What caused the decay of San Francisco?

[socurious]

Even the gay life in San Francisco died down compared to what it used to be in the past. Nowadays we have the drug addiction problem and the massive amount of homelessness eating up the city. It sucks because the place is gorgeous and full of history. What it always like this? 

[socurious]

Why do Americans do so much drugs btw.? Europe doesn't seem to have the same issue (at the same levels at least?).

[Guest]

When I was a young adult, if I wanted to have sex, I'd have to go to gay bars/clubs (or bathhouses if I was less particular, which was seldom), or there were personal ads. Nowadays if people want to hook up, there's no need for that since people use Grindr. So a lot of gay venues have closed down. I'm not sure about other states, but certainly in California there was a big push to close down residential mental health facilities, and all of those people were pushed into the streets. The sentiment that the mentally ill are better off in the streets became popular in large measure due to the 1975 movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Rather than reform the system, places where schizophrenics were care for were closed down. It also appeared to be less expensive, although homelessness leads to a whole other set of problems, including fires. 

In Europe, the mentally ill (and drug addicts) are more likely to receive treatment. In the US, the mentally ill are essentially left to fend for themselves. They only receive attention if they do something violent, in which case they may get briefly held by the law until found not guilty by reason of insanity--or get shot if they're really threatening. 

[pubic_assistance]

10 hours ago, socurious said:

Europe doesn't seem to have the same issue (at the same levels at least?).

"Europe" is a big place. Try using a public toilet in Ireland. You'll be stepping over hypodermic needles from the heroin addicts. In other countries, yes there are more outreach programs that limit the visibility of the problem but don't make the problem go away.

Most of what you SEE is a problem with our response (or lack,thereof) in dealing with mental illness. We used to institutionalize, then tossed them into the streets in the 80's after that was considered unjust. Then most of them got arrested and held in jail long past the normal judgement for the crime. Now Progressive cultural theory is "curing" that injustice by once again releasing the victim but spiraling back to the same problem with seriously mentally ill people wandering the streets ( until the end up back in jail again ). It's a real mess. And it's mostly about money. No civil authority wants to committ the money to caring for these people who have little ability to care for themselves.

[maninsoma]

I think any serious discussion of the "whys" is political, and I assume the political message board got eliminated for a reason so I will avoid venturing into that territory.

As someone who has lived in San Francisco since the mid 1980s, I can say that this decay has been going on for quite a long time but really escalated due to the pandemic.  San Francisco has not really recovered from the lock-downs the way other U.S. cities have.  Downtown is still a shell of its former self.  A lot of businesses throughout the city shuttered and nothing has opened to replace them.  A lot of productive people left (census says 7% population loss between 2020 and 2022), but from appearances the homeless population did not decrease during that time but rather increased.  So the percentage of mentally ill and drug addled individuals roaming the streets versus people who are able to take care of themselves properly has changed, making the challenges associated with homelessness even more visible.  There is also seemingly no longer any effort to abate graffiti, so just moving around the city you get the sense that it's falling apart and no one cares.

I honestly don't think it's a problem of money spent on services or that services aren't available.  San Francisco spends a lot of money to serve people with mental illness and/or drug addiction, or simply to help house people who are homeless without those issues. 

I won't blame this all on the pandemic, though, since I started feeling alarmed about the downturn here before 2020.  For a number of years I walked to a gym in the middle of the night to work out.  I cannot recall exactly which year it was, but several years ago I just stopped feeling safe walking by myself at 4:00 a.m.  Before that, I would typically encounter no one on my walk or maybe I'd see a trash collector.  But I started encountering a lot more people on my walks, and some of them were obviously potentially dangerous (screaming at the top of their lungs, using some object to take their rage out on various objects in their vicinity) and others who simply gave me an uneasy feeling (like someone sizing me up to see if I was a good candidate for a mugging).  I decided to start using the much less well equipped gym in my condo complex than continue to risk walking alone in the middle of the night.

[+ Pensant]

On 4/29/2023 at 8:27 AM, maninsoma said:

I honestly don't think it's a problem of money spent on services or that services aren't available.  San Francisco spends a lot of money to serve people with mental illness and/or drug addiction, or simply to help house people who are homeless without those issues. 

I agree. In fact, some of the jurisdictions that spend the most per capita often have among the poorest outcomes, including public education. It doesn’t appear that countless attempts have borne much fruit. I don’t know what the solutions are, but sometimes I feel that some societal ills may be intractable. As a country we seem willing to ignore the signs of chronic breakdown. 

[+ azdr0710]

SF has been a very liberal, tolerant, very mixed, live-and-let-live city since Gold Rush days.......the tradition continues....... 

[pubic_assistance]

On 4/29/2023 at 9:27 AM, maninsoma said:

I think any serious discussion of the "whys" is political, and I assume the political message board got eliminated for a reason so I will avoid venturing into that territory.

I think you can avoid politics by simply realizing it's about MONEY . Nobody in either political party wants to spend the money to deal with  with mental illness( and serious drug addictions.)

The rest is nothing but lip service.

 

[Sammy]

Crime has also increased in SF, at least according to those who still live there. Would you agree maninsoma? Since parking is limited, many have to park their car on the open street (who have them anyway) which is ripe for pilfering. If you’re just using a phone while walking on the street or on public transit you are a target. There have been videos on social media of tourists getting their luggage stolen in broad daylight. Group robberies at conveniences & retail stores have gone viral, and I’ve seen some petty theft occur right in front of me by some bold young men at the Walgreens in Castro. They ran out & got away with it. Add to that the homeless/mental/drug epidemic, and working remote as the new norm, the City isn’t what it used to be. With the recent change of the City’s DA, and the governor offering a state of emergency aid to the Mayor, there is some hope things might start to turn around for the better….

It’s not all bad, I still like to visit SF periodically, and some great food spots, entertainment, museums, and coastal sites to see. Some good points raised in another thread as well:

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Sammy

[maninsoma]

There are still some great things about San Francisco, but I can honestly say that if it was in its current state when I first visited here I definitely would not have fallen in love with the place and wanted to move here.  In fact, I feel trapped here for a variety of reasons I don't want to go into.  I hope things turn around, but I don't know what it's going to take for that to happen. 

[FrancisCA]

As for someone who did the more recent 8 years in SF the city is never really recovered from 2020. While I was living there pre-2020 rent was the highest in the country, tech was taking over, and the city was full of people trying to make a living and we always talked about when the tech bubble was going to burst and it looks like it finally did. I live in LA and vistied NY and London and those cities have been steadily recovering unlike SF.

People are tired of paying that rent, tons of people work from home and millenials and gen z dont want to work 9-5 M-F schedules.

I still visit SF a lot because my "normal" job brings me back but this month will be my last planned visit to SF hopefully when im back in a year or so things will have settled out.

[Rudynate]

On 4/30/2023 at 9:29 AM, azdr0710 said:

SF has been a very liberal, tolerant, very mixed, live-and-let-live city since Gold Rush days.......the tradition continues....... 

The first time I visited San Francisco in 1974, parts of it seemed seedy to me, but it was a charming seedy, sort of like NOLA.  San Francisco has seen better days, but its ability to reinvent itself seems boundless. Many of the tech employees who left are supposed to be returning, partly because their employers are making them come back and partly because they just miss it, even with the outrageous housing cost.  They’re positive signs here and there.  The homeless count is down about 3%. I live in the Sunset district.  One of the main streets, Noriega street is looking better than ever-lots of new businesses and more pedestrian traffic than I have seen 17 years I have lived here.  The other main retail district, Irving street, really needs help-dirty sidewalks, lots of empty storefronts.  They’re talking about regular block parties to bring it back to life.  I, for one, haven’t given up on  San  Francisco.  Once this town gets in your blood, it’s there to stay.

[SFGateboy]

As someone who used to live in SoMa, I had always thought that the City, and that neighborhood in particular, was constantly on the cusp of a renaissance. I missed what some might call the glory(hole?) days of SoMa when all the leather bars and sex clubs were in full swing, but when Twitter moved into mid-Market, and then a bunch of other tech companies followed suit, I thought it was a decent alternative--at least there was more going on in terms of restaurants, coffee shots, etc. I think we all know what happens next, and I'll admit I've lost quite a bit of that optimism.

[marylander1940]

On 4/28/2023 at 6:34 PM, socurious said:

Why do Americans do so much drugs btw.? Europe doesn't seem to have the same issue (at the same levels at least?).

for the same reasons we have other problems like gun violence, alcoholism, a culture of rape in our colleges linked to alcohol, obesity, etc. lack of self-control and individual responsibility!

Even a preventable disease like HIV was out of control here for decades while in Europe gay men simply used condoms ALL the time. 

This is also a country full of opportunities and an overwhelming majority of immigrants love it, unfortunately some locals think USA is not a dream but a nightmare. Go figure!

[marylander1940]

On 5/1/2023 at 10:45 AM, pubic_assistance said:

I think you can avoid politics by simply realizing it's about MONEY . Nobody in either political party wants to spend the money to deal with  with mental illness( and serious drug addictions.)

The rest is nothing but lip service.

 

The Homeless Industrial Complex thrives with taxpayers' money. 

Considering SO much money California gives to other poor states in the conservative areas of the country some should be redirected to solve this issue. 

1. Make it illegal for a person to live n the streets. 
2. Lock them up in a Travelodge or other affordable hotel in central California or somewhere where money goes far!
3. Treat their addiction.
4. Keep them locked up, no crazy person should be on the streets they will end up getting hurt, going to the ER, trespassing, causing taxpayers even more money.  

Edited May 7, 2023 by marylander1940

[pubic_assistance]

1 hour ago, marylander1940 said:

Keep them locked up, no crazy person should be on the streets they will end up getting hurt, going to the ER, trespassing, causing taxpayers even more money.  

They were locked up. And most were well cared for for many many years. Now there are huge facilities sitting mostly empty since the 1980s. Still waiting for someone to finally come to the conclusion that allowing mentally ill people to have the same rights to self determination as everyone else is dangerous for them and dangerous for everyone else.

[marylander1940]

14 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

They were locked up. And most were well cared for for many many years. Now there are huge facilities sitting mostly empty since the 1980s. Still waiting for someone to finally come to the conclusion that allowing mentally ill people to have the same rights to self determination as everyone else is dangerous for them and dangerous for everyone else.

and at the same time providing them with food and services in order to extend their agony and not just treating them... 

Edited May 7, 2023 by marylander1940

[SouthOfTheBorder]

4 hours ago, marylander1940 said:

unfortunately some locals think USA is not a dream but a nightmare.

Not sure I’d go so far to say “nightmare”, but absolutely headed in the wrong direction.

this is not a comment cloaked to support partisan talking point:  the US is the only “wealthy” country where life expectancy is falling. Or, going backwards.  Yet, we spend more on healthcare as a percent of GDP than anywhere else.  That pretty much says it all.

Rampant homelessness is yet another marker of a country in decline & it didn’t happen overnight.  Gun violence is similarly out-of-control and where the US is an outlier among its peer countries.  

It’s not a failure of one political party, but rather a slow motion collapse of a deeply corrupt system of government where everything and everyone is for sale.  Otherwise known as late-stage capitalism.  Ain’t it great ?

[marylander1940]

28 minutes ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

Not sure I’d go so far to say “nightmare”, but absolutely headed in the wrong direction.

this is not a comment cloaked to support partisan talking point:  the US is the only “wealthy” country where life expectancy is falling. Or, going backwards.  Yet, we spend more on healthcare as a percent of GDP than anywhere else.  That pretty much says it all.

Rampant homelessness is yet another marker of a country in decline & it didn’t happen overnight.  Gun violence is similarly out-of-control and where the US is an outlier among its peer countries.  

It’s not a failure of one political party, but rather a slow motion collapse of a deeply corrupt system of government where everything and everyone is for sale.  Otherwise known as late-stage capitalism.  Ain’t it great ?

homelessness happens because of a political decision to let folks who should be in an asylum free on the streets. 

Capitalism is not perfect but there's no better choice and has created the middle class and the opportunities that has attracted so many folks to our country. 

Obesity is an even deadlier issue than gun violence, I was in San Francisco precisely a few weeks ago and I was able to tell if a family of tourist was European or American based on their obesity or lack of it. 

[EZEtoGRU]

5 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

They were locked up. And most were well cared for for many many years. Now there are huge facilities sitting mostly empty since the 1980s. Still waiting for someone to finally come to the conclusion that allowing mentally ill people to have the same rights to self determination as everyone else is dangerous for them and dangerous for everyone else.

I agree with most of your post, but I do question the part I bolded.  I'm not sure how well the mentally ill were cared for when asylums were still in existence throughout the US.  There are plenty of nightmare stories from those days.  

It's a very complicated issue (what to do with the mentally ill).  I don't have a solution...but I do know that allowing the mentally ill to just roam the streets unsupervised is not the answer.   

[pubic_assistance]

8 hours ago, EZEtoGRU said:

There are plenty of nightmare stories from those days.  

The situation was over exaggerated by the media. There were far more well-run facilities than there were "nightmares". This was an example of "throwing the baby out with the bath water". 

You didn't need to dismantle the entire system to fix the few outliers 

[+ Pensant]

A few, like Byberry State Hospital and Pennhurst, in the Philly area, were nightmarish; but I agree that the mass closures played a large part.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Pensant

[+ Pensant]

13 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

Not sure I’d go so far to say “nightmare”, but absolutely headed in the wrong direction.

this is not a comment cloaked to support partisan talking point:  the US is the only “wealthy” country where life expectancy is falling. Or, going backwards.  Yet, we spend more on healthcare as a percent of GDP than anywhere else.  That pretty much says it all.

Rampant homelessness is yet another marker of a country in decline & it didn’t happen overnight.  Gun violence is similarly out-of-control and where the US is an outlier among its peer countries.  

It’s not a failure of one political party, but rather a slow motion collapse of a deeply corrupt system of government where everything and everyone is for sale.  Otherwise known as late-stage capitalism.  Ain’t it great ?

Many years again I read an outstanding book called Seven Tomorrows, describing seven possible American futures. It appears we’ve now entered the Chronic Breakdown stage. https://www.amazon.com/Seven-Tomorrows-Paul-Hawken/dp/055301367X

[+ Pensant]

12 hours ago, marylander1940 said:

Capitalism is not perfect but there's no better choice and has created the middle class and the opportunities that has attracted so many folks to our country. 

Indisputably true; however we’ve now entered the era of “grasping” capitalism and plutocracy. For example, the destruction of regional banking to the benefit of the mega-banks. Rent-seeking and crony capitalism are the norm now.

[pubic_assistance]

1 hour ago, Pensant said:

Indisputably true; however we’ve now entered the era of “grasping” capitalism and plutocracy. For example, the destruction of regional banking to the benefit of the mega-banks. Rent-seeking and crony capitalism are the norm now.

I keep saying it's the return of the aristocracy.

While they get us fighting over social issues, ultra-rich Globalists are taking ownership of half the world.

The billionaire class is growing while the middle class is struggling to pay their bills.

We are fast returning to the Middle Ages and indentured servitude.