Client Etiquette: Don’t ask how much, and then say it’s too much…

[SouthOfTheBorder]

1 hour ago, Decatur Guy said:

And if someone finds that too much of burden reply to, well, we don't need to meet up anyway.

agree.  the assumption seems to be that an inquiry about rate is somehow binding for a subsequent immediate hire.  given rates are all over the place these days, an inquiry is essential to know if we’re even in the ballpark

my process to hire a new provider never happens in the moment and that’s intentional.  typically the tone & type of response from a provider tells me a lot more about their disposition and professionalism than I can see in an ad.  
if someone seems bothered, then my gut tells me they won’t be great experience in person and that’s a no.  there are plenty of charming professionals that will welcome a legitimate question about rates & other necessary details

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[pubic_assistance]

59 minutes ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

the assumption seems to be that an inquiry about rate is somehow binding for a subsequent immediate hire

Occasionally ..yes. I feel this way.

I have inquired about a provider's rate, was quoted an outrageous price and I say thank you and move on.

Occasionally the young man will ask if I am "looking for now"...so I reply that the price is out of my range.

Again....50/50 some end the conversation there and others continue "how much didn't you WANT to pay ?" This is where I end the conversation with this response: "I would never ask someone to do their job for less than they feel they are worth "

End of conversation.

I find it truly tacky to negotiate a person's worth.

We're not buying a car ..this is a human being.

[DWnyc]

12 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Occasionally ..yes. I feel this way.

I have inquired about a provider's rate, was quoted an outrageous price and I say thank you and move on.

Occasionally the young man will ask if I am "looking for now"...so I reply that the price is out of my range.

Again....50/50 some end the conversation there and others continue "how much didn't you WANT to pay ?" This is where I end the conversation with this response: "I would never ask someone to do their job for less than they feel they are worth "

End of conversation.

I find it truly tacky to negotiate a person's worth.

We're not buying a car ..this is a human being.

But if the provider himself is inviting you to negotiate by not ending the conversation, it can’t be binding, and for the same reason as you state, why deprive him of a shot at improving his economics? 

Walking away leaving his respect and worth (apparently) unchallenged but zero dollars in his pocket  may not be what the provider actually wants particularly if he’s the one initiating the negotiation.

And of course if the provider does prefer zero dollars for whatever reason, that’s totally his prerogative.

Edited April 23, 2023 by DWnyc

[dbar123]

Jarrod- I think you are being a bit hasty to dis people who are telling you that your fees are too expensive. If, say, 19 out of 20 people tell you that you’re too high, it’s very useful market info. When I was in sales the worst possible outcome was the customer who went radio silent after I sent them a quote 

[DWnyc]

13 minutes ago, dbar123 said:

Jarrod- I think you are being a bit hasty to dis people who are telling you that your fees are too expensive. If, say, 19 out of 20 people tell you that you’re too high, it’s very useful market info. When I was in sales the worst possible outcome was the customer who went radio silent after I sent them a quote 

One can aim for a price based on one’s costs and profit target.

But what one will actually receive is not the same thing, and if that’s lower, those cost inputs or the profit target need revisiting. 

And per @dbar123‘s framing, if 19 out of 20 say prices are too high we should also remember there is no collusion between these folks providing feedback - there simply isn’t the means or desire. 
 

[JB_Studio38]

On 4/22/2023 at 2:03 AM, Simon Suraci said:

We providers can have the clearest, most straightforward, well communicated rates and policies on our ads. That’s ideal. Doesn’t matter. There will always be a percentage of prospective clients asking bird brain questions they can easily answer for themselves by checking the website or reviewing the ad content.

The question asking behavior doesn’t necessarily mean the client has bad intentions, or that they’re trying to play a game or negotiate for a more favorable rate. Maybe some are, but a lot of people are simply not that good at reading the information and need some hand holding. Even so, if they decide not to proceed for whatever reason, that’s their prerogative. If you get angry at them for asking (admittedly) an unnecessary question, you’re alienating them from ever hiring you in the future. 

I agree, it’s annoying wasting time answering questions to which clients already have the answers if they bothered to look. A considerable number of these question askers follow through and become clients, and of those, some become regulars/repeat. You have to sift through a lot of silt and muck to find a few gold nuggets. It’s tedious work, and not every pan yields a valuable reward. Customer service is never glamorous or enjoyable, but it’s a necessary part of running a good business.

 

I agree with this. However, let me BE CLEAR. I didn’t get angry at the question. And I didn’t get angry at the answer. In fact I wasn’t angry at all (nor am I saying you are saying I was angry). I was simply highlighting the combination: 

My RENTMASSEUR has the rates. So to ask me that to begin with, was redundant. The client in question isn’t stupid, he knows how to make a profile, upload a picture, and apparently is an expert on how much something should cost. Therefore finding my rate shouldn’t have been an issue. So there’s no reason to double my work, and then shoot me down in the process. 
 

I could have took the high road and not responded at all. I know some providers will block anyone who asks questions that are provided.

 

On 4/22/2023 at 7:37 AM, Monarchy79 said:

Always remember that you can’t impose your standards or beliefs of etiquette onto others. 

Carmax doesn’t haggle, 

Neiman Marcus doesn’t complain and never explains….

… and neither should you.

If you provide your pricing to a potential client and he responds with what he “can’t afford” and what he thinks you’re “worth”, simply don’t respond. 

 I wouldn’t even waste my time being offended. 

I agree (though idk about CarMaxx lol) And I’m not offended. I’m just making a statement. I know you are backing me, but people keep saying offended, angry, etc. There’s nothing in my message to him that conveys any of that. I was 💯 cordial and nice with him. In fact, it’s not even 1 person I’m discussing: I’m talking about ALL potentials who do that type of thing.

And I just say: if they’re going to ask how much, don’t get passive aggressive and put me down when I say the price. Otherwise, rephrase the question to better suit your needs, if you’re on a budget. Or, just read the ad. Avoid the humiliation on both parties. 
 

And I see this all time. For example, I was engaging with someone on the Goodwill app last night: because in my area RentMen/RentMasseur is mostly unknown. But it did help to run test the theory: if they don’t come with an offer, then aren’t trying to pay anything at all. Just trying to get your price and shoot you down, to be a jerk:

On 4/22/2023 at 5:39 PM, Decatur Guy said:

Are you aware that potential clients can't see your rates in the United States on RentMen? They can't unless access via a VPN, apparently.  

I’m going to repeat the same thing, in case you didn’t catch in the original message. It was not RentMen:

17 hours ago, Decatur Guy said:

Here's the bottom line: I hire off RM. Nothing else. If the provider has written a good ad, I have all the info I need except: rates. It doesn't have them. I'm not looking for a massage on RM. I'd go to a Masseur site for that. Therefore, I MUST ask the rate to know the rate. I CANNOT see it otherwise and I CANNOT read minds.

If someone can't reply to this:

Good afternoon. I just saw your profile on RM and liked it and your pictures, especially the one of you in your suit. May ask I your hourly in/out rates? Thank you.

And if someone finds that too much of burden reply to, well, we don't need to meet up anyway. I'm about to pay someone more than a day's worth of pay, and this is already too much to deal with? GMAFB.  If RM showed the rate, then I'd know and I wouldn't have to ask. 

It's NOT haggling to make the initial inquiry since I don't have the information. It's only haggling if I attempt to negotiate a different price, which I don't do. I agree -- that's insulting. Asking the first time when it's not viewable is not insulting. 

I truly don't understand why this is so hard to understand.



 

Again…

Again…

Let me say this one more time again: I’m not saying it’s a burden asking how much someone charges. It’s not haggling to ask, respond or decline, OR…OR, ask the person how much they’re looking to spend. That’s called QUESTIONS. There’s nothing wrong with a question. Period.

What I’m saying is: if the information is available, and someone still asks me how MUCH…then don’t come back and tell me it’s too much when I’m sitting here and displaying the info that’s necessary. 
 

You remember the phrase, if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it all? The extra commentary was unnecessary, unless you’re going to at least have the courtesy to put yourself on the line and say what you can pay. Otherwise, don’t waste yours or my time asking. 
 

And I like what  @Simon Suraci said but, maybe certain clients don’t need to be given second chances, if they come at me in THAT tone. In fact, the same person is likely to come around later, and lowball or time waste again. 

16 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

agree.  the assumption seems to be that an inquiry about rate is somehow binding for a subsequent immediate hire.  given rates are all over the place these days, an inquiry is essential to know if we’re even in the ballpark

my process to hire a new provider never happens in the moment and that’s intentional.  typically the tone & type of response from a provider tells me a lot more about their disposition and professionalism than I can see in an ad.  
if someone seems bothered, then my gut tells me they won’t be great experience in person and that’s a no.  there are plenty of charming professionals that will welcome a legitimate question about rates & other necessary details

 

And I welcome legitimate questions about rates and other necessary details. Like I said earlier, it’s not the question. It’s the approach. 

if a person is that eager and horny like he says, then it’s no reason to then descend into calling me TOO EXPENSIVE after saying I’m awesome twice. Like come on, who is he fooling?

Some of you guys are taking my post personally and then making it a personal issue. It’s not. Just read it from a subjective perspective versus seeing it like I’m saying asking any question is NOT etiquette. Asking a question isn’t bad etiquette.

 

 

5 hours ago, dbar123 said:

Jarrod- I think you are being a bit hasty to dis people who are telling you that your fees are too expensive. If, say, 19 out of 20 people tell you that you’re too high, it’s very useful market info. When I was in sales the worst possible outcome was the customer who went radio silent after I sent them a quote 

I know you’re being “subjective”, but 19 out of 20 people, really? I’m only asking anywhere from $125 to $300 for a visit. How is that even close to being 19/20 being too expensive when that’s what everyone here is used to paying?
 

Now If I was charging $10,000, MAYBE 19 out of 20 would be accurate, which wouldn’t bother me because all I’d need is that 1 out of 20 to get me through every 2-3 months. And I’d be set. Not having to deal with being called “too expensive” when I am being every bit as much affected by inflation and recession as a freelancer. I’m barely paying my bills. His offer probably wouldn’t of even been enough to pay my insurance bill, plus he’s not even in the same city as me and he’s already trying to put me down?

That said, I been on tour on/off this whole year: I booked a session at my prices in EVERY CITY I stayed. Some did 250, others did 500. One did 1,000. Again, people don’t need to gaslight me into believing something different than I KNOW is reality.

Anyhow, that client in question has been blocked: and I let him know he needs to educate himself before contacting someone like that again. Otherwise, the next person might say: I’m too expensive for you? Well I think you’re too cheap for me! 😂 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Jarrod_Uncut

[arnie]

  I have found that I ask some simple questions for local providers so it is not to fit into a 3 day visit.  Can you host if yes where in town are you ( general location)?  Any times you are or are not available and what do you charge.  I never make a counter offer to a provider.  You are in business, you set your rates.   Your business profitability is not my concern.  I actually hire an out of towner when he comes to town (Las Vegas)   He actually takes a room in a top hotel just for customers, he stays in a different top hotel.  I know he somehow gets free rooms but the details of all of this really are none of my concern.  And he charges a low rate as he is an older guy.

But the last thing I want to do is to state what you are worth to me.  And I find that when I have said you are too expensive, to offer a lower rate or ask me what I can spend is really a turnoff.  If you want 3 and we negotiate 2, I wonder if you will really be into offering your full attention or just dialing it in.  

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

I know some providers will block anyone who asks questions that are provided.

 

 

Oh my god I know a lot of these guys too and they’re all VERY successful in the business.  In fact, they’re among the most successful escorts that I know.  They often regale me with stories during our session of all the clients they block for not following the rules of initial contact. I don’t know much about business but this approach seems foolproof! 

[pubic_assistance]

20 hours ago, DWnyc said:

But if the provider himself is inviting you to negotiate by not ending the conversation, it can’t be binding, and for the same reason as you state, why deprive him of a shot at improving his economics? 

Because I consider it tacky.

If he WANTED to work for $ 500 an hour instead of $ 1000 an hour then that's what he should be advertising.

It's not MY job to teach him economics, and it's my impression that if I offer less than asked, I am going to GET less than what I expected.

I negotiate contracts all day long. I have never asked anyone to do the same job for less money. We only discuss ways of reducing the time consumption on the project. The worker's rate isn't changing.

[Lazarus]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

Because I consider it tacky.

If he WANTED to work for $ 500 an hour instead of $ 1000 an hour then that's what he should be advertising.

It's not MY job to teach him economics, and it's my impression that if I offer less than asked, I am going to GET less than what I expected.

I negotiate contracts all day long. I have never asked anyone to do the same job for less money. We only discuss ways of reducing the time consumption on the project. The worker's rate isn't changing.

I negotiate contracts also. I have found that most people will give you a number that is higher than what they would be willing to do the job for & will lower their rates to get that job rather than give it to someone else. Sounds like you are not a great negotiator. 

[pubic_assistance]

52 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

Sounds like you are not a great negotiator. 

Sounds like you work with a lot of people who try and screw you. I don't.

Which is my point.

If an escort wants to try and screw me over, I see no point in negotiating to meet someone like that.

I'd rather give my business to a more ethical provider. I am more likely to get better service .

Edited April 24, 2023 by pubic_assistance
grammar

[Lazarus]

8 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Sounds like you work with a lot of people who try and screw you. I don't.

Which is my point.

If an escort wants to try and screw me over, I see no point in negotiating to meet someone like that.

I'd rather give my business to a more ethical provider. I am more likely to get better service .

To be clear…I am talking about negotiating  contracts with business providers which you referenced in your original post not escorts or massages. 

[DWnyc]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

If an escort wants to try and screw me over, I see no point in negotiating to meet someone like that.

For the record please note my valiant efforts not to chime in with a smart comment here … 😉 

[DWnyc]

We can respectfully disagree.

I negotiate contracts also. Mostly with service providers, ranging from huge multinationals where my small firm doesn’t move the needle, to sole practioners, who have put their life and soul into building their business and where acquiring and maintaining our account can be critical.

As a cofounder of my firm I understand the idea of valuing one’s worth and not being bullied by those writing the checks, but I also can’t leave money on the table beyond a point. I provide the smaller and sole practioners much more grace on this but I also have fiduciary obligations.

I have heard more times than I can recall from small or sole practioners in my day job, and providers in the world we are discussing here, something on the lines of “rather than walking away when my first offer didn’t work, I just wish you had spoken to me and I’m sure we could have come to an arrangement”. That of course implies I’m reasonable and fair and wouldn’t push for a negotiation that would be impossible or uncomfortable. But it does mean that if the initial terms don’t work for me, and I walk away for fear of being “disrespectful” or “tacky” I may be depriving these guys the chance to earn their living, and that seems to me to be a crime in itself. If it still doesn’t work for them or me even after respectful conversations where they are equal participants, they totally have the right to walk away just as I do. If they or I feel that even having such a conversation is futile, or a waste of time and resources, we shouldn’t have it. 

I’ll reiterate that I personally have never initiated a negotiation with a provider, and I always tip unless I feel there is a specific reason not to, and I’d rather hire less than push for arrangements where a provider feels resentment. Im just surprised that the discussion has moved to the point where even accepting a provider’s invitation to revisit price is somehow offensive. 

[DWnyc]

2 hours ago, Simon Suraci said:

 

It’s so much better to pay the prevailing price and get better service, no change orders, and a smooth process. It’s not worth the headache and penny pinching mentality to hire below market.

I mostly agree but have difficulty with this last point.  Terms like “prevailing price” and “below market” imply these metrics exist and are known to the two parties in the negotiation. I don’t think that’s the case in the provider industry. I’m not comparing the premium guys whether delusional porn stars or actual quality experienced professionals with the tweaked guys hovering outside the Greyhound Terminal. Nor am I comparing those clients who show as much grace and respect as they can muster with those who negotiate rudely on everything as a knee jerk response to any opening offer or stated price. 

But as we head into a potential global recession, I expect to see more negotiating in every industry including this one, and if the preference is really less volume and maintaining quoted prices wherever they come from,  I’d say fine, but only if the end profit for providers was the same (or more). Im just not sure it always is.  

[pubic_assistance]

1 hour ago, DWnyc said:

I’ll reiterate that I personally have never initiated a negotiation with a provider, and I always tip unless I feel there is a specific reason not to, and I’d rather hire less than push for arrangements where a provider feels resentment. Im just surprised that the discussion has moved to the point where even accepting a provider’s invitation to revisit price is somehow offensive. 

I am aware that people have different negotiating styles. Mine is always the gentleman's agreement, and no one ever feels slighted. I live in NYC where sharks surround victims in business deals, daily. I never want to be one of those people. They may have handshakes and smiles in the board room, but are always the ones spoken of in hatred behind their back.

[jeezifonly]

I’m reminded of a colleague who griped to us at work about all the evenings she had to spend every week leaving bad Yelp and Amazon reviews for everything that wasted her time. 

 

[italianboyph]

Honestly if RM allowed you to post the rates on there, I feel like it would help avoid all the back and forth. That way the price is already shown and if they can't do the price, they can move on.

[JB_Studio38]

1 hour ago, italianboyph said:

Honestly if RM allowed you to post the rates on there, I feel like it would help avoid all the back and forth. That way the price is already shown and if they can't do the price, they can move on.

I have emailed RentMen and Adam multiple times asking to allow rates again, even if it’s just to say booking cost or massage price etc. neither seem in a hurry to do so.

Hate to say it, but they’re part of the solution and the headache. The timewasters are just the by-product. If I was running the site, I would not even allow people to contact me, unless they clicked on my rate. It’d say something like: CLICK HERE FOR MY PRICE AND PHONE NUMBER. 
 

Matter of fact, I used to direct clients to my client introduction page on my site. Now, I have my pricing page as the homepage. Because some people will claim to not even know how to find that, even though they brilliantly found my number on RentMasseur, skipping over all the other boxes. 

[+ APPLE1]

@pubic_assistance "... handshakes and smiles in the board room..." but that's really what we are talking about here aren't we? There's no written contract that says "paying $X, will entitle you to A, C, and H."  

And @Simon Suraci that's one of the key difference from a construction contract. Neither party has a enforceable contract, and therefore, no way to force the other to conform to the agreement.  

In another posting @Jamie21 said one his clients stated “oh, cash…it’s always cash only for my dealer, my cleaner and my hooker!” That really hits the nail on the head for the the deals clients are making here with providers. That, at least in the US, these deals  aren't really above board. I submit that it's implicit to nearly any illegal deal, for most people, to assume that there's room for negotiation in what will be paid and recieved.  

Is it wrong, or tacky, or cheap, to negotiate with a dealer or a cleaner? I assume some of you are thinking that 'I can't go to a dispensary and negotiate,' but keep in mind, since they are truly legal, there are state remedies if they falsely advertise or misrepresent what they are selling.  

Likewise, I am sure some people are thinking 'that this is a "personal" and "intimate" service, so it falls outside the bounds of what should be negotiated for.' BUT, I assume providers negotiate with one another. I assume that every threesome ever done was not a 50/50 split. I assume every only fans video ever shot wasn't a 50/50 split. I assume that porn studios negotiate with actors for what they are paying them. Obviously, when it comes right down to it, the adding of photography or a third person makes the act(s) being done no less personal or intimate

[+ APPLE1]

6 hours ago, Simon Suraci said:

Tying back to the OP question…the baseline is known (or easily knowable with the smallest bit of research)...

I am assuming when you say "known" and "knowable," you are referring to 'asking price.' If you are talking about actual 'paid price,' I assume that you actually mean to say "assumed" and "assumable." I don't mean to be snide, but unless you're doing books for friends or colleagues, you can only assume that they are being honest and up front with you. We may have different views of humanity, but I believe, even with friends, people often over inflate their personal and business prowess.

In my time here, albeit short, I have seen a number posts from providers talk about their rates and negotiations. On the opposite side of the coin, I have seen a number of clients make statements about not willing to pay X to a provider and/or negotiating. What I haven't seen said, or asked, is what clients pay for X service, or what the quoted rate was for X and what negotiations finished out at.

Maybe it would be a good topic for a forum? 🤷🏻

And yes, I would assume, some client responses would have over inflated prowess.

[DWnyc]

8 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

I am aware that people have different negotiating styles. Mine is always the gentleman's agreement, and no one ever feels slighted. I live in NYC where sharks surround victims in business deals, daily. I never want to be one of those people. They may have handshakes and smiles in the board room, but are always the ones spoken of in hatred behind their back.

With due respect how on earth do you know for a fact that “no one” ever feels slighted? How do you know you are not spoken of in a way that may surprise you behind your back?

Yours truly,

Fellow New Yorker

[DWnyc]

We can agree, disagree, disrespect, admire etc each other for our positions. Doesn’t sound like anyone is changing anyone else’s opinions on this but it’s been interesting hearing some views I hadn’t considered even if I find them surprising or disagree.

The bottom line, literally, is that negotiation will be a part of this business for the foreseeable future and maybe always. Regardless of if some find it tacky, abusive, an affront to a human being’s worth etc.

It takes two to negotiate with resolution. Neither a client or a provider is putting a gun to the other’s head and either can walk away at any time if the situation is offensive enough to outweigh business sense. 

[DWnyc]

11 minutes ago, Simon Suraci said:

Some providers are open to negotiation, however most are not. I advise against clients initiating a negotiation because in my opinion I agree with others that it’s tacky, or at best a waste of both parties’ time.

My personal experience is different on the “most are not” issue. I would place it more at 50% over the last year. But we can agree to disagree, and as I’ve caveated with every post I’ve made on this, I’ll repeat I’ve never initiated a negotiation with a provider, and i’m Including the times a provider has wanted to keep negotiating while I have lost interest. I’ve never led anyone down the path of negotiation just for fun, it has always been out of politeness and curiosity, and the minute I’ve felt this won’t work I’ve ended the conversation out of respect for their time (and mine) and so as not to set false expectations.

It may be an issue of sample set or subset of the market or a peculiarity oF my geography (Boston down to DC including New York).   i’m just trying to understand how our perspectives could be so different (on the prevalence of providers being open to negotiate, not the issue of if it’s tacky etc or not).

I’ll add the gentlemen I’m speaking about are all from RM so I’m not including those who eg have hit me up on dating sites or on the subway (it’s a thing …), I’m very mindful of each new hire so I check out their reviews on the site and on here including DM with people who’ve engaged them. Don’t think I’ve ever engaged someone who didn’t have at least one credible positive review. These aren’t guys from the bottom of the barrel by any means and I would say they are typically mid price in my market with some at the premium end. 

[+ Jamie21]

2 hours ago, APPLE1 said:

In another posting @Jamie21 said one his clients stated “oh, cash…it’s always cash only for my dealer, my cleaner and my hooker!” That really hits the nail on the head for the the deals clients are making here with providers. That, at least in the US, these deals  aren't really above board. I submit that it's implicit to nearly any illegal deal, for most people, to assume that there's room for negotiation in what will be paid and recieved.  

Hey I loved that comment from my client! As he said it he pulled out a big wad of notes and peeled a few off to pay me. I imagined he was then going to meet his dealer (if there’s a stereotype of someone who’s off to meet his dealer my client certainly wasn’t that….he looked more like he was heading to church on a Sunday!). 

6 hours ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

Now, I have my pricing page as the homepage.

Great idea. My pricing is on a separate page that clients seem unable to find. I think I’ll put all the ‘deal breakers’ on the home page: Rates, location, availability. So many times the arrangements have progressed a little only for the client to say ‘oh that’s out of my budget’…or, ‘Oh you’re in London? I thought you were in xxx (usually some obscure corner of their home city or town in the US??)’.