What caused the decay of San Francisco?

[nate_sf]

6 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Another crazy thing I read a month ago, I believe in the Los Angeles Times, is that there's a plan in place in SF to possibly pay EACH black San Franciscan millions in "slave reparations."

I believe you are confusing this with the California Reparations Task Force. That is a state initiative, not a SF initiative. As Cal Matters reports, the state Legislature and Gov. Gavin Newsom will decide on reparations, and it’s unclear what they will do with the task force report. The task force report has been controversial, to say the least.

[marylander1940]

48 minutes ago, Monarchy79 said:

I’m glad you made this point. 
Once major cities lose its downtown retail, the city starts to decay from its nucleus. 
 

 

Right on!

It's like the Tendernob (Tenderloin and Nob Hill) are taking over downtown, when the idea was for that neighborhood to be gentrified! 

Here in DC the opposite happened and many of us took the chance of a lifetime to create generation wealth! 

[marylander1940]

35 minutes ago, nate_sf said:

But

As for the suggestion that the city is planning to place homeless in dormitories in the vacant stores, I have not heard that. I follow this stuff pretty closely and I'd be surprised if that was true, but by all means correct me if you can cite the source.

A local escort who happens to be a libertarian told me that, I would appreciate by PM or on here, any information you have to demonstrate is nothing but a myth. 

Edited June 3, 2023 by marylander1940

[mike carey]

7 hours ago, marylander1940 said:

A local escort who happens to be a libertarian told me that, I would appreciate by PM or on here, any information you have to demonstrate is nothing but a myth.

The way there is likely to be evidence that it is not happening is if the authorities had considered it and rejected it. If it's just a rumour that 'someone heard' and passed on there won't be contrary evidence. The burden of proof is on those claiming that something is happening.

[marylander1940]

 

NIMBY, Canadian version!

 

 

[maninsoma]

There is, in fact, a reparations task force in San Francisco and I think they have issued a report calling for all black residents to get a $5 million payout.  That doesn't mean that anything like that will happen, but that was their suggestion.  I found the figure to be very strange, since the vast majority of working people wouldn't even earn that much in their entire lives nor would they inherit assets worth that much. 

African American Reparations Advisory Committee | San Francisco

SF.GOV

---

A committee that develops recommendations for repairing harm in our Black communities.

I would not be surprised if the City isn't looking to convert former business space into housing.  Near me they took over some parking lots and put trailers and tents there and, while they are supposed to be transitional spaces like other shelters, I just read an article that the City is trying to make some of these spaces permanent housing.  I've also read about other buildings where the City has proposed converting office space into housing for the homeless.

I'll make no other comments because I don't want to veer into politics.

[+ Lucky]

California has already spent 17 billion on the homeless and it solved nothing.

[pubic_assistance]

13 minutes ago, Lucky said:

California has already spent 17 billion on the homeless and it solved nothing.

Historically if you watch how these monies are spent, there is VERY VERY little useful product generated from "homeless outreach funding". It's a good guess therefore that there is VERY heavy skimming from that cookie jar.

Charity is all too often an easy smoke screen for theft. Claim you are doing "good things" for the disadvantaged and the call for an audit is always disregarded as an insult.

Sadly, the poor have no voice to report the lack of help from reportedly well funded organizations. So this goes on year after year.

[nate_sf]

3 hours ago, maninsoma said:

There is, in fact, a reparations task force in San Francisco and I think they have issued a report calling for all black residents to get a $5 million payout.  That doesn't mean that anything like that will happen, but that was their suggestion.  I found the figure to be very strange, since the vast majority of working people wouldn't even earn that much in their entire lives nor would they inherit assets worth that much. 

African American Reparations Advisory Committee | San Francisco

SF.GOV

---

A committee that develops recommendations for repairing harm in our Black communities.

I would not be surprised if the City isn't looking to convert former business space into housing.  Near me they took over some parking lots and put trailers and tents there and, while they are supposed to be transitional spaces like other shelters, I just read an article that the City is trying to make some of these spaces permanent housing.  I've also read about other buildings where the City has proposed converting office space into housing for the homeless.

I'll make no other comments because I don't want to veer into politics.

Thanks, I was not aware of the SF reparations task force, I'd only heard about the state one. I'm guessing the formula is similar to the one that the state's task force came up with, but that's just a guess. And you're right, it's political so will end that part of the discussion here.

[nate_sf]

1 hour ago, Lucky said:

California has already spent 17 billion on the homeless and it solved nothing.

A friend of mine who works in SF government was assigned to a homeless task force team for 6 months as part of a rotation from her usual position. She told me the process of assigning people to available low-income units is unbelievably slow and cumbersome, and the result is that units sit vacant for months at a time while people remain homeless. There is a complicated pecking order and an involved process that I'm sure is well-intended and meant to be accountable, but is clearly ineffective. Now of course this is me quoting hearsay so take it for what it's worth!

[nate_sf]

I believe the conversions to housing are focused on converting upper floor offices to housing, at least from this summary on the SF gov website. I'm hopeful but skeptical, as converting an old office building to housing is not easy or inexpensive, but at least it's a barrier removed.

Meanwhile ground floors will be allowed to have a wider range of commercial uses. SF's zoning is notoriously complicated and unfriendly to business, dating from an era where cities tried to micromanage the mix of businesses through zoning. SF has not been alone in having done this, but in combination with unrealistic rents it creates a bunch of long-term vacant storefronts all over the city. The Castro suffers from this as well... a long-standing bias against chain stores and restaurants, combined with rents that are not viable for the independent small businesses that are intended to be attracted. That's all well and fine when the economy is good, but doesn't work when things aren't good or where there are structural changes to retail that make those old rules obsolete. So I'm glad the city government is taking action on this, at least in downtown, but it will take some time for things to sort out.

[marylander1940]

2 hours ago, Lucky said:

California has already spent 17 billion on the homeless and it solved nothing.

The Homeless Industrial Complex is as profitable as ever! 

 

51 minutes ago, nate_sf said:

A friend of mine who works in SF government was assigned to a homeless task force team for 6 months as part of a rotation from her usual position. She told me the process of assigning people to available low-income units is unbelievably slow and cumbersome, and the result is that units sit vacant for months at a time while people remain homeless. There is a complicated pecking order and an involved process that I'm sure is well-intended and meant to be accountable, but is clearly ineffective. Now of course this is me quoting hearsay so take it for what it's worth!

A private company (for profit) would do a better job of assigning houses to homeless folks who need them! 

[pubic_assistance]

1 hour ago, marylander1940 said:

The Homeless Industrial Complex is as profitable as ever!

[SouthOfTheBorder]

the homeless industrial complex does indeed use private contractors with sky-high costs for property acquisition, exorbitant legal costs (everyone fights it - nimby), insane requirements to build, impossible permitting, scarce labor, etc.  The list goes on and all adds to final price-tag.

In 2022, costs approaching $600,000 in California for each new housing unit designed for homeless people.

No easy solutions for this long festering problem. Other rich counties do not have this same problem - why only here ?

Column: Spending $800,000 for a single unit of homeless housing is a red flag for L.A.

WWW.LATIMES.COM

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Spending $800,000 for a single unit of homeless housing? L.A. has to do better

 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

36 minutes ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

the homeless industrial complex does indeed use private contractors with sky-high costs for property acquisition, exorbitant legal costs (everyone fights it - nimby), insane requirements to build, impossible permitting, scarce labor, etc.  The list goes on and all adds to final price-tag.

In 2022, costs approaching $600,000 in California for each new housing unit designed for homeless people.

No easy solutions for this long festering problem. Other rich counties do not have this same problem - why only here ?

Column: Spending $800,000 for a single unit of homeless housing is a red flag for L.A.

WWW.LATIMES.COM

---

Spending $800,000 for a single unit of homeless housing? L.A. has to do better

 

As you point out, there are nearly as many hurdles to develop government subsidized housing as there are for a private citizen to build a house or operate a business in that state.  That is one reason the native-born housed/working population of California has been in decline, as those who can afford to move away do so to locations with fewer government restrictions that apply to operating a business or raising a family.

I used to live in California.  I moved to Nevada partly because in my line of work every project in California was bogged down with environmental assessments and lawsuits.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Vegas_Millennial

[marylander1940]

1 hour ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

the homeless industrial complex does indeed use private contractors with sky-high costs for property acquisition, exorbitant legal costs (everyone fights it - nimby), insane requirements to build, impossible permitting, scarce labor, etc.  The list goes on and all adds to final price-tag.

In 2022, costs approaching $600,000 in California for each new housing unit designed for homeless people.

No easy solutions for this long festering problem. Other rich counties do not have this same problem - why only here ?

Column: Spending $800,000 for a single unit of homeless housing is a red flag for L.A.

WWW.LATIMES.COM

---

Spending $800,000 for a single unit of homeless housing? L.A. has to do better

 

That's no affordable housing at all!

 

They should be placed in a Travelodge or a hotel like that in an affordable part of the country where jobs are needed so they can be treated.

We're Americans we should think outside the box: transcontinental railroad, Panama canal, space race, plenty of technological inventions and scientific discoveries, etc. 

 

[Guest]

On 6/2/2023 at 2:37 PM, Vegas_Millennial said:

I agree with you 💯.  Unfortunately, the 9th circuit does not ☹️.

What does the 9th Circuit have to do with this (other than that its headquarters is in SF)?

[pubic_assistance]

5 hours ago, marylander1940 said:

We're Americans we should think outside the box: transcontinental railroad, Panama canal, space race, plenty of technological inventions and scientific discoveries, etc. 

A large majority of these so-called "homeless" are drug addicts and mentally ill.  You can provide them with a home but they won't be able to keep it. They will destroy it and be out in the street within the year. It happens all the time. Its a failed system and only the mental institution system was able to help these people. But sadly this system was ended when Civil Rights lawsuits prevented people from being housed and treated "against their will".

 

[marylander1940]

2 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

A large majority of these so-called "homeless" are drug addicts and mentally ill.  You can provide them with a home but they won't be able to keep it. They will destroy it and be out in the street within the year. It happens all the time. Its a failed system and only the mental institution system was able to help these people. But sadly this system was ended when Civil Rights lawsuits prevented people from being housed and treated "against their will".

 

That's why I said they should be treated. 

The fail system you described, and previously mentioned by others including myself, is a self-inflicted wound. We Americans sometimes create our own worst problems!

nec vitia nostra nec remedia pati possumus

That phrase might sound exaggerated now but if we hurt the motors of innovation that are the big cities like San Francisco and the great state of California nothing good will come. 

 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

17 hours ago, Unicorn said:

What does the 9th Circuit have to do with this (other than that its headquarters is in SF)?

The 9th Circuit ruled in 2018 that cities cannot ban camping in public spaces.

https://www.nlc.org/article/2018/09/19/what-the-ninth-circuits-camping-ruling-means-for-housing-first-strategies-in-cities/

This 2018 ruling applies to cities in the following states: Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington.

You may have noticed a large uptick in urban camping that started year that has yet to subside.  I noticed it in Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Las Vegas almost overnight as transient homeless set up camp on sidewalks that year.   For my masters thesis in 2019, I interviewed homeless people in tent camps in Las Vegas.  A majority of whom I talked to said they previously used about half of their disability checks for affordable weekly rentals.  But now that the police can't arrest them for camping on the streets, they would rather sleep outdoors and save their disability checks for more beer and cigarettes.

While my masters thesis was not on San Francisco, I suspect many urban campers there have no desire to move indoors for a nominal cost.

Amusingly, one of the homeless men I interviewed in Las Vegas said he rotated to California every few years because California would give him bonus payments as a newly homeless person in that state, and then move back to Nevada when he no longer qualified for the California bonus.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Vegas_Millennial

[Guest]

3 hours ago, marylander1940 said:

...nec vitia nostra nec remedia pati possumus

That phrase might sound exaggerated now ...

 

Well, to me that phrase sounds more like something to do with Irish possums. 😉

[+ nycman]

8 hours ago, marylander1940 said:

nec vitia nostra nec remedia pati possumus

That phrase might sound exaggerated now but…..

That beautiful passage by Livy deserves more than a snippet….

"Let anyone who reads these instead pay attention to what life was like, what the customs were, through which men and by which skills the empire was born and increased. And, when discipline bit by bit deteriorated, how at first customs degraded with desire, then they collapsed more and more, then they began to fall headlong until we came to our own time when we can endure neither our sins nor their remedies.”

- Livy, Ab Urbe Condita, Praefatio 9

https://sententiaeantiquae.com/2015/05/29/what-should-one-learn-from-early-histories-livy-ab-urbe-condita-praefatio-9/

 

[marylander1940]

6 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Well, to me that phrase sounds more like something to do with Irish possums. 😉

 

2 hours ago, nycman said:

That beautiful passage by Livy deserves more than a snippet….

"Let anyone who reads these instead pay attention to what life was like, what the customs were, through which men and by which skills the empire was born and increased. And, when discipline bit by bit deteriorated, how at first customs degraded with desire, then they collapsed more and more, then they began to fall headlong until we came to our own time when we can endure neither our sins nor their remedies.”

- Livy, Ab Urbe Condita, Praefatio 9

https://sententiaeantiquae.com/2015/05/29/what-should-one-learn-from-early-histories-livy-ab-urbe-condita-praefatio-9/

 

Same phrase 2 very different reactions!

[+ Pensant]

Now that I’ve become sadly less idealistic, I view some issues, like homelessness, as intractable given our current political, social and economic environment. These are things, like gun violence, that we have to live with.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

20 hours ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

there are nearly as many hurdles to develop government subsidized housing as there are for a private citizen to build a house or operate a business in that state

there are actually way more hurdles to build housing for homeless, thus the exorbitant costs.

i agree that solutions should include building housing in areas that do not have same cost considerations and/or complex regulations.  That means going outside California which will never happen.

33 minutes ago, Pensant said:

Now that I’ve become sadly less idealistic, I view some issues, like homelessness, as intractable given our current political, social and economic environment. These are things, like gun violence, that we have to live with.

agree 100%.  The thing I keep returning to though is that other rich developed counties do not have these same issues - homelessness & gun violence.

why is it only in America ?