Anybody else get confused by those who use plural, not gender-neutral?

[Guest]

Sorry, but I couldn't add "pronouns" and have it fit in the title. So I read this article in People magazine in which Ezra Miller complains about people being unjustly targeted by a harassment order. 

Ezra Miller Says They Were 'Unjustly and Directly Targeted' as Harassment Order Expires

PEOPLE.COM

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Ezra Miller shared a rare public statement saying that they were "unjustly and directly targeted" after a harassment order on them from a Massachusetts...

I was trying to figure out to which people Miller and the magazine were referring, until I realized that "they" was simply just Ezra Miller. I can understand someone who's non-binary wanting to be referred to with gender-neutral pronouns such as "ze" or "xe," but for me using pleural pronouns for one person creates unnecessary confusion. Anyone else here feel using pleural pronouns when talking about one person is unnecessarily confusing?

 

[+ DynamicUno]

Not confused at all.  They/them/their have been used in a singular gender indefinite sense since Shakespeare. Honestly I prefer that over newly constructed pronouns.

[SirBillybob]

1 hour ago, Unicorn said:

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Anyone else here feel using pleural pronouns when talking about one person is unnecessarily confusing?

 

Only if it/they is/are a pleural effusion of confusion. 

[+ nycman]

I feel a song coming on…..

 

[+ José Soplanucas]

1 hour ago, Unicorn said:

Sorry, but I couldn't add "pronouns" and have it fit in the title. So I read this article in People magazine in which Ezra Miller complains about people being unjustly targeted by a harassment order. 

Ezra Miller Says They Were 'Unjustly and Directly Targeted' as Harassment Order Expires

PEOPLE.COM

---

Ezra Miller shared a rare public statement saying that they were "unjustly and directly targeted" after a harassment order on them from a Massachusetts...

I was trying to figure out to which people Miller and the magazine were referring, until I realized that "they" was simply just Ezra Miller. I can understand someone who's non-binary wanting to be referred to with gender-neutral pronouns such as "ze" or "xe," but for me using pleural pronouns for one person creates unnecessary confusion. Anyone else here feel using pleural pronouns when talking about one person is unnecessarily confusing?

 

I am confused by your confusion. It is clear when you read the article.

 

[SouthOfTheBorder]

people who desire specific pronoun usage will almost always let you know in a first encounter - after that, just respect their wishes & proceed accordingly 

its no more complicated than that - you do not need to understand anything beyond their wishes.  keep it simple 

[Stormy]

I’ve never heard of ze or xe but I think it is preferable to describing a singular person with a plural pronoun.  However I’m not going to spend any time telling non binary people what pronoun they should use. 

[pubic_assistance]

It's Ze 

Based on the German Sie which is the formal gender neutral for "you". 

It's the older gender neutral but form some reason the term "they" seems to have caught on with more people 

I agree it's confusing. 

[jeezifonly]

I use one or two initials, or the full name when referring to a person not personally known to me, and add ‘s for possessive tense. 

When reading/hearing someone else, I may ask for clarification re plurals and possession only if it matters. 99% of the time it doesn’t. 

 

[BonVivant]

It’s confusing. Makes no sense to me. 

[SirBillybob]

Sorry. Zé is spoken for, decades ago. That trumps all.

Edited July 5, 2023 by SirBillybob

[wsc]

I may be stuck in the past. If so, I'm sure some here will let me know.

The purpose of language is to facilitate communication, both oral and written. In order for language to fulfill its purpose, it's users must have a common understanding of the rules of usage (nouns, verbs, adjectives, and tenses, for example), as well as understanding and agreement on the meaning of words. When those with richer vocabularies communicate with those less enriched, clear communication suffers. Is it the responsibility of the more gifted to speak slowly and in fewer syllables to the hearer, or is it rather a hearer's opportunity to enrich themselves to a higher level of linguistic capability? (Gore Vidal once criticized Norman Mailer, saying that he (Mailer) never sent a reader to the dictionary. One man's clear communication is another man's teachable moment. It's a matter of perspective.)

Creating new applications for commonly used words and language conventions will also impede clear communications, unless and until the majority of people are on the same page, so to speak.

I try to be polite and civil in my dealings with all I meet and will willingly address someone as their apparent gender. If, for example, a man is dressed as woman (hair, dress, makeup) and it's not Halloween, I'll call him Ma'am. If it is Halloween, I'll stand mute until provided with clarification. But to expect me to remember the pronoun preferences of everyone I meet, especially if they run counter to the conventions I spent all my school years learning, may be too new a trick for too old a dog. It is, at any rate, confusing to the dog, as well as -in view of its rising prevalence- annoyingly tedious.

And why is consideration in this matter a one-way street, whereon I must give it but can't expect to get it?

[Xavitv]

 Not confusing at all. 

[Rudynate]

It reminds me of the controversy over Mrs/Ms/Miss in the '70s.  We made it through that. I m sure this will be similar.

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Rudynate

[+ purplekow]

I have found it confusing at times in both written and verbal communication.  In addition, I would try to respect an individual's desire to be addressed in a certain manner, with a certain pronoun, but the optimal word is try.  I would expect they or he or she or it, to realize that this is not the standard construction of the language and to accept that errors will be made.  

In my professional life, I interact with many people to whom English is a second language.  I do not correct each false step but I do ask for clarification when confused.  I have found that, for example, those native Tagalog speakers have difficulty with standard American he and she and often will switch pronouns, sometimes in the same sentence.  So if there is one Dr. Brown, I will assume in conversation that the pronoun used may not reflect the current standard use of that pronoun.  However, if there are two Drs. Brown, each a different sex, I would ask for clarification to insure I am understanding what is being said.  

Fortunately, I have not run into a situation where here are two Drs. Brown being mentioned by a person with English as a second language, , each of the Drs. Brown who identify with a pronoun different form than what might expected.  Wherein, Dr. chromosomal male Dr Brown prefers she and chromosomal female Dr. Brown prefers They.  Which, it seems to me would lead to significant confusion.   Who's on First style.            

"He did?."  

"Yes she did,"  

"Oh so she did too."  

"No she did but they did not."  

"Yes she did, but they did not."   "So he did and she did not".

"That is not right, they did not but she did".

"But he did too?".

 "Well not he, she did".

"Oh so she did, and he did not."

 "Well, She did.  They did not.  There was no He."

"Ah, so when you said She did, I did not know you meant he did and when you said they did not I though you meant that he and she did not but you meant she did not and he did but by she did you mean he did".  

"Yes." "

 "Well that is clear now."

Edited July 5, 2023 by purplekow

[mike carey]

Not confusing at all.

[+ José Soplanucas]

Perhaps the issue is that the confusion about how to understand genders nowadays precedes and explains the confusion around pronoun use. There is no confusion but resistance to accept and embrace genders' new status quo. Perhaps.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

3 hours ago, purplekow said:

would try to respect an individual's desire to be addressed in a certain manner, with a certain pronoun, but the optimal word is try.

"Try" is the key - when dealing with any uncertain subject matter.  Once the person knows you're trying, they almost always will assist w your understanding & usage.  
It's an opportunity to learn something - take it

not complicated, unless the desire is to make it complicated 

 

[+ DynamicUno]

I don't get the "confusion" over this use of they/them.  In my work, I often correspond with production and other colleagues overseas, where the names are not obviously gendered for Westerners.  They/them is perfectly gramattical in this context and intelligible by everyone in the conversation without having to go into gender inquiries.  Honestly, many Asian languages do not have gendered pronouns, so they often make errors translating into English.

For example:

• "Ngoc Quan is preparing the PPAP documents, they will send it to me by week's end.
• "Nakayama-san requested that I send them a presentation for the Penske account last week."

Using they/them for non-binary people is no different in my understanding than using it in cases where their gender is not specified or unknown.  

Edited July 5, 2023 by DynamicUno

[Guest]

19 hours ago, José Soplanucas said:

I am confused by your confusion. It is clear when you read the article.

Yes, I obviously figured it out, but with the first sentences, it was confusing. The use of gender-neutral pronouns would eliminate having to figure things out. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, purplekow said:

... I have found that, for example, those native Tagalog speakers have difficulty with standard American he and she...

I notice that as well, but only with Filipino patients, strangely enough. Chinese also doesn't distinguish between between male and female with grammar (in Mandarin, there's only "ta," which roughly translates to "it"), yet I never experienced someone from a Chinese background to have trouble with "he" or "she." I'd be curious to understand why the difference. That being said, I can only recall that happening about half a dozen of times in my 30-year career, despite having about 100 Filipino patients. Those confusions were memorable, however, in how surprising they felt for me.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, mike carey said:

Not confusing at all.

There are certainly members who would manage to disagree with me if I were to state that Lake Superior is wet. I probably don't give a lot of weight to those members' thoughtful 4-word sentence contradictions. 

[+ Charlie]

There is a long article in today's LA Times (based on an AP article) about the shooting rampage in Philadelphia Monday that left 5 people dead and several injured. It begins, "A 40-year-old person killed" the victims. Throughout the article, the perpetrator is referred to as the shooter, the individual, the person, etc., but no reference is ever made to the gender of the suspect, although the assailant's outfit of ski mask and body armor is described. Quotations from observers of the shootings never  include any words that would reveal the gender of the shooter, who is in police custody. Perhaps the police are waiting to find out from the person's lawyer what pronouns the person prefers.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Charlie

[Guest]

Going through my e-mail, I received this from the Rainbow Railroad... 🙄

"...After sending out a recent mailing, it has come to our attention that an error was made. The mail house contractor we use, in validating our data, erroneously added an honorific (like Mr., Ms., Dr. etc.) to a large number of the individuals we mailed as part of our Pride Campaign. This was a system error, but it should not have happened. We are sorry. 

As an LGBTQI+ organization that stands in solidarity with our trans and nonbinary community, as a practice, Rainbow Railroad does not use or require honorifics, and in fact, several individuals we sent this mailing to brought this to our attention with concern. We're grateful to these people for pointing out this error. We have taken the necessary steps with our mail house contractor to ensure this does not happen again.

Finally, we unreservedly apologize if you received one of these mailings and it impacted your willingness or desire to support us. While not our intention, we take full accountability for the fact this happened. 

Please feel free to reply if you have any questions or wish to ensure Rainbow Railroad documents your pronouns as part of your record. And, of course, if you have any questions about the ongoing impact and importance of your support - especially as part of this mailing campaign - we're here to respond...".

Yes, of course. I would let members of our LBGT community get stoned to death in Iran or Uganda because someone called me "Dr." 🙄🙄

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

On 7/4/2023 at 1:59 PM, DynamicUno said:

Not confused at all.  They/them/their have been used in a singular gender indefinite sense since Shakespeare. Honestly I prefer that over newly constructed pronouns.

I agree that "they" is a familiar pronoun and preferred over the fad words conjectured in the past few years.  Remember that "One" is also an established gender neutral pronoun widely in use for the past few centuries.  For example:. "What one does with one's free time is of no relevance to one's employer"

And then of course a speaker can refrain from the use of established pronouns and use proper nouns instead.  For example: "Elmo likes to be tickled" or "Ezra wants attention".

Edited July 5, 2023 by Vegas_Millennial