Thoughts on deposits

[Monarchy79]

On 3/26/2024 at 1:51 AM, APPLE1 said:

I feel like flaking for something better, is directly linked to ALL XY chromosomes!

It is…. But it’s a bit different for homosexual men, because dick and ass is always available. Which is why so many gay men flake out on each other… in one scenario, a gay man can be wavering between a hookup on a app, a bar/nightclub, the gym, sex party/orgy, hiring a masseur or an escort, or even public cruising. He’s always flaking for something better, because the likelihood of something better is actually possible. 
 

For a straight man, he doesn’t have many easy options for women. And many options can burn his pockets, as your average woman isn’t simply down for easy sex, especially because of the culturally imposed norms regarding a woman’s “virtue”. If he wavers for too long, he can wind up stuck with blue balls, or entertaining a lot lizard/crack whore…. LOL. 
 

[Jarrod_Uncut]

On 3/30/2024 at 6:47 PM, DWnyc said:

Without seeing / hearing the whole conversation I don’t see what is a lie here.

”I want to book something” isn’t a lie if I don’t end up booking.

”Yes I promise I’ll be there at 2pm on Sunday with a donation of X for Y hours of your time” and then they don’t show up or do but don’t have the donation or expect more than that time - that’s a lie. 

 

Are you saying the only outcome from contact should be setting up an agreement to meet at a certain time and place for specific terms?

If so your expectations from sales outreach are unrealistic. 
 

 

I know I use this term often around here: but that gaslighting term comes up again. You can’t gaslight my experiences, and then reference sales data to back it up. It’s not exactly the same, but I get where you are coming from.
 

I know the difference between a client who hasn’t bothered to read an ad, but contacts for a session and then doesn’t want to comply with anything…such as deposits. Or reasonable notice. I have seen the same clients who were dismissive, come around again and try to rebook only to do it again. And more often than not it’s the exact type of people I mentioned earlier. 

I think @Monarchy79 described it pretty accurately, even though we have differing opinions at times. Many gay guys are streaming multiple options, including the free route. I’m always grateful when someone does go my route.

 

On 3/30/2024 at 1:15 PM, maninsoma said:

I'm sure there are time wasters out there who love contact escorts that they know they aren't going to hire, but I doubt there are that many game players.  In other words, I think most men who contact escorts want to hire them, but just because they made contact doesn't mean that seals the deal.  I would suggest that if an escort is being contacted by a lot of people who end up not booking that that escort should reflect on various aspects of his business practice to determine why prospective clients end up taking their business elsewhere.  If an initial contact doesn't enhance the excitement about the prospective meeting or, worse yet, makes the prospective client leery about hiring the escort, then the escort isn't doing a good job of marketing himself.

I think you’re inserting fear tactic where it’s not necessarily needed. You assume the escort is the fault if people aren’t following thru properly. I know that’s easy to do, but you have to think a bit more critically and actually ask the ones who are doing this…what the actual facts are.

Remember that thread I made about longer sessions? This was in a city that is KNOWN for clients to be consistently flaky. I basically went to the area for that 1 client only, because the amount he was willing to pay. Any other time, I would not dare stop in that town EVER, without a client Pre-booked (city I refer to is Indianapolis btw). I know how they are.

Before and while I was there, I had several messages from guys on RM/RMASS who didn’t book. Only 2 showed up, but it was worth the trip. Marketing isn’t always the deal sealer. 
 

I’ll even go further to say: most places in America just aren’t good for the biz. Think about it: ANY GAY MEN HERE LOOKING TO GET PAID OR PAY FOR SEX TODAY? Say that aloud in public and see what happens. And then see how it compares to “sales data”. Yes, sex sells and all but we’re up against a force of nature bigger than just “marketing”. Then add living or marketing in places were the men are cheap, or racist, or family/church oriented…you can’t blame that on the escort. The way people act, is a product of their environment. And the clients come to us with that same mentality. Then somehow it’s our marketing at fault. Hmm 🤔 how does that work.

Some places are more time wasters than others. I have long learned I have to be strategic to where I go. I don’t go to places based on lots of other guys advertising. Other guy’s choice of location or definition of success (some people may only need 2-3 clients a month only, I’m not). 

 

People not in the business, often think that’s always the solution, “go to Miami, go to Los Angeles, go to New York.” Yeah, but that all costs money, and you have to market platinum boost ($24/day) and “available now” constantly to get noticed. And the bigger the city, sometimes the more flakes and even competition trying to stall your business.
 

The state I live in, there’s only a couple cities where one can regularly get clients: Kansas City and St. Louis. And they both have sucked (pun intended) lately. At this point, I’m where I don’t even want to work in my home state anymore because nobody is booking. I have my select regulars, but there’s been hardly any new clients. I even had one the other week send me $20 consultation, then the next day when we were scheduled, he wasn’t answering his messages. 

 

That’s why in cases like this, best course of action is usually to leave for a couple years and only go back to visit when necessary. But travel for a month or 2 helps too. Sometimes it doesn’t matter how good your marketing is. If the guys in an area don’t want to pay and/or can’t afford it: It won’t make a difference.

 

Edited April 1 by Jarrod_Uncut

[Trick]

19 minutes ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

I know I use this term often around here: but that gaslighting term comes up again. You can’t gaslight my experiences, and then reference sales data to back it up. It’s not exactly the same, but I get where you are coming from.
 

I know the difference between a client who hasn’t bothered to read an ad, but contacts for a session and then doesn’t want to comply with anything…such as deposits. Or reasonable notice. I have seen the same clients who were dismissive, come around again and try to rebook only to do it again. And more often than not it’s the exact type of people I mentioned earlier. 

I think @Monarchy79 described it pretty accurately, even though we have differing opinions at times. Many gay guys are streaming multiple options, including the free route. I’m always grateful when someone does go my route.

 

I think you’re inserting fear tactic where it’s not necessarily needed. You assume the escort is the fault if people aren’t following thru properly. I know that’s easy to do, but you have to think a bit more critically and actually ask the ones who are doing this…what the actual facts are.

Remember that thread I made about longer sessions? This was in a city that is KNOWN for clients to be consistently flaky. I basically went to the area for that 1 client only, because the amount he was willing to pay. Any other time, I would not dare stop in that town EVER, without a client Pre-booked (city I refer to is Indianapolis btw). I know how they are.

Before and while I was there, I had several messages from guys on RM/RMASS who didn’t book. Only 2 showed up, but it was worth the trip. Marketing isn’t always the deal sealer. 
 

I’ll even go further to say: most places in America just aren’t good for the biz. Think about it: ANY GAY MEN HERE LOOKING TO GET PAID OR PAY FOR SEX TODAY? Say that aloud in public and see what happens. And then see how it compares to “sales data”. Yes, sex sells and all but we’re up against a force of nature bigger than just “marketing”. Then add living or marketing in places were the men are cheap, or racist, or family/church oriented…you can’t blame that on the escort. The way people act, is a product of their environment. And the clients come to us with that same mentality. Then somehow it’s our marketing at fault. Hmm 🤔 how does that work.

Some places are more time wasters than others. I have long learned I have to be strategic to where I go. I don’t go to places based on lots of other guys advertising. Other guy’s choice of location or definition of success (some people may only need 2-3 clients a month only, I’m not). 

 

People not in the business, often think that’s always the solution, “go to Miami, go to Los Angeles, go to New York.” Yeah, but that all costs money, and you have to market platinum boost ($24/day) and “available now” constantly to get noticed. And the bigger the city, sometimes the more flakes and even competition trying to stall your business.
 

The state I live in, there’s only a couple cities where one can regularly get clients: Kansas City and St. Louis. And they both have sucked (pun intended) lately. At this point, I’m where I don’t even want to work in my home state anymore because nobody is booking. I have my select regulars, but there’s been hardly any new clients. I even had one the other week send me $20 consultation, then the next day when we were scheduled, he wasn’t even answering his messages. 

 

That’s why I’m over it. Times like this I usually need to travel for a month or 2 and get into some new markets. Sometimes it don’t matter how good your marketing is, if the guys in an area don’t want to pay and/or can’t afford it: it won’t help.

 

Why don’t you just do what you want to do?  Why bother presenting your business model here? Are you trying to convince us to agree to it?

[MikeBiDude]

1 hour ago, Trick said:

Why don’t you just do what you want to do?  Why bother presenting your business model here? Are you trying to convince us to agree to it?

I think @Jarrod_Uncut sometimes feels he’s “educating” us. Unfortunately my feeling is that this forum represents a fairly sophisticated and experienced client base. Not sure a lot of minds are going to get educated/changed here. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Trick]

41 minutes ago, MikeBiDude said:

I think @Jarrod_Uncut sometimes feels he’s “educating” us. Unfortunately my feeling is that this forum represents a fairly sophisticated and experienced client base. Not sure a lot of minds are going to get educated/changed here. 🤷🏻‍♂️

It’s not about having a sophisticated and experienced client base here and out there.  It about having a diverse community.  Jarrod seems to think that his business model is the only one that works.  

[+ nycman]

59 minutes ago, MikeBiDude said:

I think @Jarrod_Uncut sometimes feels he’s “educating” us.

[Jarrod_Uncut]

1 hour ago, MikeBiDude said:

I think @Jarrod_Uncut sometimes feels he’s “educating” us. Unfortunately my feeling is that this forum represents a fairly sophisticated and experienced client base. Not sure a lot of minds are going to get educated/changed here. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I’m not interested in educating anyone who doesn’t want to. I’m responding to a question someone asked me. If someone is educated in the process, great. If not…they can receive it however they wish. 

[Jarrod_Uncut]

3 hours ago, Trick said:

Why don’t you just do what you want to do?  Why bother presenting your business model here? Are you trying to convince us to agree to it?

I am doing what I do. The reason I’m presenting it, is because it’s the topic of the discussion. As I told someone else, a couple people asked questions or made statements and I responded. What’s wrong with that? 
 

Whether you/y’all agree or not is irrelevant. But if someone is going to make statements, be prepared to get a response. 
 

And if anything, YOU were the one trying to convince everyone not to pay deposits. Now if everyone just wants to make it a discussion about good client/bad escort…and then throw in reasons why clients flake on escorts, someone can make a topic on that. 
 

But if we are going to talk about deposits, talk about deposits 🤷🏾‍♂️ 

[+ APPLE1]

To agree with @Monarchy79 it's important to actually pay attention to what he said, and what he didn't say.

21 hours ago, Monarchy79 said:

He’s always flaking for something better, because the likelihood of something better is actually possible. 

He made a distinction between scenarios where men seek dick and ass, and scenarios where men seek pussy. He didn't say only CLIENTS flake. The providers we're discussing here, as a general rule, are still falling into the first scenario. Therefore, it holds true that many of them are just as likely to flake because something better comes along - more money, hotter client, multi-hour appt, etc.

And really the heart of the matter is that only a provider is likely garaunteed a bennifit when a deposit is sent. A provider gets at least some money when a client flakes or lies. If a client pays a deposit they aren't guaranteed anything. No garauntee that the provider  reserved a slot, the provider was honest with pics and stats, the provider is sober, the provider can/will do the planned activities, etc.

I suppose we can say a client is guaranteed a hassle if they use a service that allows them to dispute the charge.

Edited April 1 by APPLE1
Typo

[Monarchy79]

At the end of the day, the deposit issue is a bit of a gamble for both the provider and the client.

For the provider, the deposit gives a form of “insurance”, increasing the likelihood that the potential client WON’T flake.

For the client, the deposit, gives a form of “liability”, increasing the likelihood that the potential provider WILL flake. 

The provider’s time is precious, and the client’s money is precious, and both are trying to ensure they don’t waste either. 

However, if a potential client flakes on a provider, that provider can recoup the time wasted by booking someone else, or revising his schedule. 

if a potential provider flakes on a client, takes his deposit and disappears, his financial loss is pretty much set, and he can’t recoup his loss. 
 

 

[Jarrod_Uncut]

3 hours ago, Monarchy79 said:

At the end of the day, the deposit issue is a bit of a gamble for both the provider and the client.

Right, but Las Vegas likely didn’t become popular because people were scared to put in a little money to gamble 🤔 

Now, the only difference in the client versus escort gamble: a client losing $50-$100 on a deposit isn’t going to “take food out of their mouth”. That’s their discretionary play money. Their loss is still a loss, but it’s not in the same level of risk.

Years ago when I didn’t know any better, I traveled to Las Vegas from Denver for the first time: thinking I would find tons of clients. Nope. Spent two days on hotels, went without a deposit, and almost ran out of gas on the way back in the middle of the desert. That’s not a gamble to take lightly. 

 

3 hours ago, APPLE1 said:

To agree with @Monarchy79 it's important to actually pay attention to what he said, and what he didn't say.

He made a distinction between scenarios where men seek dick and ass, and scenarios where men seek pussy. He didn't say only CLIENTS flake. The providers we're discussing here, as a general rule, are still falling into the first scenario. Therefore, it holds true that many of them are just as likely to flake because something better comes along - more money, hotter client, multi-hour appt, etc.

And really the heart of the matter is that only a provider is likely garaunteed a bennifit when a deposit is sent. A provider gets at least some money when a client flakes or lies. If a client pays a deposit they aren't guaranteed anything. No garauntee that the provider  reserved a slot, the provider was honest with pics and stats, the provider is sober, the provider can/will do the planned activities, etc.

I suppose we can say a client is guaranteed a hassle if they use a service that allows them to dispute the charge.

There’s no guarantee to anything with or without a deposit. In fact, meeting a stranger for sex is risky in itself but guess what: you still have to screen, still have to use common sense, etc. A deposit is a very small layer of risk compared to the bigger picture: you’re meeting someone new AND it’s money involved. Whether that money is cash or a phone apps. In fact, I think many clients have become more agreeable to phone app payments since it’s overall safer than just carrying cash. 

Also you’re both right it’s not just clients. Sometimes I find the cities with the flakiest clients, tend to also have the flakiest gay scenes in general. This weekend I was trying to get 3 different guys I know to meet: 2 I hooked up with once, the other just a (now) platonic friend (we started off as a hookup, but it didn’t work out so we been “trying” a friendship).

Only 1 of the guys managed to meet, and it seemed like I was begging him…keeping in touch, trying to come up with a time and plan to meet. The other 2, in their own world.

And this morning I was trying to get a repeat client to come over to my hotel since I was hosting. Even though it was short notice and I reached out to him first, he claimed to only be 12 minutes away, but then after a few messages he changed his mind saying he would not have enough time. 
 

I feel many gay guys operate under a “only when I want it and when it’s convenient for me” way. People can argue, “I don’t think he means to waste your time”. Bullshit. These people know exactly what they’re doing. And it’s especially bad I believe, for Black gay men, as many articles on a simple google search will reveal. No matter how much people want to deny it, or sweep it under the rug like it doesn’t exist. 

But hearing it from others, goes to show it can happen to anyone in this lifestyle. And not getting paid for a 3 day session is nothing short of robbery. 

 

Edited April 1 by Jarrod_Uncut

[Trick]

1 hour ago, Monarchy79 said:

if a potential provider flakes on a client, takes his deposit and disappears, his financial loss is pretty much set, and he can’t recoup his loss. 
 

 

That’s why I will never send a deposit.  NEVER!  I’m a trustworthy person and am lucky to find providers who trust me enough not to flake on them.

Here’s how much I respect providers.  I couldn’t make it to an appointment because something came up.  I arranged to meet the provider at a later time to hand him his donation.  Since he was about to check out, we didn’t even have a session.  I didn’t expect one.  I went there to make up for the revenue he lost with my canceled appointment.

Edited April 1 by Trick

[56harrisond]

7 minutes ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

There’s no guarantee to anything with or without a deposit. In fact, meeting a stranger for sex is risky in itself but guess what: you still have to screen, still have to use common sense, etc. A deposit is a very small layer of risk compared to the bigger picture: you’re meeting someone new AND it’s money involved.

And I've decided to minimize my risk by a) screening potential providers the best I can, and b) not sending a deposit to someone I've never met in person.

[+ APPLE1]

12 minutes ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

There’s no guarantee to anything with or without a deposit.

But there is a guarantee for a provider to get cash with a deposit, right? If not, why would you ask for a deposit?

Edited April 1 by APPLE1
Typo

[Jarrod_Uncut]

27 minutes ago, Trick said:

That’s why I will never send a deposit.  NEVER!  I’m a trustworthy person and am lucky to find providers who trust me enough not to flake on them.

Here’s how much I respect providers.  I couldn’t make it to an appointment because something came up.  I arranged to meet the provider at a later time to hand him his donation.  Since he was about to check out, we didn’t even have a session.  I didn’t expect one.  I went there to make up for the revenue he lost with my canceled appointment.

That’s great, but thing is: most clients who flake, don’t do that. If RentMen and others, made every client click a checkbox disclaimer saying “you agree to still pay the provider’s fee if you cancel the appointment” in the phone number section, I would not have to charge deposits. No brainer 🤷🏾‍♂️ 

Edited April 1 by Jarrod_Uncut

[Jarrod_Uncut]

7 minutes ago, APPLE1 said:

But there is a guarantee for a provider to get cash with a deposit, right? If not, why would you ask for a deposit?

Not always. People have sent deposits and not shown up. Rare, but happens. If I use that deposit towards something that costs like a hotel or travel, it could still be not much earned.

I much rather have the full session, than a relatively small deposit. 

[+ APPLE1]

So, where is the "not always?"

[DWnyc]

9 hours ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

I know I use this term often around here: but that gaslighting term comes up again. You can’t gaslight my experiences, and then reference sales data to back it up. It’s not exactly the same, but I get where you are coming from.

Well I’m glad you get where I’m coming from because I’m not gaslighting you (and im not gaslighting you by saying I’m not gas … sorry couldn’t resist)

Ill take it further. You can’t blame potential clients for not reading or understanding whatever instructions you have in your ad. Or rather you have to expect it will happen. It’s not like an entrance exam to an elite private school where they shouldn’t be allowed a conversation with one lapse in your preferred methods. And the easier you make it for them they may veer toward a hire. 

[DWnyc]

Re evolving industries and technologies, the apps etc.  - We’ve hashed this out before - but now many independent bookstores do you see today, and where are the Barnes and Nobles that put those guys out of business 30 years ago?

Who under the age of 40 owns a Cd player? Or consults a travel agent. Or goes to develop film. And so on. 

And wait till AI really hits the masses. All of you providers who complain about potential clients seeking free sexting will find you may have a lot more spare time very soon given the potential for new porn / sex apps already available. What you may really notice is the loss of a funnel for potential clients unless a replacement comes on stream.

 

[Jarrod_Uncut]

17 hours ago, APPLE1 said:

So, where is the "not always?"

What others are saying elsewhere (names edited):

 

 

[MikeBiDude]

27 minutes ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

What others are saying elsewhere (names edited):

 

 

Is this from a predominantly female sex worker discussion group?

[+ APPLE1]

That does not answer my question. I said want to deposit is made a provider always ends up with cash in their hand. You replied with "not always."

I'm still waiting for for an explanation about how  a provider doesn't end up with cash in their hand once a client makes a deposit.

 

[Jarrod_Uncut]

3 hours ago, MikeBiDude said:

Is this from a predominantly female sex worker discussion group?

Yes, but trust and believe it’s no different than what male escorts deal with. It’s been proven based on the original poster and what others like myself, have stated.

 

2 hours ago, APPLE1 said:

That does not answer my question. I said want to deposit is made a provider always ends up with cash in their hand. You replied with "not always."

I'm still waiting for for an explanation about how  a provider doesn't end up with cash in their hand once a client makes a deposit.

 

You’re looking at in a “escort receives some cash, therefore makes a profit” view.  What I’m telling you is: a deposit is not necessarily a profit. For example, if I take a deposit and then spend my own money to reserve a hotel or drive to someplace far away and the client cancels: where’s the profit in that? It’s not. I broke even, and didn’t make any profit at best. Lost more than what the deposit was worth, at worst.

When I get a deposit, that is only towards the costs and time of getting ready for the session. That could include anything, from renting hotel, outcall time/travel (as I’ve stated before, not all of us live in San Francisco where clients may be a block away…my commute can be an hour away or longer). 

A deposit is not a spending spree for me, by any means. It’s received but it’s not in the way you think: “oh I made money”. Even when I’m in close range of the city while traveling and already set up in a hotel: I can’t have clients jerking me around (no pun intended) and not being serious because I may have plans with friends, and how embarrassing to tell or cancel plans with friends, only for the client to cancel too.

So I still have to get a deposit even when I’m “Available now”.

 

 

Edited April 1 by Jarrod_Uncut

[+ DrownedBoy]

18 hours ago, DWnyc said:

And wait till AI really hits the masses. All of you providers who complain about potential clients seeking free sexting will find you may have a lot more spare time very soon given the potential for new porn / sex apps already available. What you may really notice is the loss of a funnel for potential clients unless a replacement comes on stream.

 

I'm not convinced the male sex drive needs a "funnel" to seek out real men. Unfortunately, actual physical contact is one thing AI won't be able to provide for a loooooong time.

(and when it does, there goes not only escorting, but probably dating, marriage, etc.)

[MikeBiDude]

34 minutes ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

Yes, but trust and believe it’s no different than what male escorts deal with. It’s been proven based on the original poster and what others like myself, have stated.

We can agree to disagree on this, my experience is that female providers are a very different paradigm than males. If nothing else females command far different rates.