Party N Play (PNP)

[MikeThomas]

I’m betting that when I wake up tomorrow morning this thread will be locked by the moderator.

[blck37]

29 minutes ago, DWnyc said:

I fully support every provider’s and every client’s right to their views on this subject and without getting into legal issues, also their right to live their lives as they choose (if not harming others).

However as with condom use vs bareback I think there is a lot of naivety (not meant offensively) on part of some, and some unnecessary virtue signaling from others regarding what has become vastly normalized in “the real world”. Im absolutely not refering to the OP or anyone in this thread specifically / personally.
 

however I would be very surprised if a far greater proportion of providers than many here believe weren’t regular PnP-ers (said without any judgement but also without condoning this either). So if it’s a binary decision where one choice is disgust and “I won’t go near anyone who indulges in that stuff” (even if not offered in an ad or privately in person) - the acceptable pool of providers may be smaller than many here believe. 

Those of us in finance, law, creative arts etc will likely know many high performing colleagues and friends who we also know to be regular users - some are high-performing and others are not. The provider space is likely no different - and there are structural reasons why prevalence could actually be much higher. 

My point here is really - don’t kid yourself that this is just a small minority of fringe providers (or for that matter clients) indulging. And hang out in any gay venue on a Friday or Saturday night, or scroll through the online hookup sites with your eyes wide open if you want to refresh your estimates of usage. 

Very well put, couldnt agree more

[+ sam.fitzpatrick]

13 hours ago, ICTJOCK said:

 The comment from the proposed client was that I would be "missing out" on a profitable time.

Any time I hear this line in my professional world from a client or vendor, my "spidey-senses" start tingling and  I know there will be problems.  It simply reinforces that my initial decision to say "no" was correct.  

[Cooper]

Administrator’s Message:

Gentlemen, Can we continue this discussion without the personal attacks? Remember, attack the issue not the person. This will be the only warning. 

[Nodalguy]

I typically am looking for PNP specifically. It's definitely possible to do it intermittently but regularly and basically be normal the vast majority of the time. These days it does feel as if it takes a bigger toll on my body than when I was in my late twenties, and I have noticed that many of the more experienced PNP providers really look kind of rundown themselves, even if they're 30yo or so.

Frankly it's so hard to find, at least for me, there's really zero risk of long term dependence. It's just not possible to get regularly enough or in sufficient quantities. And you are very unlikely to overdose on it unless you do something like ingest or bump it, where you could end up taking in much more than you would if inhaling over time and controlling it.

But the reason for using it is that it obviously that it is an experience. It does change how things feel, for the most part in a positive way. The most amazing experiences I've had sexually have been on it.

But in general, yes, I would say it's not for everyone. The most important thing if you do choose to use is to do it somewhere safe, stay hydrated, brush your teeth, and try to eat whatever you can, even though you will have zero appetite and it will be actually quite unenjoyable and a chore to take every bite.

[IamAdamRose]

Cocaine yes

 

meth a BIG NO NO for me…. Not one to judge but its just a no for me & prefer to stay away from clients who try to book me to do it

Edited August 31, 2023 by IamAdamRose

[marylander1940]

6 hours ago, big-n-tall said:

I don't judge people who are into pnp, but I don't seek out providers who list it. I had a very bad experience with a provider high on crack or meth. I don't know what it was exactly. In any case, because of this I have yet to hire anyone else who lists pnp in their ad. Whether they can handle their shit or not. I'm no longer willing to find out.

I talked about what I considered my worst experience before on the forum. So I'll give the crib notes version.

Early in my highing career, a provider I had met a few times (to which I had great to decent experiences with), called me as i was on my way to see him. He asked, "did I like to party?" Being new to all this I said yes. Thinking he meant.. like going to a party. Very naive I know.

When I got to the room, he left the door open and the room was pitch black except for the sliver of light beaming through curtains. He sat near this sliver so I could see his silhouette across the room. The room had a weird smell. Not stinky, but nothing I've ever smelled before. I heard this weird inhaling whirring sound as a light, which look like a cigarette tip, glowed. The sound it made, made me think that it was not a cigarette. I had no idea what it could have been. So I kind of ignored that it could be something harder.

During the session he wouldn't let me kiss him (he had before). He became increasingly erratic and become hyper paranoid. He started freaking me out and every time I tried to leave, he wouldn't let me. He actively blocked me, asking why am I leaving. What followed was him eventually having an episode where he was extremely manic, even crying to his mom, slobbering on the toilet, begging me not to leave him and at one point becoming comatose. I was scared to death because I thought he stopped breathing. I didn't know what to do. Should I leave... should I call an ambulance. My paranoid brain didn't help because I thought if I left and he died I could be in some series trouble. My finger prints and whatever else had to be all over the room and on his body. Did someone see me come into his room?

What was supposed to be an hour meetup ended up closer to 4. Close to the end, he suddenly became clear and coherent. So much so he asked me to take him to the bus station. He acted like what just happened didn't. I was in shock at that point. As I dropped him off, he said he had a great time, looked forward to seeing me again, and asked me to write a positive review. I made sure I never saw him again. I met him through rentboy and he still posts on rentmen from time to time.

Typical encounter with someone who's doing drugs!

Great description!

[marylander1940]

PNP =

[Jamie21]

8 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

I don’t agree.  

I’d say some people can do PNP without going down the road road to addiction & life ruining consequences.  

However, I’ve been around dozens of guys who do it “recreationally” and still have jobs, careers, family & relationships.  That said, when they’re using - the personality changes are distinct and my observations are consistent: they get agressive, mean & beyond bitchy.  It’s all about getting dick ( and there’s never enough,  maybe because of limp dick unless there’s more drugs).
If it turns into a run (more than 48 hours) then these people are no longer recognizable based on behavior & personality.

Forget the judgment & health consequences, they’re just not fun to be around.  I’ve shared houses with these types on extended vacations - an absolute nightmare.  They’ve lost friendships for sure - basically because they became super assholes

sounds like fun, right ???

That does sound like they can’t cope with it! 

[SouthOfTheBorder]

43 minutes ago, Jamie21 said:

That does sound like they can’t cope with it! 

and that is precisely the problem.  

among non-users who have friends that pnp, it’s clear that recreational users don’t see themselves or the situation accurately.  They are convinced they can “handle it”.   They lose friends because they change when using & in the days spent recovering. They start to hang out with other users as their non-user friends tire of the behavior.  There is a lot of shame attached to the use, thus the need to hide it & be secretive.  Not to mention paranoia, lack of sleep/eating - it’s actually very obvious to see when anyone is using meth.  Of course, the users don’t believe this.

for those recreational users who think can “manage it”, they compare themselves to the addicts who have lost jobs, homes, family & relationships.  Basically like comparing a burned-out building to another building on fire & somehow thinking that is ok. 

If meth use is is necessary to have exciting sex, then there’s a whole lot wrong that needs fixing.  And that doesn’t start until the use is curtailed.

It’s an insidious drug.  I’ve supported addicts in recovery through friendship & even going to CMA meetings with them.  I’ve heard all the stories in those meetings.  Only to see those same friends relapse and go through it all again. 

Meth is different than most other drugs in that it can permanently alter brain synapses, affecting speech, movement & cognitive ability.  I’ve seen the end result in formerly handsome, healthy & smart men.

All this talk about judgement, virtue signaling, etc distracts from the results of this drug use and unfortunately paints a benign picture of a deadly drug. 

btw - many of the guys in CMA meetings were providers or former providers who thought they could handle it.  Of course. 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[SouthOfTheBorder]

x

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[Jamie21]

29 minutes ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

btw - many of the guys in CMA meetings were providers or former providers who thought they could handle it.  Of course. 

Sad. Ok so an anecdote doesn’t mean it’s common…but here’s my experience of meth use. 

I’ve a provider friend who I’ve known for years. A beautiful intelligent and sexy guy. We met at a porn film shoot (an auspicious start!). We were not scheduled to film together but the director guy saw that we had connected so put us together. The shoot was as if a fireworks factory went up. 

We became friends, we saw a few clients together, did more films, had fun. Our orbits were different (I’m older, have some different interests) but as is the case in London, and in the gay scene especially, it’s a city village and we came across each other from time to time and kept in touch. 

We’d exchange helpful information on the business with each other (although my client base and modus operandi was a bit different to his). We’d also make recommendations of guys to film with (the Onlyfans collaboration circuit 😂) and share stories. There’s some experiences it’s better to talk about with another sex worker. 

Over time I became aware that he seemed to be going down a route that took in the London party scene and clients who liked PNP sessions. However he seemed to be ok with it and was having fun so I didn’t say anything.

Then one time we were chatting via text and somehow ended up booking a weekend away together, as a chill out and break. We’re both kind of impulsive like that. The plan was, relax, shoot a film, eat, sight see, do random stuff. 

On the break I noticed he’d disappear into the bathroom for ages and he seemed to be constantly awake and slightly anxious. I didn’t ask and kind of assumed he was finding it hard to wind down. Other than that it was a nice break for both of us. 

A few months later I saw him and he looked like he’d aged years. He told me he’d been doing meth, including while we were away (how didn’t I notice?). He told me he realised he was on a path to destruction so he’d signed up for a course to get clean and had cut off all contacts with the circle of friends’ who’d got him into it. He asked for my help which I was happy to do. 

His story was that at first it was fun, and he felt he could handle it. He hid the effects of it successfully and appeared ok. Then, all of a sudden it changed and he went from ok to not ok in an instant without realising it. Fortunately he got out and is ok now but it was almost too late for him. 

As I said, it’s an anecdote. It’s not a controlled academic study into the impact of PNP but I thought I’d share because I saw someone who lived a beautiful life almost destroy themselves by opening a door they  couldn’t close again. 
 

 

 

 

[Nodalguy]

18 hours ago, DrownedBoy said:

I've heard that if you PNP, you'll never enjoy normal sex again, so I've avoided it. A few puffs of cannabis are enough to help.

I don't really think this is accurate in my personal experience. I could definitely meet up with someone I'm into and have a fun time without PNP. What is True is that if things sort of align perfectly or you manage to set them up perfectly, you can have an utterly amazing experience PNPing that I think would be hard or impossible to match otherwise. The huge downside to PNP can be its impact on performance (sometimes affecting hardness, or making it very challenging or, let's say, extremely time-consuming to cum).

[nate_sf]

On 8/30/2023 at 5:00 AM, ICTJOCK said:

The comment from the proposed client was that I would be "missing out"  on a profitable time.

In my experience this kind of manipulation is part of what to expect in an appointment where PNP is involved. I don't indulge, but have from time to time agreed to an appointment where the client indulges. In these instances I've found the issue is sense of time gets lost for the client, and it's hard to end these sessions within a reasonable timeframe (let alone get paid).

[Decatur Guy]

Here's where I stand as client and this is my general routine/perspective:

I like to have a little bit of pot before the session starts and have poppers during the session (if I'm bottoming or even deep throating).

I will ask the provider if it's OK if I do poppers during the session. Usually they say yes. A few say no, and I respect that. I realize that for some people, the smell is too much even if it's not right on their nose. I won't inflict that on them if it bothers them.

If they have really large dicks, I'll usually back out of the anal part, see if they'll bottom or back out of the appointment altogether. (That's rarely happened). If the dicks are just above average or average, I can take the fuck without them. And I'll add here I skipped poppers on Andrew Justice's request once and took a medium-hard fuck from his big dick and lived to tell about it! So it's doable.

And I'll ask if it's OK if I do pot if I'm doing it during the session, and I'll offer to share. If the provider prefers I not do the pot, then I don't. Usually they join me in the pot if I do it at the start. I don't bring up pot if I'm doing it before we meet and it's put away. I don't do enough to affect basic polite behavior. I just find it relaxes me, puts me in the mood and makes my lips more attuned to a dick.

I've pretty well quit drinking. I used to keep some beer and liquor on hand to offer providers. I've quit doing that but more out of laziness and dropping the buying habit than any opposition to someone having a drink or two at the start. Plus my regular providers rarely want anything more than water. 

I offer tops Cialis if they want to take one or two when they first arrive. About half say yes. 

I don't PNP with hard drugs. I don't want to get with a provider who is doing it during the session or just beforehand. If the provider does it afterward or well before, I consider that his business, not mine. I have hired people at times who list PNP as an "into" or mention it once in their ad. I'm not 100% consistent on that. A lot depends on gut feeling, the overall vibe of ad and contact and frankly just how horny I am. If the interest seems passing or they are more of "OK if you do," there's a chance I might hire the person even though I'd rather not see the PNP on there at all. I find that straight men are more likely to want to PNP.

I've never had a truly bad incident as in things spinning out of control, but I have had a few times when the hard drug use by the provider beforehand definitely dampened the entire session. I don't rehire in those cases. I once had a regular who contacted me at my place zonked out of his mind after a bad PNP session. Because I knew him over a period of time and like him, I got him some help that day but wouldn't let him inside my place. He cleaned up his act, he apologized a few months later and we went on to several more very hot sessions before he dropped out the business.

If There's some provider who does sTuff jusT like This wiTh capiTal T's all over The place, I don'T conTacT That guy To sTarT wiTh. ThaT's jusT asking for Trouble.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Decatur Guy

[DWnyc]

On 8/30/2023 at 9:38 PM, MikeThomas said:

I’m betting that when I wake up tomorrow morning this thread will be locked by the moderator.

Just for saying that this post will likely live forever 😝

[DWnyc]

I chuckle at the irony of this discussion - which to me seems ultimately an attempt at moralizing, shaming, virtue signaling etc.

We are on a forum that exists solely because of a common interest in a hobby that is legally problematic in most of our geographies and socially frowned upon almost everywhere. And that’s before we even get to that man on man stuff that’s also apparently involved.

 

[+ José Soplanucas]

4 hours ago, DWnyc said:

I chuckle at the irony of this discussion - which to me seems ultimately an attempt at moralizing, shaming, virtue signaling etc.

+1

[SouthOfTheBorder]

20 hours ago, DWnyc said:

I chuckle at the irony of this discussion - which to me seems ultimately an attempt at moralizing, shaming, virtue signaling etc

I chuckle at the irony of your comment - which to me seems ultimately an attempt at normalizing, condoning, endorsing use of crystal meth.

comparing it to the main subject matter of this forum is a false equivalency. Hiring providers is legally problematic in only a few countries (mainly US) and the clients generally aren’t on a path of addiction and/or self-destruction.  While I’m aware of some who may have a sexual addiction, I’ve never heard of support groups or programs  for those trying to escape addiction to providers.

Contrast that with the known health crisis of crystal meth use & addiction throughout the US (and many other countries) & especially in the gay community. Go to any major US city and find multiple CMA meetings for those trying to beat their addiction.

For those who want to do it, then by all means go do it.  And I suppose that requires a certain level of self-delusion to somehow think things will be different for you.  
Btw - most meth users say they do it because they can then do things they wouldn’t normally do sober. Think about that.

Links below from New York Times re: gay meth crisis and City of New York meth fact sheet  

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/22/opinion/gay-meth-addiction.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Gay Men Are Dying From a Crisis We’re Not Talking About

https://www.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/survey/msm-crystal-meth-2023.pdf

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[BonVivant]

On 9/1/2023 at 12:05 PM, DWnyc said:

socially frowned upon almost everywhere

…and it is so even within the gay community. However porn is not. So it’s okay for two guys to get paid to do porn and to be watched (they are even lauded and applauded as hero’s) but got forbid you engage in your own version of it. 

[DWnyc]

7 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

I chuckle at the irony of your comment - which to me seems ultimately an attempt at normalizing, condoning, endorsing use of crystal meth.

comparing it to the main subject matter of this forum is a false equivalency. Hiring providers is legally problematic in only a few countries (mainly US) and the clients generally aren’t on a path of addiction and/or self-destruction.  While I’m aware of some who may have a sexual addiction, I’ve never heard of support groups or programs  for those trying to escape addiction to providers.

Contrast that with the known health crisis of crystal meth use & addiction throughout the US (and many other countries) & especially in the gay community. Go to any major US city and find multiple CMA meetings for those trying to beat their addiction.

For those who want to do it, then by all means go do it.  And I suppose that requires a certain level of self-delusion to somehow think things will be different for you.  
Btw - most meth users say they do it because they can then do things they wouldn’t normally do sober. Think about that.

Links below from New York Times re: gay meth crisis and City of New York meth fact sheet  

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/22/opinion/gay-meth-addiction.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Gay Men Are Dying From a Crisis We’re Not Talking About

https://www.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/survey/msm-crystal-meth-2023.pdf

 

With due respect, I’ve held back on my personal views and practices in this discussion to try and be more objective.

I happen to be medically trained and spend most of my volunteer time working in my geography with people (of all declared orientation) dealing with addiction and health issues from meth and other substance abuse). I’m fully aware of the potential effects on the mind and body as well beyond that on their relationships, professional lives, economic well-being etc.

However, I have not sensed much genuine compassion or concern let alone empathy on here when the subject is discussed. It is presented as a binary of a bad choice by sex obsessed deviants far removed from our daily lives where the adjudicators of good taste are somehow morally exempt from society’s verdicts. The nuance of different degrees of use are is ignored despite, I assume, most people’s exposure to other substances that are frequently abused ranging from “social use” to “addiction” eg alcohol and nicotine which are legal but have severe health consequences also (liver, heart, brain, oral health, diabetes, blood pressure, strokes, deaths from car accidents etc).

We’ve seen comments here ranging from “i do cocaine, but surely not meth good God no .,, ” to “weed is ok but not ..” to “I didn’t even know what Pnp was, aren’t I so cute and innocent” (all while discussing escorts to donate to). And in the paradigm of how this such an obscure practice. And when concern on health is raised we don’t stop to think how this moralizing and stigmatizing makes it harder for people who genuinely want to control their use to seek help or speak to others about it. 

I’m not trying to normalize anything in terms of encouraging use or dismissing the consequences. But use is far more prevalent than certainly discussion on here would suggest and denying that is a big part of the problem. Before we even get into opioids etc wreaking havoc across our entire society. 

Most of us on here don’t know each other personally and likely never will. There is no need to gain points on our supposed superiority to others whether as providers or clients. 

[ICTJOCK]

On 9/1/2023 at 11:05 AM, DWnyc said:

I chuckle at the irony of this discussion - which to me seems ultimately an attempt at moralizing, shaming, virtue signaling etc.

We are on a forum that exists solely because of a common interest in a hobby that is legally problematic in most of our geographies and socially frowned upon almost everywhere. And that’s before we even get to that man on man stuff that’s also apparently involved.

 

Feel free to chuckle.  I've found it an interesting conversation as I've never discussed it previously with anyone..   If you think I created it as an "attempt"  at anything,  your sadly mistaken.    I've been asked,  I have views and like anything else here,   worthy of conversation.

[JTtorretto]

2 hours ago, ICTJOCK said:

Feel free to chuckle. 
 

I've found it an interesting conversation as I've never discussed it previously.

 

•    On 8/4/2023 at 4:35 PM,  ICTJOCK said: 

All I can say is "wow".   You can put up with far more than I ever would or could.   I'm sure you'd think I'm a very conservative boring dude.   I avoid drugs at all costs and I pride myself on my situation.    Please don't think I'm being overly critical.   I'm not in your situation and not fair to judge you.   You can certainly handle more than I!

Oh jolly, gee man, Bless ur little heart,  but I guess you Kansas boys can be a forgetful bunch... Cuz heres the first time u clarified your views on being firmly anti-pnp.  

Then you did a second, and a third time as well & this is why blck37 rightfully called you out to ask why u were beating this dead horse again.