What caused the decay of San Francisco?

[marylander1940]

7 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

The situation was over exaggerated by the media. There were far more well-run facilities than there were "nightmares". This was an example of "throwing the baby out with the bath water". 

You didn't need to dismantle the entire system to fix the few outliers 

There was plenty of abuse and sometimes employees would pimp female patients. A scene of "Kill bill" was inspired by so many accusations. The Jim Jordans of the time didn't see nothing...

One more time they should be locked up and treated properly, hopefully some will recover and become productive members of the society. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by marylander1940

[BSR]

On 4/29/2023 at 5:02 AM, pubic_assistance said:

And it's mostly about money. No civil authority wants to committ the money to caring for these people who have little ability to care for themselves.

Does it cost that much more to keep a person in a mental health facility vs. prison?

[pubic_assistance]

12 hours ago, BSR said:

Does it cost that much more to keep a person in a mental health facility vs. prison?

It does because the mental hospitals were staffed by doctors and nurses who are paid more than prison guards.

Primarily, the cost of running separate facilities was the more likely consideration.

The whole legal argument was over the idea that you can't "imprison" someone who hasn't comitted a crime ( a reasonable argument to be made). But eventually these people would get arrested for some small crime and some would commit crimes of violence. This was all at a time when private companies were profiting from the growth of prison populations. They were expanding jail cells to house the incarceration of mentally ill and the "three strikes and you're out" policy toward marijuana sales that saw thousands of black teenagers thrown behind bars for the mere sale of a "dime bag".

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by pubic_assistance
grammar

[Rudynate]

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

It does because the mental hospitals were staffed by doctors and nurses who are paid more than prison guards.

 

 

That might be an oversimplification.  I am only guessing, but I suspect that the ratio of nurses/doctors caring for the mentally ill to patients is quite a bit lower than the ratio of prison guards to prisoners.  Also, much of the inpatient care of the mentally ill is delivered by low-paid non-professionals and/or paraprofessionals.

 

I had a bizarre experience at the Rochester State Hospital.  In 11th grade, I had a mad crush on my English teacher. I used to sit in class with a boner for the entire period I was so gone on him.  Many years later, I went to a 12-step meeting at the Rochester State Hospital and my 11the grade English teacher was there.  He appeared to be an inpatient.  I knew the staff couldn't violate his confidentiality by confirming that he was a patient so instead I asked if he was a staff member and they told me no.

[pubic_assistance]

53 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

That might be an oversimplification. 

It would be when you take one sentence out of context to the whole comment.

 

[EZEtoGRU]

On 5/8/2023 at 7:24 AM, pubic_assistance said:

The situation was over exaggerated by the media. There were far more well-run facilities than there were "nightmares".  

You simply don’t know that to be the case. You may believe it to be true but making a blanket definitive statement like the above doesn’t fly. 
 

Look… we agree there is a real homeless/mental health problem in the US that is unsustainable as it is.  Developing a long-term fix that improves things for all concerned is the challenge. 
 

In my view, one of government’s roles is to provide support for those most vulnerable in our society.  That includes the very young, the elderly, and the infirmed (mental & physical).  We need to do a much better job supporting the mentally infirmed. 

[pubic_assistance]

1 minute ago, EZEtoGRU said:

You simply don’t know that to be the case.

Actually I do.

Its was the topic of my Junior debate championship in High School.

[Rudynate]

28 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

It would be when you take one sentence out of context to the whole comment.

 

But that's your lead-in and your major point. 

[pubic_assistance]

1 minute ago, Rudynate said:

But that's your lead-in and your major point. 

No. Read again.

I said: Primarily, the cost of running separate facilities was the more likely consideration.

[+ tassojunior]

On 5/8/2023 at 10:22 AM, pubic_assistance said:

I keep saying it's the return of the aristocracy.

While they get us fighting over social issues, ultra-rich Globalists are taking ownership of half the world.

The billionaire class is growing while the middle class is struggling to pay their bills.

We are fast returning to the Middle Ages and indentured servitude.

The 5% bougie class's kids are on a roll. When I was young a family had 2 kids to leave maybe $100K to. Now couples have 1 child and the 5% have a couple million minimum  to leave to them. I think it's the norm now for even the 10% to have $1million for their child by 25. Around me every new owner is 27ish and their parents pay $2M cash for their house. Of course they have no intention of demeaning their life experiences by "working". There have been other broken societies where the 5 or 10% become dilettantes and worthless baggage instead of being the managerial and professional class as is their station. But the larger ownership class is in a recession now and their places will be taken by industrious and smart immigrants and 1st generation citizens from mostly Asian tech countries. And to the ruling class America is simply a geographic place of residence for worker bees enriching the world hive. 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

1 minute ago, tassojunior said:

The 5% bougie class's kids are on a roll. When I was young a family had 2 kids to leave maybe $100K to. Now couples have 1 child and the 5% have a couple million minimum  to leave to them. I think it's the norm now for even the 10% to have $1million for their child by 25. Around me every new owner is 27ish and their parents pay $2M cash for their house. Of course they have no intention of demeaning their life experiences by "working". There have been other broken societies where the 5 or 10% become dilettantes and worthless baggage instead of being the managerial and professional class as is their station. But the larger ownership class is in a recession now and their places will be taken by industrious and smart immigrants and 1st generation citizens from mostly Asian tech countries. And to the ruling class America is simply a geographic place of residence for worker bees enriching the world hive. 

That's an interesting perspective on what caused the decay of San Francisco.  I would agree that any society where people don't have an incentive to work or invest is doomed.

[+ tassojunior]

specifically on San Francisco, I remember fondly when I turned 18 and started spending weekends in the City as I was at UC Santa Cruz and there was a free bus up ("to use the library" at Berkeley lol). Most of my weekends were spent staying at the Embarcadero YMCA, which was basically a 7-story 24-hour orgy them. Concerts at the Fillmore by Hendricks, Janice Joplin and the Jefferson Airplane were weekly and it seemed every good-looking guy in the US was either staying at the Embarcadero or cruising the tenderloin and Folsom Street. I go back now, about yearly, and it's a whole new set of very boring people. Half tourists, half tech, with ignored vagrants everywhere. Of course, DC's no better now.

Edited May 9, 2023 by tassojunior

[Decatur Guy]

In regards to the homeless situation, I'd venture a guess that San Francisco's relatively mild climate also plays a role in attracting and keeping homeless people. I'd much rather take my chances on the streets of San Francisco than Minneapolis in winter or Phoenix in summer, for instance. If I had bus ticket and could go anywhere, I'd head for the mildest climate possible. 


And it's not just SF's problem. Homelessness started getting worse in Atlanta in 2017 and then really steepened with the pandemic. It's not really eased up, either. 

Murders and shootings also saw a huge jump here (the homeless are not to blame for that, however). It's also a fact that many rural counties put their homeless on a bus straight for the Greyhound station in downtown ATL and then complain about the city.

Finally, every-escalating rents and affordable housing shortages are pushing more and more people into homelessness. 

In the end, I blame the naked greed of the ultrawealthy. They are raping the rest of us financially, and I don't use that term lightly. SF might be getting some of the worst of it, but this is a problem across the country.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Decatur Guy

[Guest]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

Actually I do.

Its was the topic of my Junior debate championship in High School.

[pubic_assistance]

1 minute ago, Unicorn said:

What don't you understand ?

I did a lot of research on the subject because it was the topic of our junior debate championship.

It was about ten years after the mental institutions has released thousands of people and a huge majority of them had landed in jail.

[Rudynate]

24 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

What don't you understand ?

I did a lot of research on the subject because it was the topic of our junior debate championship.

It was about ten years after the mental institutions has released thousands of people and a huge majority of them had landed in jail.

Maybe, as I was, he is a little dumbfounded that you think  "a lot of research" done ~40 years ago as a high-school student qualifies you as an authority on the topic now.  If it was a master's thesis or a doctoral dissertation you were relying on,  you might be on firmer ground.  I'm sure, however, that it was an excellent piece of work for a high-school student.

[EZEtoGRU]

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

Actually I do.

Its was the topic of my Junior debate championship in High School.

It’s really true cuz I read about it in High School dammit!!! ROTFL😂😂😂. 

[pubic_assistance]

19 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

Maybe, as I was, he is a little dumbfounded that you think  "a lot of research" done ~40 years ago as a high-school student qualifies you as an authority on the topic now.  If it was a master's thesis or a doctoral dissertation you were relying on,  you might be on firmer ground.  I'm sure, however, that it was an excellent piece of work for a high-school student.

I am confused by this statement. I didn't claim to BE "an expert". I claimed to be informed and knowledgeable on the subject. Which I am.

Did the facts change over the last 40 years ?  No they did not.  The institutions closed 40 years ago...so the reports on the quality of life in each is the same as it was 40 years ago. You can't investigate any further than what was done.

As far as my being a high school student....what makes you assume that I was too dumb to do quality research ?

My statement stands: The media exaggerated the point about a few outlier institutions that had lost their standards. For the most part, the mental institutions in the United States provided a decent quality of life for thousands of people with serious mental problems. FAR better than the mere food and housing they ended up with in prison. 

 

[Rudynate]

You undermined yourself by having to reach all the way back to high school as authority for what you  stated . Think Sara Palin :  "Oh, I read  . . . them all."

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

2 hours ago, Decatur Guy said:

In regards to the homeless situation, I'd venture a guess that San Francisco's relatively mild climate also plays a role in attracting and keeping homeless people. I'd much rather take my chances on the streets of San Francisco than Minneapolis in winter or Phoenix in summer, for instance. If I had bus ticket and could go anywhere, I'd head for the mildest climate possible. 


And it's not just SF's problem. Homelessness started getting worse in Atlanta in 2017 and then really steepened with the pandemic. It's not really eased up, either. 

Murders and shootings also saw a huge jump here (the homeless are not to blame for that, however). It's also a fact that many rural counties put their homeless on a bus straight for the Greyhound station in downtown ATL and then complain about the city.

Finally, every-escalating rents and affordable housing shortages are pushing more and more people into homelessness. 

In the end, I blame the naked greed of the ultrawealthy. They are raping the rest of us financially, and I don't use that term lightly. SF might be getting some of the worst of it, but this is a problem across the country.

I don't think we can blame San Francisco's decay on the ultra-wealthy, unless you mean to say the city is in decline because the ultra-wealthy are leaving.

[pubic_assistance]

2 hours ago, Rudynate said:

You undermined yourself by having to reach all the way back to high school as authority for what you  stated . Think Sara Palin :  "Oh, I read  . . . them all."

Like I said.

The information about the subject was the same 40 years ago, as it was today.

There was a scandal in the media over the investigation of a few institutions that had truly become awful, abusive and derelict. It wasn't all of them or even many of them.

My statement which remains true no matter how old I was when I did the research was that MOST of the mental institutions took good care of the patients. That's all. I don't need to be a PhD to find those facts. They were readily available by the late 1980s.

My opinion is that Governments took advantage of the political climate and were happy to give mentally ill patients their "rights to self determination" because it was far cheaper than housing them, medicating them and feeding them. Sadly most ended up in jail where they were NOT cared for properly. Only fed and housed.

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by pubic_assistance
grammar

[Rudynate]

42 minutes ago, Vegas777 said:

I don't think we can blame San Francisco's decay on the ultra-wealthy, unless you mean to say the city is in decline because the ultra-wealthy are leaving.

I think things have actually been worse.  I'm positive that I remember reading that, during Frank Jordan's term, the homeless population had reached 10K.  I haven't been able to locate that statisitic though.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

What don't you understand ?

I did a lot of research on the subject because it was the topic of our junior debate championship...

How old are you? 19?

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

...My opinion is that Governments took advantage of the political climate and were happy to give mentally ill patients their "rights to self determination" because it was far cheaper than housing them, medicating them and feeding them...

Well, I certainly agree with you here.

[pubic_assistance]

5 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

How old are you? 19?

The release of the mentally ill was 1980.

The debate was 1988. I was 17 in 1988. It had been eight years since they opened the institutions. The majority of patients had left and many of them ended up in jail. So the subject of the debate was precisely about the fall out of the Civil Rights decision that allowed mentally ill people to "self determine".

Again....the issue has nothing to do with my age. Facts are facts no matter how old I was when I researched the subject. The facts also have not changed over 40 years.