Non-Tipper

[Nightowl]

3 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Correct.

Your explanation of business expenses has nothing to do with tipping. That's a matter of the provider setting their price for the service.

I do agree if you feel a provider has set the bar too low, for the quality of service, than a tip should be provided out of pity for their lack of business acumen.

I don't agree with your viewpoint that keeping 100% of the fee has no relationship to a business (such as a restaurant) where the tip is given to an EMPLOYEE.  Unless working st a spa, a masseur is a BUSINESS OWNER, not an employee. So ..NO...a tip is NOT a requirement for a business owner, unless you wish to thank them for EXCEPTIONAL service (or extras).

The exception, (as noted above) is IF you feel their price was undervalued. But then you are actually correcting their mistake, not really "tipping".  Giving them a "tip" in this case would be better if you handed them 30% more and SAID: "you should charge more for such wonderful service."

I recently gave a provider twice what he asked for that exact reason.  His price was way too low for the full service he gave me.  

[pubic_assistance]

1 minute ago, Nightowl said:

I recently gave a provider twice what he asked for that exact reason.  His price was way too low for the full service he gave me.  

I have certainly run across this myself. As I stated above...I didn't hand the extra money over as JUST "a tip". I shared my opinion that he should consider charging more, becasue the quality of the service warranted a higher price.

I've even shared this same opinion after observation with restaurant owners with whom I am friendly, when they open a new location. If the price seemed off compared to the quality of food and service, I am less inclined to simply take advantage, and more inclined to help my friend understand their true value.

I hear too many stories here on CoM about people who are happily exploiting young escorts who haven't yet figured out their value. I have always made a point to educate the naive, and give pointers on how they may increase value  to their customers and simultaneously increase their income.

[+ BOZO T CLOWN]

On 1/25/2025 at 12:07 PM, CuriousByNature said:

I agree from that perspective, and I know it isn't a perfect analogy by any stretch (pun intended).   But my comment was meant to highlight a customer or client's attitude, not the effect tipping or not tipping has on the employee or masseur.   The idea that because the product is already pricey, there is no need to give an extra tip for good services.  This sort of attitude does not make much sense to me, but maybe that's just me.

There is absolutely ZERO equivalency between a restaurant server and a masseur. ZERO.

Most servers are minimum wage workers. Many states, including NY, NJ, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Mass., Michigan, and Ohio, exempt tipped employees from their minimum wage; therefore, these tipped workers rely on tips simply to bring their compensation up to their states' minimum wage.
Also, many restaurants pool charged tips among the staff. So if you put your tip on a credit card, your server will only receive a percentage of it. Tips are also fully taxable to local, state and federal governments (though as we all know, this is likely to change). It is for these reasons that Bozo always tips in cash. Waiting tables is very physically demanding.  Servers are on their feet usually for their entire 6 or 8-hour shift, often carrying heavy trays, and are subject to the whims of their employer and the local business climate.
As @pubic_assistance rightly pointed out, masseurs are independent contractors. They set their own hours, rates, standards, and business practices. As for any expenses, those are already baked into the prices they charge their customers. Since most of us pay our masseurs in cash, the likelihood of all, or any, of their payments being reported for tax purposes is remote.

BTC
🤡

[Ali Gator]

On 1/24/2025 at 9:35 AM, CuriousByNature said:

I'm not a provider, but maybe it depends on whether or not you are able to afford a tip.  If you can afford to give a tip but are not doing so because you think he's getting enough at his regular rate already, to me, that is like going to a fancy restaurant and not tipping because the dishes are already expensive.  In that case perhaps it is bad form. 

This is not a correct analogy, because the server is working for someone else who has set the prices (the server did not set the prices). If the owner of the restaurant was also your server, there would be no need to tip him - he's the owner who set his prices and profit margins. 

As a former business owner in a service industry,  I never tip my provider - they are working independently for themselves, and therefore have determined their own pricing / profit margins to make a successful living once they began their business of massage / escort. If they are charging $200 for a one-hour massage, then they have determined that the $200 covers all expenses for the hour, and the rest is profit (that includes hotel expenses if it's a traveling provider). If they want to throw in 'extras' -  to me that's part of what sets them apart from the competition and has me returning to him as a regular client. That's pretty much a standard model for every business surviving these days in the service industry (though they don't usually call them 'extras' - they call them 'rewards program' for their regulars).

Aside from masseurs and escorts, I also don't tip my barber (he owns the business, so he has set his rates in his business plan from the day he opened his shop), my pet groomer (she owns the business), my landscaper (he gave me the price of cutting my lawn each week), or my house-keeper (she gave me the price of what she charges to clean each week.) I do, however, bring each of them (including my regular masseur) an expensive gift at Christmas / New Year's. 

Back in the days of me going to NYC and hiring through the agencies - yes, I did tip the provider because I know the fee I was charged was shared with the agency (so for a $200 appointment, $50 went to the agency for booking the appointment and the guy kept $150 for himself, as it was explained to me once). But that was more than 20 years ago, and today every guy works for themselves and has set his prices. 

[BeamerBikes]

What someone pays in income tax relative to what I pay in income tax has no bearing to my approach to tipping.   

My fight with taxes is with my respective government officials, not with someone providing me a service that isn’t in a tax scale.  

 I don’t assess any service provider by what I perceive they pay in taxes.  If there’s great - reliable - consistent services rendered, I will choose to show appreciation in a variety of ways.  Cash just happens to be the most commonly appreciated.  
 

All that being said - I likewise endorse the idea that in lieu of tips, being a low drama reliable respectful client means more to any provider than a one timer who’s takes up your time and still ends up trying to short pay.  Having a regular client that states hey are you free tonight at 7pm (and usually shows up on time), there’s minimal back and forth, and a generally pleasant interaction for both - there’s base income that will keep the lights on.  
 

Another good sign - if you are still getting your appts taken by provider, odds are they okay with the arrangement.  

[Simon Suraci]

No. Pay his rate. That is all you’re responsible for. Enjoy!

[CuriousByNature]

11 hours ago, Ali Gator said:

This is not a correct analogy, because the server is working for someone else who has set the prices (the server did not set the prices). If the owner of the restaurant was also your server, there would be no need to tip him - he's the owner who set his prices and profit margins. 

I've acknowledged twice now that my analogy wasn't perfect, and that I was trying to address the attitude that some guys may have about providing a tip.  Again, the OP wondered if not giving a tip has impacted his relationship with his regular masseur.  My reply gave two potential scenarios to consider, that's all.  Now can we please let it go, so that the OP can hopefully get useful input rather than a bunch of ridiculous, pointless, and childish bickering?  Man, some of you guys are exhausting! LOL  🤣

Edited January 27 by CuriousByNature

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

On 1/25/2025 at 9:34 PM, aiseeya said:

Do you tip your lawyer (on top of their hourly rate)? Doctor? vet? Therapist? 

No, I do not.  Not even when they have sex with me 😊

[marylander1940]

On 1/26/2025 at 1:27 PM, BOZO T CLOWN said:

There is absolutely ZERO equivalency between a restaurant server and a masseur. ZERO.

Most servers are minimum wage workers. Many states, including NY, NJ, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Mass., Michigan, and Ohio, exempt tipped employees from their minimum wage; therefore, these tipped workers rely on tips simply to bring their compensation up to their states' minimum wage.
Also, many restaurants pool charged tips among the staff. So if you put your tip on a credit card, your server will only receive a percentage of it. Tips are also fully taxable to local, state and federal governments (though as we all know, this is likely to change). It is for these reasons that Bozo always tips in cash. Waiting tables is very physically demanding.  Servers are on their feet usually for their entire 6 or 8-hour shift, often carrying heavy trays, and are subject to the whims of their employer and the local business climate.
As @pubic_assistance rightly pointed out, masseurs are independent contractors. They set their own hours, rates, standards, and business practices. As for any expenses, those are already baked into the prices they charge their customers. Since most of us pay our masseurs in cash, the likelihood of all, or any, of their payments being reported for tax purposes is remote.

BTC
🤡

Please tell us at least you tip 10% to the waiter!

[boafriend]

I used to tip but I think if the person's rates are super high (like $250+), you really shouldn't feel obligated to tip. They are charging a high rate for a reason, and I'm sure some have calculated/estimated tip into it. Just my take though.

[whatdoidowiththisagain]

6 hours ago, boafriend said:

I used to tip but I think if the person's rates are super high (like $250+), you really shouldn't feel obligated to tip. They are charging a high rate for a reason, and I'm sure some have calculated/estimated tip into it. Just my take though.

$250 is high? i thought that was the normal rate. i'm still new at this and i've only ever hired in florida but that sems to be near the floor (lowest i've ever got quoted was 180) edit: never mind i forgot this thread was about masseurs

Edited April 26 by whatdoidowiththisagain

[arnie]

There is a difference between tipping an independent provider and tipping an employee, like a server in a restaurant or the massage therapist in a Massage Envy.  The provider sets the rates for his services and should set them at a level that he is satisfied with.   If there is a day where he provides an extra service or exceeds the indicated time, then a tip would be in order.  If you are paying $150 or 200 for a massage, he should be satisfied with that.  If not he should charge more, not pay tipping games.  Maybe you should find another therapist if he is not satisfied with you paying his fee.  

[arnie]

On 1/24/2025 at 8:15 AM, SirBillybob said:

I pay one-third to one-half of my income to income tax depending on yearly fluctuations and I assume, perhaps unfairly at times or in unique cases, that the providers I hire do not declare any or most of the cash I give to them. Therefore, after I have drawn from my remaining net income following heavy deductions in order to pay him (them) he (they) get(s) let off with a substantial bonus by keeping earnings under the radar, in spite of signage all over my STI testing go-to clinic that states “sex work is work”. In fact, my income tax goes towards funding services like STI clinics that providers also access with little or no contribution themselves to the public coffers in spite of making bank well above income averages. The concept of gratuities is baked in for this reason along with others referenced upthread.

The tax situations and all the rest of the stuff you quoted is really irrelevant.  You are paying for a service.  What your income/tax situation and what the provider does has no bearing on the provider and if you tip or not. 

[boafriend]

3 hours ago, whatdoidowiththisagain said:

$250 is high? i thought that was the normal rate. i'm still new at this and i've only ever hired in florida but that sems to be near the floor (lowest i've ever got quoted was 180) edit: never mind i forgot this thread was about masseurs

I'm saying anything over $250. Which is kinda high (for the stuff you're soliciting and getting).

[+ Jamie21]

The endless tipping debate. Notice that masseurs / escorts aren’t making much comment, and when they do it’s just to say ‘I’m pleased to get a tip but I don’t expect one’… that kind of thing. We generally don’t get worked up about it. I think it’s a hirer thing. The reasons given in this thread for whether or not clients tip are almost all to do with themselves and their views (often mistaken) on how the business works and not much to do with the actual service provided.

Tipping seems to be more about making the hirer feel good about themselves or setting right inconsistencies or injustices they see in the provider’s pricing or adjusting some power dynamic. That’s fine, tip or don’t tip, up to you, but it really isn’t a big issue for providers. It’s appreciated of course but that’s it. It has no impact on how I set my rates, on what’s included in the session, on how I view the client or on whether I accept a future booking. What does impact those things is how respectful, clean, on time, reliable, regular etc the client is. Not whether he tips. 
 

[Ali Gator]

6 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

The reasons given in this thread for whether or not clients tip are almost all to do with themselves and their views (often mistaken) on how the business works and not much to do with the actual service provided.

How the business works and the actual service provided are not necessarily exclusive of each other in any job one has in the service industry. 'The business' is dependent on 'the services provided' ; otherwise the provider will soon be out of business. It's that simple. 

[Savage D]

I’m very explicit on what I tip for.  Example: I will pay your asked rate with the expectation of massage with happy ending, but I will tip if you provide these additional services….insert service wanted. Sometimes I’ll be exact on how much I’ll tip for certain services.  Kink gets you an extra 500 or something.  If you’ve negotiated what the service is you are paying for than I don’t think you need to tip.

[Ali Gator]

Though I was in the food industry in my much younger days (high school and college) and for a brief stint helping a friend 'hosting' in her restaurant she managed while I was 'between' jobs in 2012-13, I have no ties to it any longer.  However, around 2013, I joined a FB group focused on restaurant servers and their daily trials and tribulations of being a server. 

What I have gathered over the years is this: 

Every single server in every single restaurant is the best server in the world. IF the customer has had a bad experience in the restaurant, it's either the cook's fault, the manager's fault, other customer's fault, or (99% of the time) YOUR fault. It's never, ever the server's fault (they accept no blame at all for your bad experience), yet most customers don't tip them 25% or more. (They have to settle for 18-20% instead, which they find insulting).

Yes, 25% or more is now the standard, according to servers. And for really exceptional service (which they all believe they deliver to every customer during every shift they work) 30 - 35% should be tipped. And this goes for 'take-out' service, too ! The server who grabs the pizza from the pass-through to the counter in front of you ? Yup, 25% minimum for all they've done. 

I must say, it's an entertaining, yet educational, experience being on this page and seeing how the service industry sees the customers.

[Savage D]

Servers are different though due to how they get paid.  Tips are figured into their hourly pay so they often make less than minimum wage, which I find horrifying.  Definitely tip every time, 20% (unless the service was truly bad) Thanks for the 25% norm, I wasn’t aware.

Escorts keep 100% of their asked price as mentioned previously. Plus they are often hiding  this income from the tax man.  I don’t usually like to negotiate with escorts, it’s usually yay or nay to their price.  I do sometimes use tip as incentive for good performance.  For example, if they ask 400/hr, I’ll tell them, I’ll give you 300 plus tip for good performance.  That also helps to weed out the guys that are not interested in providing these additional services best experience for their clients, which is a pass for me.

[+ purplekow]

On 1/24/2025 at 12:00 PM, Bokomaru said:

*If* you feel he deserves a tip but you can’t afford to, the simple solution is wait until you have enough money to tip him. Say you tip 20%. You only have to book him a bit less often and you’ll come out about even. And he’ll be happy to have you as a client. 

$200+40 tip x 4 sessions =$960

$200 + no tip x 5 sessions = $1,000

Not for anything, but the goal of a massage or a visit to an escort is not to make the provider happy, but to make the client happy.  The OP should not be looking to give to the provider, in essence, a raise and at the  same time, to accept a decrease in the service he is receiving.  The provider may increase his rate if he is dissatisfied with his compensation.  This is, after all is said and done, a business transaction.  The provider is getting paid for his service and has set that price.  

A better question might be, what is the provider doing to warrant your return business?  Now that he is more difficult to book is he really worth extra money and extra effort  when he is is less available?  

Tip if you want to do so, but there is no quid pro quo.  Especially if you are on a hiring budget.  

 

When you arrive at a provider's home and they have a $25000 sofa or they drive up to your meeting in a Lamborghini, perhaps adding additional money to your service charge would not be as strong a consideration.  There is a wide held idea that providers are in financial difficulty and in need of your extra dollars.  While that may be true in an individual case, or even in general, it is not always the case and so that urge to give to one who needs it more should not impact whether you tip or not.  

Edited April 27 by purplekow

[+ JamesB]

8 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

The endless tipping debate. Notice that masseurs / escorts aren’t making much comment, and when they do it’s just to say ‘I’m pleased to get a tip but I don’t expect one’… that kind of thing. We generally don’t get worked up about it. I think it’s a hirer thing. The reasons given in this thread for whether or not clients tip are almost all to do with themselves and their views (often mistaken) on how the business works and not much to do with the actual service provided.

Tipping seems to be more about making the hirer feel good about themselves or setting right inconsistencies or injustices they see in the provider’s pricing or adjusting some power dynamic. That’s fine, tip or don’t tip, up to you, but it really isn’t a big issue for providers. It’s appreciated of course but that’s it. It has no impact on how I set my rates, on what’s included in the session, on how I view the client or on whether I accept a future booking. What does impact those things is how respectful, clean, on time, reliable, regular etc the client is. Not whether he tips. 
 

 

While I usually agree with you, it’s important to understand that tipping culture in the US is very different from the UK and from much of the rest of the world, for that matter. Here, tipping has become expected almost everywhere and for nearly everything. You can even go to a grab-and-go kiosk with a self-checkout, only to be presented with a screen asking for a tip. In my opinion, it’s gotten completely out of hand.

[NipLuvr212]

Very simply stated:

I had a 4 handed session with two guys. It was good. I paid the rate. One of them says to me "where's the tip?"

I left and never came back.

[+ Jamie21]

2 hours ago, Ali Gator said:

How the business works and the actual service provided are not necessarily exclusive of each other in any job one has in the service industry. 'The business' is dependent on 'the services provided' ; otherwise the provider will soon be out of business. It's that simple. 

I was referring to misconceptions about the costs independent masseurs have. Guys assume that because I charge say £150 for an hour then I’m on £1200 a day, £250k a year, and use that as justification for not tipping. That I have zero costs (no advertising costs, no supplies costs, no accommodation costs, no healthcare costs). That’s the misconception about how the business works. 

[jazeboy]

On 1/24/2025 at 10:54 AM, Oakman said:

don’t pollute your joy with unnecessary guilt.

My reply is unrelated to this thread ... but I just wanted to say that this is some of the most awesome advice I've heard in a long time ... and the timing happens to be great ... THANKS!!

[Bokomaru]

3 hours ago, purplekow said:

Not for anything, but the goal of a massage or a visit to an escort is not to make the provider happy, but to make the client happy

True. But my strong preference is that it be a win-win situation. When we both leave happy, that’s a successful encounter, to me.