DWnyc

52 minutes ago, DrownedBoy said:

Does anyone think that if escorting was legalized in the U.S., problems like this will go away, or at least be less of a factor?

For the problems to go away, society has to change. That happens, but it takes generations … we think less in America now about who might secretly be a Catholic like we once used to, for instance.

Legislation can help reduce the problems by setting a standard of expected behavior, and would provide a path for recourse. Would also allow better data gathering and allow for more transparency on pricing. 

But the problems won’t disappear any time soon.

I can’t see even in a legalized environment many clients or providers being willing to go on the record given the stigma associated with this hobby. 

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

I'm not saying it doesn't happen.

I'm saying I don't understand how anyone can be so immoral as to make another human being feel that they aren't worthy of the rate they ask. If you are shopping at Saks you don't ask your salesperson to mark down a leather jacket because you think it's worth less ( and it probably is ) but you wouldn't have the nerve. Why do people think they can behave like this with escorts ? Because they aren't worthy of dignity ? Then to assume someone is worth less, because they aren't a blond surfer boy ? All reprehensible and indicative of a cruel and narcissistic personality flaw in the client.

Ok … but that’s the point of the discussion …to ask if it happens as a general trend, starting from the premise that it shouldn’t happen.

Our individual moral compasses and track record are not up for scrutiny here. 

To reiterate what has been said many times before, so not an original thought:

Just don’t rely on anyone (provider, client, hookup, partner etc) telling you they’re on PREP or that they have a health status that influences your behavior.

People don’t often know their actual status, or they may be lying for whatever reason etc and you have to take responsibility for your own health, on the metrics important to you.

And there’s that heat of the moment thing as well … 

5 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

I just don't understand negotiating rates. You're not buying a car or a home. You're asking a human being for his time and attention. How tacky to tell someone of any color that they're worth less ! 

You may not understand it, but it happens and that’s the main point of this discussion: To acknowledge that it happens.  But not just for race. 

Unregulated markets mean both the best and worst of capitalist traits, and some from those who consider themselves stronger will inevitably bully those they consider to be weaker. It’s been the same since caveman days.

There’s a flip side to this, worthy of another thread … about when providers bully clients and ask for more than what was agreed to, and do they play that game with some more than others. The power dynamic between a fit young attractive provider and an aging closeted unfit weaker client of any race (but some races may be more vulnerable) isn’t difficult to imagine. Can you imagine bad behavior from regular providers you like and trust? No, neither can I. Do you like and trust every provider you’ve ever met …?

10 hours ago, rojjodc said:

How are all of you finding the rates on Rentmen?  I though they used to publish rates for some providers, but I don't see them anymore.   I guess I have become a cheap old man - I have hard time wanting to pay more than $250-300 even though I have a much higher net worth than when I was younger and paying about the same amount....

Some non US based sites do list pricing, but usually I think it’s just from asking.

One of the issues earlier in the thread was the degree to which some providers are negotiated down based on factors such as race (but could also include age etc). So published / upfront rates are not the only indicator for this discussion, it’s also a question of where one ends up after the back and forth. 

Not to mention things like tipping, paying for extra time etc where there may be differences in how the average client treats the average provider all else being equal. 

22 minutes ago, Spiritualadvisor said:

It baffles me why people would risk their lives for a few hundred dollars. I understand why those already infected with STDs wouldn’t mind unprotected sex, but why would healthy providers risk it? 
 

'Out Of Control' STDs Found In New York State Than Most Of US

HUDSONVALLEYPOST.COM

---

You are more likely to get a sexually transmitted disease living in New York State than in most of the United States.

 

A provider’s personal preferences aside, I think it’s not just a matter of a few hundred dollars, but their calculation of their entire livelihood, given prevailing client norms.

1 hour ago, Jaroslav said:

That hasn’t been my experience. I used to be hesitant to ask about bareback, especially if it’s posted safe only, but I have yet to have a guy say no to it or charge more.

My anecdotal experience is that culturally (on the US east coast at least) things have shifted from bare being a hushed secret ask, to the norm. This applies to both the provider scene and hookup culture in general.

Safe now seems something you have to request when making an appointment, bare being the assumed preference. 

Won’t be apparent if people are filtering for “safe only” to begin with. 

2 hours ago, MikeBiDude said:

Has anyone experienced  a provider quoting one price “safe” with condoms and another higher price for bareback? Always makes me shake my head, usually a $100-$150 up charge. Makes me wonder. Any thoughts or experience with this up charge?

I’ve seen the opposite actually (higher price with condoms as “it’s much harder to perform”) though not that much of a markup. I’ve also seen more than one provider refuse to meet at all if that was a requirement.

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

To be clear you specifically said "light skinned Latinos" but I am instead referring to dark skin Latinos who dominate the muscle stud market in NYC. ( And Florida too ).

My unscientific non exhaustive anecdotal observations in the NY market are different (on Latinos being the most expensive) but we may not be looking at the same market segments or be comparing apples to apples.

I once had a provider who himself finished a little early in the session. I don’t need or even want providers to finish and I always assumed they preferred it that way (ie save themselves for the next client).

He then said he was no good after that, and things became very awkward … he suggested we end and he’d make up the time (prepaid) in a future booking.  It was early in my hiring days and I didn’t know better and reassured him it was ok, I was actually flattered, it was hot watching him get excited etc … I guess I was the one giving him the BFE …

On 4/7/2023 at 12:58 PM, José Soplanucas said:

I do not think that is possible after the BLM and woke movements rise. 

You’re giving too much credit to some people.

And those movements for all the good they may have done have also triggered counter movements on a mass scale too. “All lives matter” for instance. 

1 hour ago, TonyDown said:

So there could be other factors besides race that determine different tiers of pricing. 

(Btw I’m super impressed you found a Pashtun) 

It’s a combo of factors;, race isnt the only one but it could be significant, all else being equal. 

I recall an obnoxious post on Grindr on the lines of “if you’re above 40 or ethnic you better be hot or have a big dick”.

21 hours ago, jessmapex said:

 

I have been on both sides of this (as a race-based rejector and rejectee) , so I don't blame anyone but the society we live in and our upbringing that bias our preferences. But preferences do evolve as one ages and matures. 

I will however mention that it was hurtful to be a rejectee on Grindr (and Craigslist before that), but it is supremely hurtful when a provider rejects for race. A good lesson confirming money can't buy everything. 

 

Serious question. If you have rejected on race, why is it hurtful to face the same treatment? I understand being rejected is never fun, but aren’t you being played by your own rules?  

5 hours ago, jt30331 said:

You’re right. We disagree on views/approach. I’ll leave it there. 

And I’ll let you have the last word even with your consistent framing of this a certain way.

Take a look at some of the reactions above and how such conversations go generally, with eye rolls, “I don’t experience it so it can’t happen”, “i‘m not that way so it can’t be so”, “that’s the way it is, deal with it” etc ., and halting some discussions as “no longer on topic” (aka “uncomfortable”) all while other discussions in parallel veer off on every tangent imaginable. Some of this is the silence of the good people, but some of it more sinister. 

I assume you care about this issue a lot based on your comments, but focusing on our disagreements doesn’t actually serve the cause given all that’s around us if we are (as I assume) on the same side on the main issues. 

As I think back to some experiences. I think some of this is situation specific.

In one case a growing friendship made it harder for me to keep making bookings; the provider was more open about how he hated aspects of his work and it felt almost abusive to make him perform for my pleasure (even though he benefited from payment).

In another case I felt obligated to book more regularly than i would have for my new friend, particularly since he was struggling financially. But the sessions became increasingly stressful for both of us as neither of us were our normal social selves during them, so it felt inauthentic with a friend. Our last few bookings had me essentially giving him fees like a gift with no provider work, until he himself told me to stop.

2 hours ago, jt30331 said:

You’re right. I don’t know what you did or did not say to your racist friends/clients. That said, I wouldn’t minimize racist attitudes and/or behaviors to that of a simple disagreement. That said, you have your own way of addressing, if at all, racist behavior on the part of those with whom you do business, personal or otherwise. 
 

 

Who’s minimizing here?

But I don’t think is possible or healthy to reduce everything to “is this person x-ist” (racist, ageist, sizeist if such a word exists and so on) and then make existential judgements on them. The reality is often far more nuanced, and I doubt there is a single one of us who escapes having prejudice (ie pre judging) of some sort or views that others might find offensive. These things vary across geography, generation, time etc as well. And also differ in importance to some, so I might be most offended by age discrimination, you by race and so forth. 

Coming back to the OP, our collective views influence what the market can support, and where such prejudice exists it does affect pricing. We’ve discussed that elsewhere in the forum when providers have wondered why their rates can’t be higher or why they can’t have stricter terms with clients. So yes there are obviously negative consequences to all this. Sounds like you and I differ on how we change the world on these matters, but that’s ok ... I agree the world should change, and that’s more than you’ll get from some others. 

6 hours ago, jt30331 said:

All I'm saying is that they're verbalizing the fact that they're stereotyping blacks, and trying to justify it with bullshit.  As you say, these are your "friends", so obviously you're totally free to do what you want.  However, I don't entertain or co-sign conversations that clearly are bigoted toward entire race (or races) of people.  I don't want people to confuse a silence and/or a listening ear with agreement.  

Well you don’t know what I may or may not have said in the entire conversations.

And Im reminded every Thanksgiving and college reunion that if I broke off ties with everyone I disagreed with I wouldn’t have anyone in my life. 

Apart from all you close friends on this forum 😊

12 minutes ago, José Soplanucas said:

When we point to structural racism as a challenge, there is always some oblivious/racist idiot saying:

What? But I am color blinded!

To be fair, they may genuinely feel this, and it doesn’t necessarily make them racist. At worst I’d say they could be naive or tone deaf in not reading the room or understanding how this may come across.  And perhaps forgetting the entitlement / privilege that allows them to express this.

My bigger issue is with those who deny the existence of problems they haven’t experienced, meaning they lack empathy or willingness to consider testimony on things that may be unfamiliar or uncomfortable. Like someone middle class wondering out loud why inflation is a problem for so many millions on products such as milk and eggs. Or any man opining on what it’s like to be a woman (in the workplace … walking alone at night … etc).

3 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

No, I don't claim to have solved the problem of race in the US.  I think, as long as we have the notion of "race," there will be a race problem. 

To be fair to us all in America, I can’t think of a single country I’m aware of that doesn’t have deep faultlines on all sorts of issues once you scratch the surface.

We also have very positive national traits of openness and allowing self criticism, so we talk about all this a lot more. Easy to fall into a trap of seeing ourselves as doomed or worse than elsewhere, but I don’t think that’s the case. 

I’m just remembering an anecdote from someone I met socially who was a provider, and Asian American.

He said his “provider profile” was that he was a visitor (note, not an immigrant) from Thailand, with an accent. That got him more clients, repeats, higher rates etc than being what he was Ie a kid from california who happened to be of Asian descent. 

18 minutes ago, jt30331 said:

These "higher rates of crime" are often mental/verbal cover for racist/prejudicial attitudes on the part of your friends/clients.  The stats that I have seen show that whites and blacks are head to head in relation to arrest rates, especially those related to violent crime and drugs.  I'm sure they're not citing stats that justify their racism/beliefs with you; and if they are, which are they citing?  

 

Sure, but no one is having an intellectual argument citing references with their gut when making choices based on what has been internalized over years … maybe ones whole life.

59 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

Somehow, I escaped it.  I'm a white boy who loves men of color.

That’s great, anecdotally.

Societal trends dictate expectations, however. And learned behavior, to conform or just get through each day often gravitates to those.

Change, leadership, innovation … in all aspects of our world,  usually come from those who, as you put it, escape the norm.

So here’s to more of you!

2 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

Every time I'm in Canada, I'm struck by the diversity. In the US, even in regions that are ethnically diverse, people tend to cluster into communities of people like themselves.   In Canada, it's much more of a mix.   

We have huge differences in systemic approach in US vs some of these other countries.

We have self segregation through where we live and therefore who we mix with at school, sports clubs etc and by the time were old enough to go to college or work and make our own decisions some of this becomes deeply entrenched.

And to be clear it’s not just whites vs everyone else. If you’re Asian and have never known someone African American socially … or if you’re East Indian vs Latinos etc (having a maid or gardener doesn’t count) it’s not surprising that you have “personal preference” biased against the unfamiliar, whether it’s on music, food, or sexual attraction. 

The personal preference issue is very complicated and can’t be solved through legislation or overnight but there are clearly societal causes since there are such significant differences by geography / country in mixed race interaction. But I’d settle for people just being nicer to each other as they expressed that preference. 

In a business that’s so unregulated and private it’s only natural that the worst of human behavior can come out. Who’s going to file a complaint? Or even gather data to address disbelief / denial of trends? 

Add to that the issue of what we call “personal preference” to allow validation as we discuss this all.  Then add further to that entitlement (eg through price differentials) and it’s inevitable these dynamics will exist.

@Jamie21 From what I know of the UK it doesn’t surprise me race is less of a factor (I think Toronto and Montreal are similar) and there’s a lot of history and baggage in the US on this issue. And within the US there’s probably difference in geography. One observation I’ve had when traveling is a lot more mixed race couples (especially black and white) of all orientations in Europe and Canada than in the US. Or look at the lines outside nightclubs (again, gay or straight) in eg London vs Chicago and you’ll see a lot more segregation (even if through personal choice).

I heard from more than one white friend (clients) who have said something on the lines of, given stereotypes of higher rates of crime (violence, drug use etc) among African Americans, they will avoid that demographic in providers since such meetings are already fraught with risks.