Can organizations woke themselves to death?

[Guest]

I just read in the (online) paper this morning that Los Angeles's Center Theater Group has halted all productions. I'm guessing that it's going out of business entirely. As a voter who votes Democratic 95% of the time, I complained in the Entertainment forum about the wokeness of their Oklahoma! production. I drew the line at attending their patriotic 1776 production in which none of the US founding fathers was a white man. The group is blaming the pandemic, but I suspect there were quite a few people like me who just weren't interested in watching increasingly woke productions. 

Los Angeles' Center Theatre Group Cancels Much of Season Amid Partial Staff Layoff

PLAYBILL.COM

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The company is citing continued pandemic aftereffects as the reason for the financial troubles.

Trouble at Center Theatre Group: Company to lay off staff, pause Taper programming

WWW.LATIMES.COM

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Facing a budget shortfall of millions of dollars, Center Theatre Group on Thursday announced that it will lay off about 10% of its full-time staff and pause season...

"Facing a significant budget shortfall, Center Theatre Group on Thursday announced that it would lay off about 10% of its full-time staff and pause season programming at the Mark Taper Forum after “Transparent” concludes its run on June 25. The pause is expected to continue through the 2023-24 season, but there is no confirmed end date yet. The first show to be affected is the world premiere of L.A.-based playwright Larissa FastHorse’s “Fake It Until You Make It,” which was scheduled to open on Aug. 2. Fasthorse was going to be the first Native American writer to have a mainstage production at the Taper, and the postponement marks a disappointing end to a season slated to exclusively feature plays written by women-identifying or nonbinary playwrights, the majority of whom were BIPOC artists...". 

Maybe many audience members just like to go and enjoy a show, not just have a finger wagged at them. 

[Kippy]

It's not unlike the TV portrayal of the "The Sound of Music" live a few years back.  The actress that portrayed the Abbess of Nonnberg was a black woman.  Call me silly...a black abbess in 1937 Austria?  It's a hell of a lot more than just a "good actress" performing a role.  Just a smidge of historical reality is needed to pull it off.  I don't see Woody Harrelson vying for the roles of Martin Luther King Jr. or Malcolm X.

Peace,

Kipp

[Xavitv]

Naah 

[mike carey]

And the late great Dame Glenda Jackson played King Lear on the NY stage a couple of years ago. Shock horror. Not that actors were all the gender of the character portrayed at the Globe in the 17th century (they were all male), so for her to play Lear seems only to be fair. Some roles transcend the gender and race that they are perceived to be, and in some of those cases it's only a current perception that they were, say Caucasian. To be sure, some recent historical figures don't lend themselves to race changes, but who is to say that a first nations actor couldn't portray Dr King if the intent was to highlight his message of inclusion? I can't help but recall recent controversy over a black actor portraying a mermaid, as if real mermaids were all white.

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, mike carey said:

...it's only a current perception that they were, say Caucasian...

No, I think it's pretty established that, for good or bad, every signer of the Declaration of Independence was a white man.

I guess we can see the consequences of the ACT having the most lax marijuana laws in the kingdom...

Edited June 19, 2023 by Unicorn

[mike carey]

3 hours ago, mike carey said:

in some of those cases it's only a current perception that they were, say Caucasian.

2 hours ago, Unicorn said:

I guess we can see the consequences of the ACT having the most lax marijuana laws in the kingdom..

I wouldn't dream of suggesting that your inability to understand that 'in some cases' means that by definition 'in some other cases' it was not a perception but the reality, was due to far more lax marijuana laws in the People's Republic of California Norte than anywhere in this Commonwealth. I didn't mention the signatories of the US declaration of independence for the obvious reason that my point did not apply to them. And I don't post puerile images in an attempt to belittle other people.

[samhexum]

10 hours ago, Kippy said:

I don't see Woody Harrelson vying for the roles of Martin Luther King Jr. or Malcolm X.

The Rowdy Girls

Directed by: David Trainer
Written by: Linda Bloodworth-Thomason
Taped: October 3, 1989
Airdate: October 30, 1989

 

For the annual Design Arts Center Talent Show, Sugarbaker's decides to lip-synch a Supremes song. Suzanne is called away to judge a beauty contest but promises to be back in time for the show. Before she leaves, she announces that she and Anthony are also doing a Motown routine together. Suzanne suggests doing her routines in black makeup, an idea the other women find racist. 

 

MARY JO: Suzanne, we can't go around in black face, that's racist!
SUZANNE: Why? If Dustin Hoffman was gonna play Martin Luther King, you don't think he'd wear black makeup?
JULIA: Suzanne, Dustin Hoffman would never play Martin Luther King -- that part would go to a black actor.
SUZANNE: Well I think that's racist! I mean, I think it should go to whoever the best person is --- and that could be Dustin Hoffman.

I can quote Designing Women for many situations in life. 😎

Edited June 19, 2023 by samhexum
for shits and giggles

[Guest]

8 hours ago, mike carey said:

... 'in some other cases' it was not a perception but the reality...

Then your argument has nothing to do with the discussion. The OP was about the practice of distorting history in theater. The CTG used to do it a lot, and apparently a good deal of the public wasn't buying. What other cases you're referring to, I can only leave to my imagination. 

[+ José Soplanucas]

22 hours ago, Unicorn said:

The group is blaming the pandemic, but I suspect there were quite a few people like me who just weren't interested in watching increasingly woke productions. 

It sounds like you are questioning their explanation (the pandemic) based only in your dislike of what you perceive as excessive wokism. Do you have any evidence other than your preferences?

[+ José Soplanucas]

10 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

What other cases you're referring to, I can only leave to my imagination. 

Just saw this. Your imagination also has a lot to do with your interpretation of this company halting productions. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, José Soplanucas said:

It sounds like you are questioning their explanation (the pandemic) based only in your dislike of what you perceive as excessive wokism. Do you have any evidence other than your preferences?

Pretty simple. There are almost countless other theater groups in LA, many of which I'm familiar. They all went through the pandemic, and its attendant problems. This is the ONLY theater group which folded (at least to my knowledge). Obviously, their ticket sales and donations suffered since the lockdown. There are even some theater groups, such as the Geffen Playhouse, which focus on more progressive and avant-garde themes (but in an entertaining, not in-your-face, way). If those running the CTG believe their ills are due to the pandemic, they have an amazing lack self-awareness. 

List of Musicals, Comedies & Shows in LA | Geffen Playhouse

WWW.GEFFENPLAYHOUSE.ORG

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Discover new musicals, classic comedies & innovative plays in Los Angeles at the Geffen Playhouse. Explore the latest shows & order theatre tickets now!

 

[+ José Soplanucas]

9 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

Pretty simple. There are almost countless other theater groups in LA, many of which I'm familiar. They all went through the pandemic, and its attendant problems. This is the ONLY theater group which folded (at least to my knowledge). Obviously, their ticket sales and donations suffered since the lockdown. There are even some theater groups, such as the Geffen Playhouse, which focus on more progressive and avant-garde themes (but in an entertaining, not in-your-face, way). If those running the CTG believe their ills are due to the pandemic, they have an amazing lack self-awareness. 

List of Musicals, Comedies & Shows in LA | Geffen Playhouse

WWW.GEFFENPLAYHOUSE.ORG

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Discover new musicals, classic comedies & innovative plays in Los Angeles at the Geffen Playhouse. Explore the latest shows & order theatre tickets now!

 

Thank you. It looks like a possibility, but still there are a lot of assumptions in your hypothesis. 

One of the lines that stroke me in your argumentation is

22 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Maybe many audience members just like to go and enjoy a show, not just have a finger wagged at them.

You may be underestimating the audience. If the plays were intended to be critic of any groups, mindsets, ideologies, etc., why criticism should be perceived as "finger wagging"? Are you setting this audience at the same level of stupidity some anti-woke posters display in this forum?

Of course, I have never read a script or attended a show, so you may be right. But based on the same sources you are sharing here, I do not see "excess of wokism". I am not saying that there is no such a thing. Unfortunately, yes there is. There are brainless representatives of all political/cultural mindsets, including wokism. I just do not understand your conviction in this particular case.

Additionally, we are talking about an artistic expression's quality (are we?), which does not depend on its popularity. You are an educated and smart man, so I am sure I do not need to make the long list of successful crap, or failing masterpieces we have seen along Art History.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

22 hours ago, Unicorn said:

I complained in the Entertainment forum about the wokeness of their Oklahoma! production.

interesting observation - I saw the most recent Oklahoma revival on Broadway 3x.  I thought it was an outstanding reimagining of a classic American musical.  It didn’t strike me as woke or political in any sense.  The cast was updated to reflect a more modern sensibility & the music was in a stripped down acoustic vein which was gorgeous. 
Part of bringing back a classic is figuring out how to make it relevant and engaging for todays audience - updating the casts racial makeup is an easy way to do that. 
The thing I’ll remember about that show was the beautiful music.  

It’s not everyone’s cup of tea for sure and some really don’t like any changes to their beloved musicals 

[SouthOfTheBorder]

51 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

Obviously, their ticket sales and donations suffered since the lockdown. There are even some theater groups, such as the Geffen Playhouse, which focus on more progressive and avant-garde themes (but in an entertaining, not in-your-face, way). If those running the CTG believe their ills are due to the pandemic, they have an amazing lack self-awareness. 

 

I think you’re putting way too much emphasis on how you perceive a productions “wokeness”.  Oklahoma as an example had a tremendous run on Broadway and therefore would naturally do a national tour which always includes LA.   It has nothing to do with the politics of the show and everything to do with the popularity and corresponding ticket sales.  The trajectory of a Broadway show (before Broadway and after) is entirely predictable and follows a pattern.  Oklahoma was first staged off Broadway at St Anne’s Warehouse in Brooklyn where it was sold out & rave reviews, then transferred to Broadway and the subsequent touring companies.  It’s all about money. 
There are some real duds that somehow go on national tour.  1776 was not well reviewed and I don’t think that was a high demand show.  Very surprised that would be on tour.  it won some Tony’s but that is basically paid PR. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

I think you’re putting way too much emphasis on how you perceive a productions “wokeness”.  Oklahoma as an example...

I think you may not have seen the string I wrote regarding that performance quite a few months ago in the Theater/musicals forum. I knew prior to going in that the casting would be "non-traditional" such as Ado Annie played by a morbidly obese black trans woman. What I didn't know, and I found offensive, was the way in which the characters were portrayed as murder-tolerant bigoted people. In particular, in the original musical, Jud attacks Curly with a knife, and Curly dodges, causing Jud to fall on his own knife. In CTG's version, Jud just threatens Curly, who shoots Jud at point blank range, and the townspeople forgive him, presumably because he's not just a "hired hand." In essence, they turned the play's hero into a murderer, with the townspeople as accomplices.

 

My partner and I both found the new theme offensive. Even more offensive to me was to chastise the founding fathers, who risked their lives by signing the Declaration of Independence. Yes, it was most unfortunate that slavery couldn't have ended then and there, but the declaration had to be unanimous, and it was not going to go through without the South's OK. I'm sure we were not alone with our feelings. CTG's blaming the pandemic rather than an obvious drop in ticket sales and donations comes off as highly disingenuous, and, frankly, dishonest. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Unicorn

[SouthOfTheBorder]

7 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

Jud just threatens Curly, who shoots Jud at point blank range, and the townspeople forgive him, presumably because he's not just a "hired hand." In essence, they turned the play's hero into a murderer, with the townspeople as accomplices.

this is more a commentary on imperfect humans & exposing their flaws and humanity, exonerating someone in their community who they think is guilty.  it’s not so far fetched - happens all the time, actually 

the bigger point is that great theater not only entertains, but makes you think & question your own thoughts/interpretations. 
You’re doing exactly that.  And there is frequently no single true interpretation, many questions are not neatly answered and there are intentional loose ends. 
a really good thought provoking show takes days to settle - and that’s great theatre 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, José Soplanucas said:

...Of course, I have never read a script or attended a show, so you may be right. But based on the same sources you are sharing here, I do not see "excess of wokism". I am not saying that there is no such a thing. Unfortunately, yes there is. There are brainless representatives of all political/cultural mindsets, including wokism. I just do not understand your conviction in this particular case.

Additionally, we are talking about an artistic expression's quality (are we?), which does not depend on its popularity....

Well, yes, you are unfamiliar with their repertoire. Unfortunately, I'm unable to forward a copy of what they would be performing in their upcoming season as it's been cancelled. (The link to the shows I gave earlier is for the successful Geffen Playhouse, which often produces progressive, without being offensive, works). No one is suggesting that we restrain artists' ability to express themselves. Ultimately, though, a theater group's ability to stay afloat depends on donations and on ticket sales. The fact of the matter is that there are tons of theater groups in the LA area which are thriving, and this is the only one to fold since the pandemic (that I'm aware of at least). They had a nice, comfortable venue, and I would have enjoyed seeing more shows there. They didn't produce shows either of us wanted to see, though (much less donate money to the group). Apparently we were not alone with our feelings. They may not have folded for the reasons I suggested, but I can tell you one fact: it wasn't due to the pandemic. 

[nate_sf]

On 6/18/2023 at 12:40 PM, Unicorn said:

Fasthorse was going to be the first Native American writer to have a mainstage production at the Taper, and the postponement marks a disappointing end to a season slated to exclusively feature plays written by women-identifying or nonbinary playwrights, the majority of whom were BIPOC artists...". 

Maybe many audience members just like to go and enjoy a show, not just have a finger wagged at them. 

I'm not familiar with this theater group other than the news links you have provided. But my read of it is that they were wanting to offer an opportunity for playwrights by people who are otherwise often overlooked or excluded from more mainstream productions and venues. But in doing so, they may indeed be limiting their appeal and audience, which could lead to their financial downfall. But I would not necessarily conclude that wanting to be inclusive and offer opportunities to BIPOC and non-binary artists would need to be characterized as "finger wagging." Perhaps they just want to mix it up a bit and give others a chance.

Sure, the pandemic might be used as a face-saving excuse by this group, as well as others who cite it as a reason. My favorite restaurant closed recently and cited the pandemic... I'll admit it was not as crowded as it had been before the pandemic so there was probably some truth in that, but they'd also been in business a long time and maybe they'd just had enough.

[+ José Soplanucas]

15 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Well, yes, you are unfamiliar with their repertoire. Unfortunately, I'm unable to forward a copy of what they would be performing in their upcoming season as it's been cancelled. (The link to the shows I gave earlier is for the successful Geffen Playhouse, which often produces progressive, without being offensive, works). No one is suggesting that we restrain artists' ability to express themselves. Ultimately, though, a theater group's ability to stay afloat depends on donations and on ticket sales. The fact of the matter is that there are tons of theater groups in the LA area which are thriving, and this is the only one to fold since the pandemic (that I'm aware of at least). They had a nice, comfortable venue, and I would have enjoyed seeing more shows there. They didn't produce shows either of us wanted to see, though (much less donate money to the group). Apparently we were not alone with our feelings. They may not have folded for the reasons I suggested, but I can tell you one fact: it wasn't due to the pandemic. 

And yet, you do not seem to know much more than I do about what was happening on stage during their performances, regarding artistic quality. Again, you may be right, but I think you should also entertain the possibility that you are just filling the gaps with a narrative that you find appealing: damn excessive wokeism. 

[MaybeMaybeNot]

The CTG is not alone in its troubles. Theatres around the country have been struggling, though not all of them.  After 9/11, theatres played it safe and produced known entities in their attempt to woo audiences who might otherwise have stayed away.  After the pandemic, theatres decided to produce plays with a variety of topics that were often at odds with their historic show choices, like when the Oregon Shakespeare Festival stopped producing their traditional Shakespeare productions. If Disney started producing animated horror films, if McDonald's became a fast food Thai restaurant, or if Home Depot switched to selling expensove home decor, they would have to start over with a whole new customer base. Theatre is no different. Theatre thrives in an echo chamber these days, so now, all these threatres are struggling.

I don't blame CTG for bringing in 1776 and Oklahoma. Both were Broadway tours. How could they have known audiences would reject them? There was an article written by an actor in the Oklahoma tour, and it sounds like all over the country,  people were walking out in droves, sometimes as many as half the audience. Both shows looked awful and I would have otherwise been a prime customer. I guess I wasn't the only one not duped.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

23 minutes ago, MaybeMaybeNot said:

Both shows looked awful and I would have otherwise been a prime customer.

very different shows with very different reviews & everything else.  
Oklahoma made no attempt to market itself as “woke” and none of the actors did any press to suggest otherwise.  Oklahoma had a great run in New York on/off Broadway with sold out shows and critical acclaim. Sometimes NY theatre doesn’t translate to the rest of the country, especially for shows that aren’t just pure entertainment. 

1776 sought to market the politics of the show from the get go.  There was infighting among the cast & production among various issues including politics, which spilled into the press in some very unfortunate interviews that worked against the show.  The show was not well-reviewed and my understanding is it struggled in NY.  There was literally nothing positive about 1776 in the press or reviews to make anyone want to see it.  If it went on tour, then that was a risky decision and probably only because it was a relatively inexpensive show to tour.  I didn’t see it and had no desire. 

[+ SundayZip]

On 6/18/2023 at 8:52 PM, Kippy said:

It's not unlike the TV portrayal of the "The Sound of Music" live a few years back.  The actress that portrayed the Abbess of Nonnberg was a black woman.  Call me silly...a black abbess in 1937 Austria?  It's a hell of a lot more than just a "good actress" performing a role.  Just a smidge of historical reality is needed to pull it off.  I don't see Woody Harrelson vying for the roles of Martin Luther King Jr. or Malcolm X.

Peace,

Kipp

Were you bothered by the Abbess singing in English in 1930's Austria? How about Maria's cute 1960's pixie haircut?  Or what about the full orchestra (just out of sight) that followed Maria and the Von Trapp children on their bicycles and into Maria's bedroom? Which deviations from reality are okay and which are not?  

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

On 6/18/2023 at 8:52 PM, Kippy said:

It's not unlike the TV portrayal of the "The Sound of Music" live a few years back.  The actress that portrayed the Abbess of Nonnberg was a black woman.  Call me silly...a black abbess in 1937 Austria?  It's a hell of a lot more than just a "good actress" performing a role. 

Peace,

Kipp

GTFO.  It's six-time TONY award winner Audra McDonald.  She's a fucking national treasure and sang the living shit out of it.

If a black actress in an ancillary role in a silly musical bothers you this much, perhaps you need to look at yourself versus the casting agents.

[pubic_assistance]

I don't think casting an actor from a different cultural/ethnic background than the person they are portraying is at all "woke".

As long as they can handle the role, they ARE acting after all.  Gender roles and racial roles have been swapped for centuries.

I am myself guilty of rolling my eyes at the first episode of "Bridgerton" expecting a woke version of Regency England. But I was pleasantly surprised. The actors are all quite accomplished and the directors didn't try to update the scripts, or  style of language to make it funky/modern like "Hamilton" on Broadway. It merely elaborates on the North African ancestry of Queen Charolette but adds more dark skinned characters to the cast than were likely to have been running around early 19th Century London . You might say...that the subtle subtext of mixing of races is "woke" , and that may be slightly true, but it's so well done that it doesn't have the finger wagging correctness that puts off some people. SO I think in the end, Progressive cultural productions need to find a balance where you are left to think without feeling you are being preached to. Extreme woke-ism shoved down MY throat does make me gag.  I'm sure, I'm not alone in feeling that I don't mind being left to think, about a production, but prefer to not be told WHAT to think.

[BSR]

5 hours ago, BenjaminNicholas said:

GTFO.  It's six-time TONY award winner Audra McDonald.  She's a fucking national treasure and sang the living shit out of it.

If a black actress in an ancillary role in a silly musical bothers you this much, perhaps you need to look at yourself versus the casting agents.

Not everyone is a fan of Audra McDonald.  Yes, she's talented but also too actressy.  Every performance is like "watch me aaaaaaaaaact!"  Hey, just my opinion.

My problem with race-switch casting is it's always just in one direction.  If a black actor plays an Austrian abbess or a Russian Jew (a local production of Fiddler on the Roof) and you find it distracting or not credible, the wokety-wokes will scold and shame you.  But if you ever cast a white actor in a person of color role, the same wokety-wokes will unleash hell.  I once met a Mormon who spoke perfect Tagalog (did his mission in the Philippines).  He was cute and I give him mad props for his Tagalog, but do I ever want to see him playing a young Ferdinand Marcos?  Uh no, way too distracting.

Enough with the race-switch casting.  Find another way to signal your virtue.