What is it with unsolicited groping among gay men?

[+ PhileasFogg]

Last month I was at The Hacienda in Palm Springs.  One day in the pool, a guy  I was conversing with takes spontaneous liberty to grope my ass (as in, feeling around to stick his finger in) and grabbing my penis.   I managed to drift aside with my virtue in tact  

This week, I’m at Island House in Key West.  Last night my friend and I were having a drink at a bar on Duval.  Two other guests from IH walked in, saw us, and came over to talk.  Polite conversation ensued until, out of the blue, one of them takes unsolicited liberty to start rubbing my leg beneath my shorts.  As I pushed his hand away, he came back at me HIGHER up!  So we left  

in neither case did I send off any indication of interest except polite conversation  

Have gay men not gotten the memo that these kinds of unsolicited acts are tantamount to assault?

[samhexum]

It's just the mating ritual of Homo Erectus.

5 minutes ago, PhileasFogg said:

What is it with unsolicited groping among gay men?

 

[+ PhileasFogg]

13 minutes ago, samhexum said:

It's just the mating ritual of Homo Erectus.

 

I should have said “Hey, that’s the VIP section and you’re not on the guest list”

[+ newatthis]

I would take it as a compliment...would only get pissed off if he persisted after I told him "no"

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

55 minutes ago, PhileasFogg said:

Last month I was at The Hacienda in Palm Springs

 

55 minutes ago, PhileasFogg said:

This week, I’m at Island House in Key West.

Both of these locations are clothing optional retreats for gay men and, especially Island House, known for frisky behavior.

I would be surprised if someone DIDN'T say hello with a friendly grope.

[+ PhileasFogg]

42 minutes ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

 

Both of these locations are clothing optional retreats for gay men and, especially Island House, known for frisky behavior.

I would be surprised if someone DIDN'T say hello with a friendly grope.

Naked isn’t an invitation to touch - despite the beauty of the object 😇 and this week’s experience was in a public venue.

I’m not buying it.  Maybe I should be flattered or maybe I’m more attractive than I think, but it’s not like I’ve been hanging out in the red room with my pants around my ankles   

[+ sniper]

Eh, naked gay resorts tend to advertise as a bathhouse environment so it's not quite the same thing IMO. That said, a no of any kind should be immediately respected and any kind of penetration attempt is not an opening move.

 

Also, i am not someone who goes doing those things because I'm generally not bold, but, say, a squeeze of my butt by someone I'm chatting with when we're both naked isn't something I think is totally unexpected/outrageous.  But persisting after I have declined is not acceptable behavior.

 

 

[+ PhileasFogg]

8 minutes ago, sniper said:

Eh, naked gay resorts tend to advertise as a bathhouse environment so it's not quite the same thing IMO. That said, a no of any kind should be immediately respected and any kind of penetration attempt is not an opening move.

 

Also, i am not someone who goes doing those things because I'm generally not bold, but, say, a squeeze of my butt by someone I'm chatting with when we're both naked isn't something I think is totally unexpected/outrageous.  But persisting after I have declined is not acceptable behavior.

 

 

I agree.  But, while I’m here, I’ve not been in the cruisy parts like the hot tubs, saunas or the red room.    And, grabbing my ass and trying to stick a finger doesn’t pass the “sniff test” (pun intended) especially for a top like me 😂😂🤠

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

1 hour ago, sniper said:

...any kind of penetration attempt is not an opening move.

It is with enough lube  😈 

Edited 13 hours ago by Vegas_Millennial
Emoji

[+ nycman]

Yeah, I’d say you’re swimming in the wrong pool. Stick to the shallow end of the kiddie pool and you’ll be fine.

While no one likes unwanted touch, I personally don’t think of it as "tantamount to assault". In my youth, I’d simply thought it was part of a gay man’s right of passage. The other day I was at a bar and a woman in her 70s was sitting next to me with her son and carrying on. "In my day, if you went out on the town and a man wasn’t pitching your ass you, weren’t doing it right". Her son was mortified and scolded her. I bought her a drink.

At the same time, if I politely brushed your hand away and you persisted, then I would grab you firmly by the wrist and say "if you fucking touch me again, I’ll break your goddamn wrist". Problem solved. Every time. #punklife

[TonyDown]

That seems creepy IMO, what happened to you.  But yeah, some guys are apt to grab without asking.  Keeping other guests at a comfortable distance is justified.

That said, based on my visits, The Hacienda expects guests to take any sexual activity inside their room.  In the pool areas, everyone has been friendly and relaxed.  I enjoy conversing with most of the lovely guests, but yeah sometimes after listening and observing, I try to avoid an outlier, here and there.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

At clothing-optional men-only pools in Palm Springs and Florida, I've been greeted with underwater blowjobs and rim jobs.  In each case, I am cordial and cary on my conversation with others nearby in the pool, then introduce myself to the fellow who blew or rimmed me when he comes up for air.

Similarly, when I've given underwater blowjobs in the pool, the men politely waited until I came up for air before stopping to introduce themselves and let me know if they were partnered, etc.

It's these social graces unique to gay men's pools that need to be taught and passed down to each new generation, especially with the confusing #MeToo movement overreaction to everything.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

Even with clothing on at gay bars, I've reached out and paid my respects to others by groping their front or back sides at least 100+ times as a way to say hello.  Only once in 2018, in New York City, did someone ever say "No" to me.  And in the 100+ times that I've been groped with my clothes on in a gay bar, I politely turned away and said "No thank you" maybe once or twice.  Again, it's part of the learned social graces of a gay bar that must be taught to the younger generations.

Edited 13 hours ago by Vegas_Millennial
Spelling

[CuriousByNature]

Where exactly are these two places, again? lol

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

3 minutes ago, CuriousByNature said:

Where exactly are these two places, again? lol

I believe it was the ass and the penis

🥳 

[marylander1940]

3 hours ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

 

Both of these locations are clothing optional retreats for gay men and, especially Island House, known for frisky behavior.

I would be surprised if someone DIDN'T say hello with a friendly grope.

Exactly, most people go to places like that looking for sex. 

@PhileasFogg take it as a compliment!

I would change the name of the thread to:

What is it with unsolicited groping among gay men in places where groping is expected?

Edited 13 hours ago by marylander1940

[BigK]

6 minutes ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

I believe it was the ass and the penis

🥳

😈

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

2 minutes ago, marylander1940 said:

Exactly, most people go to places like that looking for sex. 

@PhileasFogg take it as a compliment!

Yes 💯.  It's akin to going into a church on Sunday morning and then being upset that the pastor sprinkled you with Holy Water without your consent.

[Lotus-eater]

4 hours ago, PhileasFogg said:

Last month I was at The Hacienda in Palm Springs.  One day in the pool, a guy  I was conversing with takes spontaneous liberty to grope my ass (as in, feeling around to stick his finger in) and grabbing my penis.   I managed to drift aside with my virtue in tact  

This week, I’m at Island House in Key West.  

 

[+ PhileasFogg]

1 hour ago, marylander1940 said:

Exactly, most people go to places like that looking for sex. 

@PhileasFogg take it as a compliment!

I would change the name of the thread to:

What is it with unsolicited groping among gay men in places where groping is expected?

“Most” is the key word. I came for a lineless tan.  And I sent no signals inviting touch from anyone but my travel companion.   In fact, being lean with a classic physique, he got plenty of stares but no uninvited gropes (and feeling the same as me, he’d probably punch someone who touched him without permission)

while I’m not going to get melodramatic and blow my personal response out of proportion, you’re kinda saying that “I asked for it” and “boys will be boys”….hmmm, where have I heard that before.

IF this is a lauded aspect of “gay culture” to do this to strangers without invitation, then something is f’d up - especially if you’re holding this up as an initiation game for younger men coming out as well.  

[marylander1940]

1 minute ago, PhileasFogg said:

“Most” is the key word. I came for a lineless tan.  And I sent no signals inviting touch from anyone but my travel companion.   In fact, being lean with a classic physique, he got plenty of stares but no uninvited gropes (and feeling the same as me, he’d probably punch someone who touched him without permission)

while I’m not going to get melodramatic and blow my personal response out of proportion, you’re kinda saying that “I asked for it” and “boys will be boys”….hmmm, where have I heard that before.

IF this is a lauded aspect of “gay culture” to do this to strangers without invitation, then something is f’d up - especially if you’re holding this up as an initiation game for younger men coming out as well.  

no,  @Vegas_Millennial others and me are not saying you asked for it.

Someone made a pass at you in a place where folks usually go to meet guys. 

is not gay culture..... it's gay culture at certain places. 

younger men are n their phones and usually don't go to places like this one and might not even know they exists. 

[+ PhileasFogg]

32 minutes ago, marylander1940 said:

no,  @Vegas_Millennial others and me are not saying you asked for it.

Someone made a pass at you in a place where folks usually go to meet guys. 

 

you may have missed that this most recent experience was in a bar.  I went there for a drink with my companion, not to meet guys.

But it’s good to know that if, as a bisexual male, I went to a bar and groped a woman that it would be OK because surely she was there to meet somebody, right?

Why do I feel you trying, against logic, to justify a double standard. And to say it’s nuanced is not an acceptable answer.

Just so we can level set here, I did a little research (and after reading it, maybe you can try again in telling me why it was OK because it was gay or a gay hangout)

1. Sexual Assault / Sexual Battery

• Even brief, unwanted touching of intimate areas (such as the thigh, buttocks, breast, or genital region) is often classified as sexual assault or sexual battery, depending on the state.
• These crimes generally don’t require physical injury — the non-consensual sexual contact itself is enough.

2. Criminal vs. Civil

• Criminal liability: The person could face arrest, charges, fines, or jail time.
• Civil liability: You could also have grounds for a civil lawsuit (e.g., battery, emotional distress).

3. Key Legal Elements

• Lack of consent: Your clear lack of permission is central.
• Intent: If the act was intentional (not accidental), that usually satisfies the criminal requirement.

4. Variations by State

• Some states use the term sexual assault broadly; others distinguish sexual battery (touching) from rape (penetration).
• Penalties range from misdemeanors to felonies depending on circumstances (e.g., force, threats, repeat offenses, victim’s age).

[marylander1940]

43 minutes ago, PhileasFogg said:

you may have missed that this most recent experience was in a bar.  I went there for a drink with my companion, not to meet guys.

But it’s good to know that if, as a bisexual male, I went to a bar and groped a woman that it would be OK because surely she was there to meet somebody, right?

Why do I feel you trying, against logic, to justify a double standard. And to say it’s nuanced is not an acceptable answer.

Just so we can level set here, I did a little research (and after reading it, maybe you can try again in telling me why it was OK because it was gay or a gay hangout)

1. Sexual Assault / Sexual Battery

• Even brief, unwanted touching of intimate areas (such as the thigh, buttocks, breast, or genital region) is often classified as sexual assault or sexual battery, depending on the state.
• These crimes generally don’t require physical injury — the non-consensual sexual contact itself is enough.

2. Criminal vs. Civil

• Criminal liability: The person could face arrest, charges, fines, or jail time.
• Civil liability: You could also have grounds for a civil lawsuit (e.g., battery, emotional distress).

3. Key Legal Elements

• Lack of consent: Your clear lack of permission is central.
• Intent: If the act was intentional (not accidental), that usually satisfies the criminal requirement.

4. Variations by State

• Some states use the term sexual assault broadly; others distinguish sexual battery (touching) from rape (penetration).
• Penalties range from misdemeanors to felonies depending on circumstances (e.g., force, threats, repeat offenses, victim’s age).

I'll keep you in mind next time a real victim is slut shamed in this forum. Happens a lot!

You are overreacting.

[+ PhileasFogg]

 

42 minutes ago, marylander1940 said:

I'll keep you in mind next time a real victim is slut shamed in this forum. Happens a lot!

You are overreacting.

Is that the evasive way of saying “facts don’t matter?”  If you think you have something to add, please pay attention 

2 hours ago, PhileasFogg said:

“while I’m not going to get melodramatic and blow my personal response out of proportion…”

Notwithstanding your weak deflection, do you have something to offer of substance other than your suggestion that assault is not assault if it’s gay on gay or in a gang hangout?

Back to my scenario, I’m guessing if I did what I described to a woman in a bar, you’d be one of the first people to call me a “pussy grabber”

So tell me again how am I overreacting?

Edited 9 hours ago by PhileasFogg

[soloyo215]

8 hours ago, PhileasFogg said:

Have gay men not gotten the memo that these kinds of unsolicited acts are tantamount to assault?

Assault? Sounds a little dramatic. Unwanted advances, boundary crossing, poor judgement, harassment, not respecting personal space maybe, but assault? To me assault involves a level of aggressiveness where you need to physically defend yourself, not fend off unwelcome touch.

REGARDLESS, I agree that it could be quite uncomfortable. However, if I could ask, had there been instances when you have welcomed such "approach"? I ask since this has been the topic of many conversations I've had with friends, family and in many other social settings for decades. The thing is that the vast majority of the time the person complaining does so only when they feel the touch and groping is unwanted, neglecting to recognize the other times when the same touching and groping has been welcome and wanted. Of course, I don't know you, which is why I inquire. Every time I have a conversation about this, that's my starting point.

Many times we focus on the touch we don't welcome, neglecting to recognize that the same approach is used with the touch we have welcomed from other people.

Just my thoughts, not law.