) to hiring for erotic massages, but I love massage and after putting it off for a long time, took the plunge and it has been better than I ever expected.  Our sessions get better every time we meet. 

We will talk about family, activities, etc.  He does not know my actual family situation because I didn't share it as in the beginning this was a business transaction to me.  Now that we are friendly with each other, I am feeling like I should tell him what is real.  I haven't because I am afraid of wrecking things.  Things are still on a business level..I pay and tip him the same as our very first meeting, but I find him to be kind and sincere and consider him a friend and he acts the same toward me.  I'm torn on what I should do here.

[+ purplekow]

13 minutes ago, jmichaeliii said:

I have a provider that I see at least monthly and we are on friendly terms.  I am pretty new (about 8 months) to hiring for erotic massages, but I love massage and after putting it off for a long time, took the plunge and it has been better than I ever expected.  Our sessions get better every time we meet. 

We will talk about family, activities, etc.  He does not know my actual family situation because I didn't share it as in the beginning this was a business transaction to me.  Now that we are friendly with each other, I am feeling like I should tell him what is real.  I haven't because I am afraid of wrecking things.  Things are still on a business level..I pay and tip him the same as our very first meeting, but I find him to be kind and sincere and consider him a friend and he acts the same toward me.  I'm torn on what I should do here.

Chances are that the provider does not care what your life away from him entails as far as your orientation, or at the least, he does not care about knowing as much as you care about telling.  So when you are ready, tell him what you want him to know.  He has heard it all and it likely does not rub him the wrong the way.  

As far as being out, I was happy in a monogamous heterosexual relationship and as a result, I did not start seeing men until I was almost 50,  It seems that at that age no one really cares with whom you have sex and it may be that some do not believe that sex happens for people over 50. Being widowed, did occasionally raise the question as to whether I would date again or marry again.  I did ty dating again and did not care for it with either sex.   In any case, my situation now is Don't Ask, Don't Tell.  They don't ask and I feel no responsibility to discuss my sex likes with them.  I also do not ask them about their sex life.  To me, it is rude to ask  and it is really none of my business if my friends or relatives are having sex, how often, with whom, in what position.  On the rare occasion that sex comes up in conversation with my friends, it is usually relating funny experiences and long past stories, which have been told numerous times in the past. 

In my office, I do have a gay pride flag that was given out by the hospital years ago and which sits wordlessly on top of a cabinet. If people notice, they do not ask.   A few months ago, while taking photos for a graduation of medical residents, there was a different group taking photos for Gay Pride month and they asked for Gay and Gay Allied persons to join their photo.  I did so.  Again without comment from me or to me.  

So really, at this point, my sex life to others is more. Don't Care and Please Keep it to Yourself.  

[+ FrankR]

5 hours ago, jmichaeliii said:

I have a provider that I see at least monthly and we are on friendly terms.  I am pretty new (about 8 months) to hiring for erotic massages, but I love massage and after putting it off for a long time, took the plunge and it has been better than I ever expected.  Our sessions get better every time we meet. 

We will talk about family, activities, etc.  He does not know my actual family situation because I didn't share it as in the beginning this was a business transaction to me.  Now that we are friendly with each other, I am feeling like I should tell him what is real.  I haven't because I am afraid of wrecking things.  Things are still on a business level..I pay and tip him the same as our very first meeting, but I find him to be kind and sincere and consider him a friend and he acts the same toward me.  I'm torn on what I should do here.

He sounds like a nice guy and treats you like a valued client. I am a business professional and as I get to know my clients better, we often exchange details at a personal level. But I never confuse our friendly interaction as “friendship” - we are friendly, but it is a professional relationship where they pay me for my services.  I would recommend that you be super sure that it is friendship and not just a friendly situation.  Dont get carried away and emotionally involved - it is easy to make the wrong determination and that can end up being hurtful to both of you.  Good luck!

Edited December 29, 2023 by FrankR

[jmichaeliii]

I appreciate the wisdom you both shared.  FrankR I agree with your statement about friendly versus friends, I just did not state it properly, but the way you said it is exactly how things are.  We are very friendly with each other, but that and our professional relationship is as far as things have gone, and I am fine with that and prefer it stay that way.  I plan to continue seeing him for sessions and maybe the right time will present itself to tell him more.  Have a great day and thanks again for the perspectives.

[+ sniper]

I think back in the day there was a certain class of closeted gay/bi guy who took great advantage of the fact that rampant homophobia kept them in a steady supply of guys they could get their rocks off with and not worry about being exposed. And once relatively greater societal acceptance took away that Mutual Assured Destruction they relied on, they ramped up the resentment. Because they now didn't have as many people to use. Those were the guys I had a problem with.

[+ Charlie]

It is always more comfortable to simply be out than to be outed involuntarily, or to have to find an appropriate opportunity to explain one's sexual orientation to someone. One of the advantages of legal same sex marriage is that I don't have to declare to anyone, "Hey! I'm gay!" In casual conversation with someone, I am likely to mention my spouse, and when I use the pronoun "he" to refer to him, the job is done.

[pubic_assistance]

5 hours ago, newatthis said:

One has to wonder why someone would ask such a question (in general; obviously there are specific circumstances or conversations where it might be appropriate).  

I live in New York. After a few cocktails people will often bring up sex in the conversation.

Nobody is directly asking me if I'm gay.

But conversations have revolved around gay/bi issues and I don't pretend I'm not without experience on the matter. Same goes for my wife.

(Obviously we don't tell people at PTA meetings that we were swingers, back in the day.) 😉

Edited December 29, 2023 by pubic_assistance
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