Joan Rivers' NYC Apartment

[coriolis888]

On 5/14/2025 at 4:41 AM, pubic_assistance said:

What about acerbic comedy do you not understand? Her style relied heavily on saying the things you think about but politely keep in your head.

I never thought that Michelle Obama was a drag queen despite frequent  accusations made.  Therefore, I must politely disagree  with you.  

 

[BSR]

8 minutes ago, coriolis888 said:

I never thought that Michelle Obama was a drag queen despite frequent  accusations made.  Therefore, I must politely disagree  with you.  

 

For most of her career, Joan Rivers was obnoxious but funny as hell.  Unfortunately, in her later years, she was sometimes just obnoxious and not really funny.  That said, I look at her whole career and think of all the times I was doubled over with laughter, plus I’ll always be grateful for her publicly embracing the gays decades before it was fashionable to do so.

As for her old apartment, I actually liked her over-the-top Marie Antoinette decor.  Not for me, at all, but if you’re going for that style, go whole hog, no apologies or half-assing it.  The new decor is like a wimpy, watered-down Marie Antoinette that leaves me totally “meh.”

[pubic_assistance]

2 hours ago, coriolis888 said:

I never thought that Michelle Obama was a drag queen despite frequent  accusations made. 

Really ? She always looked like an ugly dude in a dress to me. So when Joan said it out-loud I buckled over in laughter.

Edited May 16 by pubic_assistance
grammar

[+ sync]

6 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Really ? She always looked like an ugly dude in a dress to me. So when Joan said it out-loud I buckled over in laughter.

I'm generally resistant to putting down other peoples physical appearances, but I have always felt that way about Melania Trump.  She gives me the creeps.

[CuriousByNature]

1 hour ago, sync said:

I'm generally resistant to putting down other peoples physical appearances, but I have always felt that way about Melania Trump.  She gives me the creeps.

[pubic_assistance]

2 hours ago, sync said:

I have always felt that way about Melania Trump.  She gives me the creeps.

I never thought she was any great beauty..but now that she's 55 years old, I'd have to say whatever she's doing is working. She looks good for her age.

 

[d.anders]

On 5/15/2025 at 5:33 PM, ApexNomad said:

Don Rickles was called a legend. Joan was called mean. The difference? Joan was a woman.

I'm not so convinced it's as simple as that. Yes, misogyny exists, but Joan always had an angry edge. It got much worse as she aged. Not unexpected when your mother calls you "ugly" from an early age. Joan had some serious baggage, and then she turned her face into a handbag.

[+ ApexNomad]

25 minutes ago, d.anders said:

I'm not so convinced it's as simple as that. Yes, misogyny exists, but Joan always had an angry edge. It got much worse as she aged. Not unexpected when your mother calls you "ugly" from an early age. Joan had some serious baggage, and then she turned her face into a handbag.

Interesting how a woman trying to survive in a brutal, youth-obsessed, male-dominated industry gets reduced to a “handbag” for daring to age under the spotlight. Joan’s face didn’t offend people—her refusal to disappear did. It’s not the surgery that made people uncomfortable. It’s that she owned it, joked about it, and made it impossible to ignore the double standard. Men age into “character.” Women get called grotesque.

And yet, for all that so-called baggage, Joan built a career in a system designed to silence her. She turned pain into punchlines. Some called it abrasive—others called it truth. Men are called fearless for doing the same. It’s easy to pick apart a woman’s edge. It’s harder to admit the world is what sharpened it.

[hungry4darkmeat]

Joan was an international treasure! I found her comedy records in the 80s and loved her ever since. I met her many times at the Duplex where she would test out her new material as well as being a regular audience member for her daytime show.

sure she was offensive and sometimes annoying- but she was also a wonderful person and that apartment is fucking GRAND and LEGENDARY! It was the perfect city palace for a diva of her caliber. Remember along with Arsenio Hall she was instrumental in introducing the world to many creative elements of gay culture that otherwise would have gone uncovered by the mainstream media.

[+ nycman]

12 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

It’s easy to pick apart a woman’s edge. It’s harder to admit the world is what sharpened it.

Beautifully written. 

[+ Lucky]

No comedian has had me laughing as hard as Joan did when I saw her live show.

[d.anders]

14 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

Joan’s face didn’t offend people

I disagree with that. Much like Michael Jackson, at a certain point the cosmetic surgery went too far, and hers became a punchline within the industry. People who like to see successful people fall and be ridiculed had a field day, especially the folks who disliked her "hate" humor. Madonna's recent facelift had a similar effect on the industry.

14 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

It’s not the surgery that made people uncomfortable.

Cosmetic surgery is now mainstream in America. People recognize its ability to work magic, especially on severe cases. However, in show business, if you cross the threshold of what people call and consider "normal," into the realm of "alien," it can have a devastating effect on public perception, and it can fuel the gossip mill.

15 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

Men age into “character.” Women get called grotesque.

.Not all men age well, or grow into a handsome "character." Oftentimes, male celebrities who engage in cosmetic surgery find their careers over. The only women who get called "grotesque" are the women who go too far and become grotesque. There are countless examples of female cosmetic surgery that gets labeled as "success." The number of cases that fall into the "grotesque" category are quite small, but they tend to really stand out in the crowd.

[+ ApexNomad]

9 hours ago, d.anders said:

I disagree with that. Much like Michael Jackson, at a certain point the cosmetic surgery went too far, and hers became a punchline within the industry. People who like to see successful people fall and be ridiculed had a field day, especially the folks who disliked her "hate" humor. Madonna's recent facelift had a similar effect on the industry.

Cosmetic surgery is now mainstream in America. People recognize its ability to work magic, especially on severe cases. However, in show business, if you cross the threshold of what people call and consider "normal," into the realm of "alien," it can have a devastating effect on public perception, and it can fuel the gossip mill.

.Not all men age well, or grow into a handsome "character." Oftentimes, male celebrities who engage in cosmetic surgery find their careers over. The only women who get called "grotesque" are the women who go too far and become grotesque. There are countless examples of female cosmetic surgery that gets labeled as "success." The number of cases that fall into the "grotesque" category are quite small, but they tend to really stand out in the crowd.

Yes, people can go “too far” with cosmetic surgery in the public eye, and yes, Joan became a punchline to some—but that’s exactly the point. When a man ages, he’s allowed to become “distinguished,” “weathered,” or “a character.” When a woman does anything to navigate aging—whether she ages naturally or chooses surgery—she’s often mocked, dissected, or erased.

Joan didn’t pretend the surgery didn’t happen. She turned it into material. She took the thing that people used to tear her down and beat them to the punch with it. That’s power. That’s survival.

To say “only the ones who go too far get called grotesque” ignores who gets to define “too far.” Those judgments are rarely neutral. They’re steeped in gender bias, ageism, and the ever-moving goalposts of beauty. The same surgery that’s called “empowering” on one woman gets called “desperate” on another, depending on how likable, quiet, or compliant she is.

Joan never played by those rules. She dared to be loud, opinionated, and unapologetically visible in a culture that punishes women for all three. That’s not just cosmetic—that’s radical.

[Luv2play]

9 hours ago, d.anders said:

I disagree with that. Much like Michael Jackson, at a certain point the cosmetic surgery went too far, and hers became a punchline within the industry. People who like to see successful people fall and be ridiculed had a field day, especially the folks who disliked her "hate" humor. Madonna's recent facelift had a similar effect on the industry.

Cosmetic surgery is now mainstream in America. People recognize its ability to work magic, especially on severe cases. However, in show business, if you cross the threshold of what people call and consider "normal," into the realm of "alien," it can have a devastating effect on public perception, and it can fuel the gossip mill.

.Not all men age well, or grow into a handsome "character." Oftentimes, male celebrities who engage in cosmetic surgery find their careers over. The only women who get called "grotesque" are the women who go too far and become grotesque. There are countless examples of female cosmetic surgery that gets labeled as "success." The number of cases that fall into the "grotesque" category are quite small, but they tend to really stand out in the crowd.

I’m belatedly reading “Marilyn” the coffee table book written by Norman Mailer with exquisite photos of the sex goddess throughout her brief life. 
 

I was surprised to read she had two corrective cosmetic surgeries to her face, one to narrow her nostrils and the other to eliminate a slight point in her chin. They didn’t alter her appearance by much but created the “ perfect” face that America grew to know when she became a famous movie actress. 
 

Of course one is left to wonder what she would have done had she lived another 40 or so years. When she died the photos of her taken at the mortuary were published, if you can imagine the lack of dignity, and they were not a pretty sight. 

[d.anders]

15 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

When a man ages, he’s allowed to become “distinguished,” “weathered,” or “a character.” When a woman does anything to navigate aging—whether she ages naturally or chooses surgery—she’s often mocked, dissected, or erased.

That sounds very 1970's to me. More and more men are having cosmetic surgery these days. The desire to look younger, especially around the eyes, invites all genders. Those in the public eye must endure more scrutiny for sure. But given how narcissistic our society is now, these vanity issues are very commonplace.

15 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

Joan didn’t pretend the surgery didn’t happen. She turned it into material. She took the thing that people used to tear her down and beat them to the punch with it. That’s power. That’s survival.

If Joan was anything, she was indeed a survivor. Her story is intense. A ton of pain.

15 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

who gets to define “too far.” Those judgments are rarely neutral.

Much like a movie, or a single performance, it often boils down to a simple thumbs-up or thumbs down. When Joan took her hate comedy to the Red Carpet, pretending to be some fashion authority when she was not, and criticizing her show business brethren, many saw that as a last straw, low blow. Public career choices on top of the surgeries turned her into an easy punching bag.

15 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

Joan never played by those rules. She dared to be loud, opinionated, and unapologetically visible in a culture that punishes women for all three.

She always made it very clear, she wanted money. More money. She defined her life by working and making money. When money is the ultimate goal, there is no quitting. Joan had strong motivation to fight back, no matter how badly the surgery criticism got.

Edited May 18 by d.anders

[+ ApexNomad]

12 minutes ago, d.anders said:

That sounds very 1970's to me. More and more men are having cosmetic surgery these days. The desire to look younger, especially around the eyes, invites all genders. Those in the public eye must endure more scrutiny for sure. But given how narcissistic our society is now, these vanity issues are very commonplace.

If Joan was anything, she was indeed a survivor. Her story is intense. A ton of pain.

Much like a movie, or a single performance, it often boils down to a simple thumbs-up or thumbs down. When Joan took her hate comedy to the Red Carpet, pretending to be some fashion authority when she was not, and criticizing her show business brethren, many saw that as a last straw, low blow. Public career choices on top of the surgeries turned her into an easy punching bag.

She always made it very clear, she wanted money. More money. She defined her life by working and making money. When money is the ultimate goal, there is no quitting. Joan had strong motivation to fight back, no matter how badly the surgery criticism got.

My point is about double standards, not surgery. The cultural framing around aging remains unequal. An older man is often seen as wise, sexy, or “distinguished,” while an older woman—especially one who shows visible signs of age—is more likely to be dismissed, scrutinized, or mocked.

The rise in cosmetic surgery among men doesn’t erase that double standard—it highlights how intense and widespread the pressure to appear youthful has become. But even as more men experience that pressure, the burden still falls disproportionately on women.

“Very 1970s” is dismissive. Sexism around aging is alive and well in 2025. Just look at how female celebrities over 40 are treated compared to their male counterparts—on red carpets, in casting, and in media coverage. The disparity is still glaring.

[d.anders]

2 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

The disparity is still glaring.

With growing narcissism, it will only get worse.

Not sure what to say about double standards. Will anyone ever be treated equally?

2 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

Just look at how female celebrities over 40 are treated compared to their male counterparts

Hollywood is mostly run by immature older men who love their young-girl fantasies. Good luck changing that.

[d.anders]

On 5/18/2025 at 10:34 AM, ApexNomad said:

My point is about double standards

I'm not entirely convinced a double standard on cosmetic surgery exists anymore. We simply have not had a male version of Joan Rivers.

I was thinking, if Mickey Rourke had been a similar comic, he would have taken similar heat. Even without comedy, he took a lot of bashing in the press because of what he did to his once handsome face. His career definitely ended among casting directors.

The show business industry and the public know when someone "goes too far." It becomes a lot harder to find jobs and maintain respect. There is a growing list of samples where this is quite the case. Madonna is not going to go broke anytime soon, but there was a media shitstorm over her most recent facelift. It got so bad, she felt the need to publicly lash back. The world has its way of telling you that something isn't quite right.

OTOH, no one has had more cosmetic surgery than Jane Fonda, and I've never heard much ridicule for "going too far."

Even at (almost 85), she's looking good enough to be cast again.

 

 

Edited May 19 by d.anders

[+ ApexNomad]

1 hour ago, d.anders said:

I'm not entirely convinced a double standard on cosmetic surgery exists anymore. We simply have not had a male version of Joan Rivers.

I was thinking, if Mickey Rourke had been a similar comic, he would have taken similar heat. Even without comedy, he took a lot of bashing in the press because of what he did to his once handsome face. His career definitely ended among casting directors.

The show business industry and the public know when someone "goes too far." It becomes a lot harder to find jobs and maintain respect. There is a growing list of samples where this is quite the case. Madonna is not going to go broke anytime soon, but there was a media shitstorm over her most recent facelift. It got so bad, she felt the need to publicly lash back. The world has its way of telling you that something isn't quite right.

OTOH, no one has had more cosmetic surgery than Jane Fonda, and I've never heard much ridicule for "going too far."

Even at (almost 85), she's looking good enough to be cast again.

 

 

I agree that public figures of any gender can face criticism when their cosmetic surgery is perceived as “too much.” But I still believe the scrutiny is not applied evenly, especially when it comes to aging itself.

The conversation isn’t just about who gets “called out” for surgery—it’s about the why and how behind that scrutiny. Again, when a man ages naturally, he’s often praised for looking “rugged,” “wise,” or “distinguished.” When a woman does the same, she’s more likely to be called “brave” or even seen as “letting herself go.” Pamela Anderson not wearing any make up on red carpets has made more headlines than peace talks. If she opts for surgery, the judgment can be even more vicious—often framed around desperation or vanity. That’s the double bind.

You mentioned Jane Fonda—she’s also spent decades being upfront about her surgeries and her own internalized ageism, and even she has said she regrets some of the choices she made to stay “camera ready.” Meanwhile, someone like Paul Newman aged into roles with grace and gravitas and was never expected to justify his wrinkles.

So while I agree that men face more pressure now than before, the societal baseline is still uneven.

One gender is taught their value increases with age. The other is taught it fades.

[d.anders]

1 hour ago, ApexNomad said:

I still believe the scrutiny is not applied evenly

It can never be even because in our society and culture, women are permitted to wear much more make-up than men. This is not an even playing field when it comes to beauty.

Men are indeed allowed to age more gracefully, primarily because the male aging process is perceived to produce masculine results. When women age, they tend to lose that ultra-soft, firm beauty that youth provides. Sadly, gravity is less kind to a woman, and if she wants to fix that safely, she needs a lot of money and good recommendations.

[+ ApexNomad]

57 minutes ago, d.anders said:

It can never be even because in our society and culture, women are permitted to wear much more make-up than men. This is not an even playing field when it comes to beauty.

Men are indeed allowed to age more gracefully, primarily because the male aging process is perceived to produce masculine results. When women age, they tend to lose that ultra-soft, firm beauty that youth provides. Sadly, gravity is less kind to a woman, and if she wants to fix that safely, she needs a lot of money and good recommendations.

This kind of response packs in a lot of gender essentialism and casually reinforces the very double standards I’m calling out.

Saying that “gravity is less kind to women” or that male aging “produces masculine results” isn’t objective truth—it’s cultural bias dressed up as biology. These are narratives we’ve absorbed, not immutable facts.

And yes, women may have more freedom to wear makeup—but that “freedom” comes with expectation. The beauty industry didn’t grow into a multi-billion-dollar machine because women are less pressured to look a certain way. Quite the opposite.

So when we talk about aging and appearance, we’re not on a level playing field. The standards are still different, the judgments still harsher, and the room for error—especially in the public eye—still much smaller for women.

[d.anders]

"In ten years of painting, not one friend has ever asked me for a picture."

LOL.

 

[pubic_assistance]

17 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

women may have more freedom to wear makeup—

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

The only Hollywood Stars episodes worth watching were when Paul Lynde or Joan Rivers were featured.  Rest in Peace, our beloved talented comedians.