Alcoholism, Obesity.... Compulsive Behaviors? Choices?

[TumYum]

This puzzles me.

Friend #1.... professional, "successful", etc. alcoholic, had to do in-patient detox, then in-patient rehab. Managed to stay sober for a year or so, but I just received a text from him that he had a "relapse" and is "at a detox".

Friend #2.... highly paid attorney, "successful", etc. morbidly obese, had some sort of gastric surgery a few years back, has permanently ruined knees and hips, lost weight, regained it...

are these two behaviors similar? why do people make bad choices.... or is it something that i do not understand - some sort of "demon" deep inside that forces people to do things .... or do they not even understand the consequences of their choices.

i am troubled. and i cannot even begin to understand the causes here. some say they are different: one can live without alcohol but not without food.... but what about excess as the common denominator.

i am confused.

[+ purplekow]

Both of the conditions you mention have a genetic component and a volitional component.  But even when there are concerted efforts to stop drinking or to lose weight, there are more failure than success.  

Cigarette smoking is the one addiction that confounds me.  People can quit cigarettes and then, months later at a party perhaps, they will have a cigarette.  That lapse is understandable.  It is the going out the next day and buying a pack of cigarettes which is confusing to me.  

[maninsoma]

You're troubled and confused?  Is that because you are trying to figure out how to help these friends develop healthier behaviors that they say they want your help with?  If so, I'd say the "why" is less important than the "how can I help you?"

People do all sorts of things that aren't the best choice.  Many people live beyond their means -- not because they don't have the funds to meet their basic needs but because they spend money on things they don't actually "need."  Many people have risky sex when, if judged from an intellectual, detached point of view, seemingly should be easy for people to avoid.  There's no denying that true monogamy (i.e., not one where one or both partners is actually having outside sexual contact) eliminates the spread of STDs; are we to judge everyone who chooses to have a different kind of sex life?  Basically, everyone who participates on this website engages in some sort of "troubling" and "confusing" behavior if one believes that humans should always behave in a manner which best supports their physical health.  I'd rather not go down that slippery slope.

[topunderachiever]

Some insist addiction is for the weak.  It is extremely complicated and we can call it a disease if you wish. 

But why can most avoid it while others can't.  Eating, smoking, gambling, drinking, sex, meth, hoarding, etc.  

Any can be succumbed to.  And all can be overcome or avoided with an extreme desire and/or will.  

[+ sync]

My understanding, from listening to behavior specialists, is that many of the addictive and destructive behaviors are actually only symptoms of the real problems.

That being the case, getting to an effective and lasting solution is likely to be an emotionally intensive and time-consuming commitment.

Being afflicted with just one habitual excessive craving has to be draining, being afflicted with more than one must be pure hell, especially if there is the financial drain that comes with the addiction to drugs and/or gambling.

Whenever I see/read/hear of the trials of these individuals, it inspires me to re-count my blessings. 

 

[+ purplekow]

1 hour ago, sync said:

My understanding, from listening to behavior specialists, is that many of the addictive and destructive behaviors are actually only symptoms of the real problems.

That being the case, getting to an effective and lasting solution is likely to be an emotionally intensive and time-consuming commitment.

Being afflicted with just one habitual excessive craving has to be draining, being afflicted with more than one must be pure hell, especially if there is the financial drain that comes with the addiction to drugs and/or gambling.

Whenever I see/read/hear of the trials of these individuals, it inspires me to re-count my blessings. 

 

An interesting side effect of bariatric surgery for weight loss is not only  regaining the lost weight but in a statistically significant number of patients, the development of other different addictive behaviors...gambling, sex, alcohol, drugs.  So in addition to the excessive eating and resultant excess weight which may be caused by poor satiety recognition, slower than average metabolic rates or any number of other causes, there seems to be come connection to other obsessive behaviors which establish themselves once the weight is under control.   

[Luv2play]

2 hours ago, maninsoma said:

You're troubled and confused?  Is that because you are trying to figure out how to help these friends develop healthier behaviors that they say they want your help with?  If so, I'd say the "why" is less important than the "how can I help you?"

People do all sorts of things that aren't the best choice.  Many people live beyond their means -- not because they don't have the funds to meet their basic needs but because they spend money on things they don't actually "need."  Many people have risky sex when, if judged from an intellectual, detached point of view, seemingly should be easy for people to avoid.  There's no denying that true monogamy (i.e., not one where one or both partners is actually having outside sexual contact) eliminates the spread of STDs; are we to judge everyone who chooses to have a different kind of sex life?  Basically, everyone who participates on this website engages in some sort of "troubling" and "confusing" behavior if one believes that humans should always behave in a manner which best supports their physical health.  I'd rather not go down that slippery slope.

I disagree with conflating human drives such as eating with sexual drives. Both are core drives in the human species, indeed all species of life. But the behaviour associated with each as you point out can lead to unhealthy outcomes.

With eating too much the outcome is obvious. Obesity. With having too much sex, well, what is the outcome. Not so simple. Some say an active sex life is healthy and you can't really get too much of it.

Some choose to suppress their sex drive and that can be very unhealthy. The only unhealthy part of sexual activity is transmitted diseases. These need to be avoided as much as possible but there is always going to be some risk if one wants to satisfy their sexual urges.  

It is best to recognize this and act accordingly.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Luv2play

[+ nycman]

As a close friend once said to me….

"You don’t understand alcoholism….because you’re not an alcoholic."

It doesn’t make "sense" and it sure as fuck isn’t logical. It just is. 

Hopefully, your heart is big enough to love them with their flaws, and theirs is big enough to love you with yours. 

[+ tassojunior]

I was addicted to the Hokey-Pokey but I turned myself around. 

[+ tassojunior]

I sometimes wonder if people knew they had addictions before mirrors were invented. Obesity's a tough one since some people have genetic issues. But let's be honest, it's not just genetics in most of us. Americans' genes didn't just mutate mid-century. We need to fix ourselves as much as we can. I know it's not easy. But yes, most of us obese people are contributing to our own risk for serious covid. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by tassojunior

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

Addictive and cyclical behaviors are difficult.

Most people can't curb them on their own and don't connect the need for therapy in dealing with their issues regarding food, drugs, etc.

You can't just magically get surgery and be thin and healthy.  It doesn't work like that.  You have to first understand why you were obese in the first place and mentally work through your relationship with food.

The same goes for major drug, gambling or any other addictive behaviors that impair a normal, productive life.

I am a type-A to a fault, so addiction isn't something I deal with.  That said, I've put many people I love through programs and done whatever I can to patiently stand by and help them, but not enable them.

OP:  As others have said here, it's not why, but that it's happening.  If you want to be a good friend, you make yourself available if they need you.  You can dictate how deep you want to get entrenched.

 

 

[CuriousByNature]

4 hours ago, tassojunior said:

I was addicted to the Hokey-Pokey but I turned myself around. 

So you're saying that's what it's all about?

[+ E.T.Bass]

A friend of mine is obese.  He is very talented and successful. I don't understand why he is obese. 

Worrying does not help.  

I would miss him if something happened.

I quit smoking 20 years ago.  I was addicted and smoked a lot.

Quitting was not easy.  I wouldn't try to explain how to quit.  That would be of little use.

Kudos to #1 and #2 for trying and for trying again.

[+ purplekow]

7 hours ago, Benjamin_Nicholas said:

Addictive and cyclical behaviors are difficult.

 

 

 

I am a type-A to a fault, so addiction isn't something I deal with.  That said, I've put many people I love through programs and done whatever I can to patiently stand by and help them, but not enable them.

 

It is interesting that you would classify yourself as type A and state that as a result you do not deal with addiction. While Type B personalities tend to be impulsive and therefore seem to be at high risk for addiction, Type A personalities tend to be driven and live under a greater amount of self imposed stress which they assume they can handle.  Eventually the stress in their life may lead to addiction to drugs, particularly anti-anxiety medications, sleep medications and alcohol.   Personality Types are rarely pure, with most of us having qualities of both types, but the more Type A you are, the more you are likely to be driven, consumed by perfection and intolerant of others, all traits which would lend to use of drugs and alcohol.  

 

 

 

[+ augustus]

10 hours ago, nycman said:

As a close friend once said to me….

"You don’t understand alcoholism….because you’re not an alcoholic."

It doesn’t make "sense" and it sure as fuck isn’t logical. It just is. 

Hopefully, your heart is big enough to love them with their flaws, and theirs is big enough to love you with yours. 

I try to be sympathetic to alcoholics and don't judge them, but man, they can be really difficult to deal with.  

[MscleLovr]

I agree with @augustus but I simply avoid spending any time with alcoholics. 
 

As to the other behavior cited by the OP, I’m grateful now that the maxim “moderation in all things” was drummed into me by my old-fashioned parents.
 

It was also lucky for me that (with them being quite middle-aged when I was born) their habits became ingrained in me: eating regular meals at the dining table, no eating between meals, a healthy diet of fish, meat, fruit and vegetables with sugary items being limited, and no eating outside the house except in proper restaurants.

As the sage writer on food, Michael Pollan advised “eat only food that your grandmother would recognize”.

[+ Pensant]

12 hours ago, purplekow said:

An interesting side effect of bariatric surgery for weight loss is not only  regaining the lost weight but in a statistically significant number of patients, the development of other different addictive behaviors...gambling, sex, alcohol, drugs.

You bring up an interesting point. A former friend and business associate became morbidly obese and finally had the bariatric surgery. He then became an alcoholic. After his surgery, I never saw him eat a meal. When out for business meals, he’d pick at the food and then have it boxed. He also developed early onset dementia. The last time I saw him was June 2017, when we had breakfast at the country club. We had occasional calls; but his dementia made them excruciating. He was in and out of rehab and starting spending enormous amounts on vacations, which he cancelled at the last minute with no refund. While in Europe in late Summer of 2019, I heard from his sister that his estranged wife had found him dead. He was 62.

[+ WilliamM]

17 hours ago, TumYum said:

This puzzles me.

Friend #1.... professional, "successful", etc. alcoholic, had to do in-patient detox, then in-patient rehab. Managed to stay sober for a year or so, but I just received a text from him that he had a "relapse" and is "at a detox".

Friend #2.... highly paid attorney, "successful", etc. morbidly obese, had some sort of gastric surgery a few years back, has permanently ruined knees and hips, lost weight, regained it...

are these two behaviors similar? why do people make bad choices.... or is it something that i do not understand - some sort of "demon" deep inside that forces people to do things .... or do they not even understand the consequences of their choices.

i am troubled. and i cannot even begin to understand the causes here. some say they are different: one can live without alcohol but not without food.... but what about excess as the common denominator.

i am confused.

Alcoholism runs in my family, my grandfather and uncle ruined their lives and my grandmother's life. I haven't gotten drunk since 1976. But, every day is still a  challenge.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

5 hours ago, purplekow said:

It is interesting that you would classify yourself as type A and state that as a result you do not deal with addiction. While Type B personalities tend to be impulsive and therefore seem to be at high risk for addiction, Type A personalities tend to be driven and live under a greater amount of self imposed stress which they assume they can handle.  Eventually the stress in their life may lead to addiction to drugs, particularly anti-anxiety medications, sleep medications and alcohol.   Personality Types are rarely pure, with most of us having qualities of both types, but the more Type A you are, the more you are likely to be driven, consumed by perfection and intolerant of others, all traits which would lend to use of drugs and alcohol. 

Well, shit.  That's interesting.

That said, it's just not in my nature to use drugs or drink in excess. 

Type-A or otherwise, addiction just ain't me.

[pubic_assistance]

It's all self medicating.

People drink to get away from bad feelings.

People eat because it makes them happier.

People smoke because it calms them down.

People do drugs to make the world go away.

Anxiety and depression are extremely common and rarely identified and treated.

[+ sync]

1 hour ago, WilliamM said:

Alcoholism runs in my family, my grandfather and uncle ruined their lives and my grandmother's life. I haven't gotten drunk since 1976. But, every day is still a  challenge.

Alcoholism ran in the older generation of my family also.  

I honestly believe I was on the way to follow suit, but something snapped me away from it, for which I am very grateful. 

[MikeBiDude]

4 hours ago, MscleLovr said:

I agree with @augustus but I simply avoid spending any time with alcoholics

How do you identify them as alcoholics?

[MscleLovr]

38 minutes ago, MikeBiDude said:

How do you identify them as alcoholics?

Fair question @MikeBiDude Over the years, I’ve known several as acquaintances and socially met a couple.  A few have confided in me and I’ve witnessed the messy behavior of others. I know it’s an addiction but I just do not want to be involved with them. 

[+ tassojunior]

Drug addiction and alcohol addiction are not just mental but very often physical. Besides the obvious painful life-threatening withdrawals from heroin without medication, alcohol withdrawal is physically severe. I had a "10" regular from a top family who had to keep a shot glass full by the bed for waking up in withdrawal in the middle of the night. And him driving his convertible when his hands were shaking was the worst. 

In contrast most of us with obesity problems usually are simply gluttons. We'd have to cut a lot more calories before our bodies are threatened by too few. I wish it were as easy as getting a vaccine, but obesity is usually a "choice" that affects health and certainly covid severity.   

[marylander1940]

21 hours ago, purplekow said:

Both of the conditions you mention have a genetic component and a volitional component.  But even when there are concerted efforts to stop drinking or to lose weight, there are more failure than success.  

Cigarette smoking is the one addiction that confounds me.  People can quit cigarettes and then, months later at a party perhaps, they will have a cigarette.  That lapse is understandable.  It is the going out the next day and buying a pack of cigarettes which is confusing to me.  

Yes, is volitional but we have a sedentary lifestyle and we have bad food choices and even food deserts where bad things are the only available food. We also subsidize corn syrup and other things to make food cheaper, therefore we have a clear connection between obesity and poverty in the USA.

American fast food companies have also exported obesity to other parts of the world like the Middle East where unlike here being chubby is seen as a sign of wealth. 

One more thing we Americans used to be taller and athletic all the way to the 70s specially in the middle of the county and the South, now is the opposite. 

7 hours ago, augustus said:

I try to be sympathetic to alcoholics and don't judge them, but man, they can be really difficult to deal with.  

 

What makes them alcoholics, is it having a drink at night or drinking on occasion till losing control the sign of alcoholism?