Ghosting 2.0

[Jaroslav]

I understand there’s a topic of this from 2022.

There’s a thread here about social texting and the fuzzy etiquette around that. What do you make of a regular provider who has engaged in minimal social texting every few days, sometimes every few weeks, who has said that courtesy means communicating, even if it’s to say we’re done communicating BUT then ghosts? Is the original statement about not dropping you like a used condom to be believed or is such behavior indicative that you’ve been ghosted and said provider is in fact no longer a provider for you, let alone a regular?

[MscleLovr]

2 hours ago, Jaroslav said:

Is the original statement about not dropping you like a used condom to be believed or is such behavior indicative that you’ve been ghosted

Yes.

Don’t get wound up over this. You’ll waste time and energy if you overthink why a provider has reacted this way to you.

If, in the future, there's a point when you’d like to meet the guy again, send him a short message with your date/time. If he responds, you’ll know you’re no longer ghosted; you will become a client. If he doesn’t respond, move on.

[DWnyc]

Ghosting behavior is sometimes not ghosting.

Providers could have many reasons for not replying to a single message (vs cutting you off generally) including being overwhelmed with volume of messages from inquiries, they could have been with a client at the time etc and without an assistant managing their comms things can get missed. Or, to be blunt, drunk or high - I’ve been told more than once that’s a reason for not having replied.

Though I’m a little confused …  if he has already said “we’re done communicating …” why are you still reaching out? If he’s silent after telling you that, it might not be ghosting, rather telling you more explicitly not to communicate with him. 

 

[Jaroslav]

@DWnyc, he didn’t say we’re done. That’s partly why I asked about ghosting. No such message ever was received. He always complained about people not being decent enough to communicate even if it was unpleasant, but then he seemingly does the same thing. I need to take my own wisdom and remember that escorts aren’t friends and you can’t expect them to act that way. 

[DWnyc]

37 minutes ago, Jaroslav said:

@DWnyc, he didn’t say we’re done. That’s partly why I asked about ghosting. No such message ever was received. He always complained about people not being decent enough to communicate even if it was unpleasant, but then he seemingly does the same thing. I need to take my own wisdom and remember that escorts aren’t friends and you can’t expect them to act that way. 

Sorry I misunderstood. 

They don’t have to be friends … but can be … depending on how that’s defined and it can mean different things for people … but even if they don’t consider themselves as your friend they can be friendly. 

One can be friends with ones doctor, lawyer, business clients and partners … and sometimes those are dependent on the business side going well … but doesn’t mean a warm relationship can’t be a form of friendship, 

[Jaroslav]

2 hours ago, DWnyc said:

Doesn’t mean a warm relationship can’t be a form of friendship, 

Eh. There I disagree. A friendship is different. Friendships don’t depend on “business doing well.” In fact, friendships will overcome difficulties quicker than transitional relationships. A friend doesn’t just disappear when the going gets tough.

Again, not a problem as long as it’s kept in perspective. As you say, you can be friendly with your doctor, but you’re not friends.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Jaroslav

[DWnyc]

1 hour ago, Jaroslav said:

Eh. There I disagree. A friendship is different. Friendships don’t depend on “business doing well.” In fact, friendships will overcome difficulties quicker than transitional relationships. A friend doesn’t just disappear when the going gets tough.

Again, not a problem as long as it’s kept in perspective. As you say, you can be friendly with your doctor, but you’re not friends.

It’s partly a matter of definition. The difference between acquaintances and friends for some, or close friends vs other friends for others. It’s like your work friends who you might not have anything in common with once you switch jobs, or your college friends outside your innermost circle once you leave. 

If the test of a relationship being defined as friendship is sticking around when the going gets tough I doubt there’s much scope for provider - client “friendship”. But that definition would result in a small number of friendships under any scenario. It’s not necessailry a matter of being a bad friend / not a friend - there’s the issue of bandwidth / emotional energy / “I didn’t sign up for this …” etc as well. 

[Jaroslav]

I prefer the German hesitancy to label people Freund. They stick with Kollege, Kommilitone, or Bekannte. Freunde are those who are especially close, maybe even physically so. I’d say escorts are Bekannte in most instances.

Nonetheless, Bekannte can be friendly (freundlich) and it’s rude, in my opinion, to ghost even as a Bekannte. The whole ghosting phenomenon in our world today is really a lack of respect and failure to appreciate someone else’s dignity.

Would it *really* kill someone to say “I’m done” – even if said rudely? I suppose if you don’t give a fuck, it doesn’t matter.

[DWnyc]

They may not be done … they may not just be available to you in the way you Want them to be at that time.

Don’t know what was being asked of the client and if any boundaries may have been crossed by general standards (as opposed to yours).

 

 

 

[MscleLovr]

On 3/30/2023 at 1:40 AM, Jaroslav said:

I prefer the German hesitancy to label people Freund.

I agree with this. I have a small number of good friends. My “acid test” for friendship is whether I could call them at 2am asking for help and know they would respond. 

[Rudynate]

On 3/26/2023 at 9:22 AM, Jaroslav said:

I understand there’s a topic of this from 2022.

There’s a thread here about social texting and the fuzzy etiquette around that. What do you make of a regular provider who has engaged in minimal social texting every few days, sometimes every few weeks, who has said that courtesy means communicating, even if it’s to say we’re done communicating BUT then ghosts? Is the original statement about not dropping you like a used condom to be believed or is such behavior indicative that you’ve been ghosted and said provider is in fact no longer a provider for you, let alone a regular?

There aren't any rules.  You have to determine when trying to get a response is no longer worth the time and aggravation. 

[+ DrownedBoy]

I think of my regulars as businessmen I work with, and that I've found to be professional, trustworthy,  nice, and can get the job done.

Same as my barber and mechanic. We get along and chat while conducting business,  but business is the only reason we meet.

Sorry, but if you pay money to see someone, they are neither a friend nor acquaintance. That doesn't mean you can't get along and compliment them on their trade. But it does mean it's improper to let personal issues and emotions come into it.

Edited April 2, 2023 by DrownedBoy

[DWnyc]

On 3/31/2023 at 4:56 AM, MscleLovr said:

I agree with this. I have a small number of good friends. My “acid test” for friendship is whether I could call them at 2am asking for help and know they would respond. 

Not if they have turned on the  “do not disturb” feature on their iPhones 😊

[MscleLovr]

You do know there are two different ways to over-ride that feature and reach a person, right?

[Rod Hagen]

18 hours ago, DrownedBoy said:

I think of my regulars as businessmen I work with, and that I've found to be professional, trustworthy,  nice, and can get the job done.

Same as my barber and mechanic. We get along and chat while conducting business,  but business is the only reason we meet.

Sorry, but if you pay money to see someone, they are neither a friend nor acquaintance. That doesn't mean you can't get along and compliment them on their trade. But it does mean it's improper to let personal issues and emotions come into it.

The reality is they often do become friends, for better or worse, and for me it's always been a good thing, the friendships, and some very close friendships, that have grown between some of my clients and myself.  Yes there is money coming my way, additionally our lives are richer for our friendships. Both things are true.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Rod Hagen

[Jaroslav]

@Rod Hagen– Would you consider circumstances where you spend time and have physical intimacy with these friends if money weren’t coming your way? 

[DWnyc]

45 minutes ago, Jaroslav said:

@Rod Hagen– Would you consider circumstances where you spend time and have physical intimacy with these friends if money weren’t coming your way? 

Interesting question but it shouldn’t detract from the point that friendships can occur through what begins (and may continue) ad a transactional arrangement. And ending that arrangement shouldn’t be a test of that friendship. 

[+ DrownedBoy]

3 hours ago, DWnyc said:

Interesting question but it shouldn’t detract from the point that friendships can occur through what begins (and may continue) ad a transactional arrangement. And ending that arrangement shouldn’t be a test of that friendship. 

The question is whether or not the relationship constitutes a "friendship. "

That being said, everyone from Cicero to Francis Bacon wrote essays trying to define friendship, and nobody agrees.

[Jaroslav]

3 hours ago, DWnyc said:

Interesting question but it shouldn’t detract from the point that friendships can occur through what begins (and may continue) ad a transactional arrangement. And ending that arrangement shouldn’t be a test of that friendship. 

That sounds like a deflection.

I don’t pay people to be my friends. Friends spend time together. My friends and I do things for each. Favors. Sometimes things with no reciprocity. Sometimes in our professional wheelhouse as well. We don’t “transact” such favors. That’s what friends do. My barber is a friend. He never charges me for my haircut. Just an example.

If you’d maintain the same relationship ceteris paribus without a financial transaction with these providers, then you’re friends as I see it. Otherwise it’s a client-provider relationship that’s friendly. Which is good, but not a friendship.

IMHO

[DWnyc]

If a friendly relationship emerges from these scenarios, I don’t see it as paying people to be your friend. You’re paying them to be your barber, dentist whatever … any warmth or common interests you discover in the process is a bonus, not the purpose of the transaction. And I wouldn’t want to stop paying my barber if we started becoming friendly.

It may just be that we have a different worldview, including what constitutes “friendship”, and that’s totally fine. I don’t think we differ on what expectations one might have might have from such interactions.

I’m fine calling someone I occasionally see and enjoy spending time with a friend and wouldn’t restrict the word to those in my inner circle. I wouldn’t necessarily invite them to my wedding or expect them to share burden of difficult times I might be experiencing. It’s fine if others use different words for that looser tie. 

And a practical point as well. People move, their lives change, they may fall out with us and so forth. Always good to leave the door open for new people entering one’s life and people rarely do so as a close friend from the first interaction. 

 

[Rod Hagen]

23 hours ago, Jaroslav said:

That sounds like a deflection.

I don’t pay people to be my friends. Friends spend time together. My friends and I do things for each. Favors. Sometimes things with no reciprocity. Sometimes in our professional wheelhouse as well. We don’t “transact” such favors. That’s what friends do. My barber is a friend. He never charges me for my haircut. Just an example.

If you’d maintain the same relationship ceteris paribus without a financial transaction with these providers, then you’re friends as I see it. Otherwise it’s a client-provider relationship that’s friendly. Which is good, but not a friendship.

IMHO

It wasn't a deflection. You seem to see disagreements to your belief, ON this subject specifically (I'm not generalizing about you broadly) as deflections or only half-the-story.

In answer to your question to me, Yes I would, absolutely.  In practice, however, I don't have money. Friends and strangers give me money so that I then at least have some.  Looking at other providers, for example, presumably Kevin does have money, and people give him money so that he has even more.  This is a nice gig AND when the feelings are there they are real wether you see it that way or not.  Either I'm lying or I'm not.  It's what you choose to believe.

Dude, I just spent every day of the last 6 weeks in the hospital (see other thread) with my Client/Friend, it's not like he's paying me to do that. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Rod Hagen

[DWnyc]

Perhaps I (and a few others) differ from the OP as we may be considering possibilities in general, rather than from a specific situation.

 

 

[Alex93108]

On 3/29/2023 at 8:40 PM, Jaroslav said:

The whole ghosting phenomenon in our world today is really a lack of respect and failure to appreciate someone else’s dignity.

 

 

Whole heartedly agree with the above statement.  Not communicating is communicating - and inaction is in fact, taking action.  The worst thing you can do is to do nothing ( its such a British thing - for perfect example of this, though not directly related, see Bill Nighy's new movie, Living) 

A very good friend of mine is German ( straight ) and I appreciate you sharing this with me. After some thought, I think I would qualify as his Freunde. He lives in Hamburg, and would fly to the UK where I live now to see me if the situation warranted.

It goes both ways ; He almost got arrested once ( for a very silly thing) when visiting the US, while I was there and had it happened, I would have posted bail, if he asked.  I guess this meets the 2am test.

Who can post bail for you from jail?

@Jaroslav Could you elaborate further on the differences between Kollege, Kommilitone, and Bekannte for us English speakers? 

I know Freunde from the last movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony - almost brotherly  for those of you that know your Classical music. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by jetlow

[mike carey]

On 4/4/2023 at 3:21 AM, Jaroslav said:

@Rod Hagen– Would you consider circumstances where you spend time and have physical intimacy with these friends if money weren’t coming your way? 

To me there are two separate issues involved here, friendship and physical intimacy. The relationship between two people can start as one of those and develop to include the other. Money may be an essential part of the whole deal but it may not remain that way.

The money can drop out of the equation in more than one way. Without it the whole arrangement could end, or the other two elements could both remain. Alternatively the friendship could remain, but absent the money the physical intimacy could cease. So the answer to your question could be (and I'm speaking in the general case, not for @Rod Hagen) spend time yes, physical intimacy no.

[Jamie21]

I’ve a friend who started out as a client. He hired me about a dozen times. We first met at a social event and then he began hiring me. We became friends and the final time he hired me I declined payment because the relationship had changed. It’s the only client that has happened with but I felt uneasy about him paying me when our relationship had developed into friendship (meals out, holidays, theatre trips etc). It’s not a bf situation because he knows what I do and neither of us is monogamous.

I personally would find it difficult to treat friends as paying clients. I prefer to keep that separate.