Degrees of Separation

[jeezifonly]

Saw this article today, and thought it might be something to share for discussion. A study about college degree-holders the US showed that gay men were more likely to have a college degree (or two) than straight men. (The one demographic that seemed to have slowed in acquiring degrees over the period examined are gay women.) 

Now, I am fully aware that many here do not self-identify as gay, and while I don’t know the exact questions posed to respondents were anything other than self-identification, it seems unlikely they would have to slap a dick out of one’s mouth to get confirmation on that question.

So my references here using the plurals “your” “our” and “we” apply to men who would check the box next to Gay rather than the one next to It’s Complicated. 

It does ask about why this may be occurring, and suggested that one reason may be the need to excel in areas under our control to compensate for not living up to societal expectations which is not under an individual’s control.

I wondered if it’s also a need to extend the period where “I‘m so busy with schoolwork” remains a viable excuse for not finding that girl to “go steady” Ugh.

I had a girlfriend for all 4 years of university, and of course knew in my heart it was doomed. I worked hard to get my BFA, had multiple offers for grad school TA’s but I did not want more school. In my line of pursuit, advanced degrees are only an advantage in pursuit of careers in academia - No thanks.
Not long after college ended, so did the girlfriend. For the next few years, having been with men but still not out to family, I was able to use poverty as my excuse (BFA, remember…) for not finding the right girl. 

Is this data somehow indicative of our need to fend off or delay societal disapproval? Or are we just smarter, in addition to being more clever, talented, funny and having better taste?

Did you get a degree, two-years of college or more? If you are looking back from a distance of more than a few years, do you feel your sexuality played a role in the motivation required to get it? Did you go beyond 4 yrs? Did you also excel in school as an adolescent, and feel anything akin to the “best little boy in the world” syndrome?

Be sure to show your work on the back of the page. Pencils up. Time starts now.

 

[topunderachiever]

Easy.  Collectively, gay men would rather not work blue collar.  

Edited November 26, 2021 by topunderachiever

[+ Charlie]

I suspect that one of the reasons gay men are more likely to finish degrees than straight men is simply the fact that they do not start families and have to support them, as straight men often do when they are young and sexually active. Gay men are therefore also freer to pursue careers that require academic degrees.

I was always in the top five per cent of my high school class academically, so there was social pressure from family, teachers and peers to go to college. I completed two degrees before I even started working, and two more later, but I don't think my sexuality per se had anything to do with that; the more important factors were my freedom and financial ability to do so.

[+ nycman]

It was my brain not my dick that guided my education.

Well that and who the hell wants to work at McDonalds for life?

[+ E.T.Bass]

17 hours ago, jeezifonly said:

Saw this article today, and thought it might be something to share for discussion. A study about college degree-holders the US showed that gay men were more likely to have a college degree (or two) than straight men. (The one demographic that seemed to have slowed in acquiring degrees over the period examined are gay women.) 

Now, I am fully aware that many here do not self-identify as gay, and while I don’t know the exact questions posed to respondents were anything other than self-identification, it seems unlikely they would have to slap a dick out of one’s mouth to get confirmation on that question.

So my references here using the plurals “your” “our” and “we” apply to men who would check the box next to Gay rather than the one next to It’s Complicated. 

It does ask about why this may be occurring, and suggested that one reason may be the need to excel in areas under our control to compensate for not living up to societal expectations which is not under an individual’s control.

I wondered if it’s also a need to extend the period where “I‘m so busy with schoolwork” remains a viable excuse for not finding that girl to “go steady” Ugh.

I had a girlfriend for all 4 years of university, and of course knew in my heart it was doomed. I worked hard to get my BFA, had multiple offers for grad school TA’s but I did not want more school. In my line of pursuit, advanced degrees are only an advantage in pursuit of careers in academia - No thanks.
Not long after college ended, so did the girlfriend. For the next few years, having been with men but still not out to family, I was able to use poverty as my excuse (BFA, remember…) for not finding the right girl. 

Is this data somehow indicative of our need to fend off or delay societal disapproval? Or are we just smarter, in addition to being more clever, talented, funny and having better taste?

Did you get a degree, two-years of college or more? If you are looking back from a distance of more than a few years, do you feel your sexuality played a role in the motivation required to get it? Did you go beyond 4 yrs? Did you also excel in school as an adolescent, and feel anything akin to the “best little boy in the world” syndrome?

Be sure to show your work on the back of the page. Pencils up. Time starts now.

 

Thank you for sharing that article.  I am sort of happy such a study came out of Notre Dame. 

 How Professor Mittleman used "overcompensation" to frame the data, says we gay men are equally gifted as straight men, but achieve more by trying harder.

Perhaps we do try harder.   Or perhaps straight men sense there are other options available to them, options prompting to leave campus.  

That we are smarter than straight men is a bit of a stretch.  There is a lot of bias involved trying to measure "smarts".

In my personal case, all of us (5 sons) got technical degrees.  I got better grades and earned my degree faster than they did.  I am earning much more.

But does that mean I'm smarter than my straight brothers?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by E.T.Bass

[jeezifonly]

5 minutes ago, E.T.Bass said:

Thank you for sharing that article.  I am sort of happy such a study came out of Notre Dame. 

 Professor Mittleman used "overcompensation" to frame the data.  In other words, he offered his theory that we gay men might be equally gifted as straight men, but achieve more by trying harder.

Perhaps we do try harder.   Or perhaps straight men sense there are other options available to them, options prompting to leave campus.  

That we are smarter than than straight men is a bit of a stretch.  There is a lot of bias involved trying to measure "smarts".

In my personal case, all of us (5 boys) got technical degrees.  I got better grades and earned my degree faster than they did.  I am earning much more.

But does that mean I'm smarter than my straight brothers?

 

I was being facetious in that moment, tbh. But if proof exists about the particular location and behavior of a small section of our brains consistent with homosexual desires, is it a big stretch to imagine other parts of the brain might have also benefited otherwise from proximity to the sissy cells? 

[+ Lucky]

Going to college and beyond made me able to defer coming out until school finished!

[+ E.T.Bass]

31 minutes ago, jeezifonly said:

I was being facetious in that moment, tbh. But if proof exists about the particular location and behavior of a small section of our brains consistent with homosexual desires, is it a big stretch to imagine other parts of the brain might have also benefited otherwise from proximity to the sissy cells? 

Maybe the same region that houses the smart ass queen cells.

[jeezifonly]

1 hour ago, E.T.Bass said:

Maybe the same region that houses the smart ass queen cells.

sans doute 

[nate_sf]

This is pretty interesting. But I'm not sure how much of the explanation might be overcompensation, versus making most of the choices available.

For example, a lot of gay guys for whatever reason are lousy at sports. Why this is is anyone's guess, and it's not absolute, but it definitely applied to me growing up. So given I was lousy at sports, I focused on things that I was good at, which was academics. But what if I'd been good at sports? Would I have put more effort into team sports practice, and less on academics? Meanwhile, the world of sports has not generally been welcoming to gay people, whereas academia has been more so.

Though like @Charlie, my venture into academia was largely influenced by my family. My grandfather was a college professor, and various aunts and uncles were either in academia or worked in the sciences, and my siblings and I were all very focused on school. As the youngest, I had a desire to equal or exceed the academic success of my siblings, and to gain the approval of my grandfather and relatives. So while I had (and still do to a degree) best little boy in the world syndrome, I think the overcompensation was based more on family competitiveness.

But also the career path I chose required college, so I'm not sure how much sexuality had to do with going to college versus pursuing a particular career path. In undergrad I still thought I'd be dating women, and had crushes on a few women but the dating never amounted to anything. I was laser focused on academic achievement, so probably would not have wanted to be distracted by dating either a man or a woman. By the time I was in grad school I was out and dating men, but still academics took priority. I remember once meeting a hot guy at the pool, and he wanted to come over to my place, but I said I had to study. Oh geez, what was I thinking! But maybe that focus on academic achievement could maybe be tied to overcompensation for sexuality after all. I loved the thrill of doing well in college, and receiving praise for doing well. So maybe I liked that praise because I felt less good about myself as a person.

So it's hard to tell how much gay guys having college degrees is a matter of self-selection, with choosing to follow career paths that require college, versus straight guys making other choices. I'm not sure it shows who is smarter though - I think it's more about what choices people make, and what choices they have available to them.

[+ bigjoey]

For me, going to college was just expected by family.  It was not only just going to college but what type of graduate education to be a “professional”: doctor, lawyer or dentist were the main choices offered.

Myself, sister and all cousins went to college.  Most of the females went into teaching (some had masters degrees) and all the males got professional degrees.  

The expectations were set high and it never occurred to any of us not to work hard to meet those expectations.

[+ Charlie]

My spouse was one of four brothers, the elder two gay and the younger two straight. Their father was a domineering lawyer who expected all of his children to go away to college and get professional degrees--preferably at his own alma mater. The oldest (gay) did go to his father's school and did get a professional degree, and later got another one at an Ivy League university. The second son (gay) went to his father's school for one year, dropped out and went to work, eventually enrolled at a local commuter college, where he majored in his favorite subject, math, got a degree, and in his 30s got a law degree. The third son (straight) was a rebel who went to a different college, left after one year and became a construction worker for the rest of his life. The youngest son (straight) went to a different school, got an engineering degree, later an MBA, and ended up as a V-P at General Motors. They were all smart enough to get into good schools, but followed different paths from that point. Each of the gay brothers ended up with two degrees and successful professional careers, but so did one of the straight brothers. It is hard to see how much difference their sexual orientation made. BTW, all four of them had long, happy marriages, and remained close to one another.

[+ keroscenefire]

I think one thing that's going on here is that actually a lot of "straight" blue-collar, lower-education rural men are actually on the DL having sex with other men. There's been some academic and journalistic work on this. Many men absolutely have sex with other men often FWB kinda situations but otherwise have wives, kids, jobs, etc.

I went to college in a small, Midwest town and actually had a FWB thing with a local guy. He 100% identified as straight and was recently divorced from his wife but had three kids with her. Met him on Adam4Adam and we had a great time but he never wanted to pursue anything romantic and really kept what we had going on separate from the rest of his life. I was the president of this cultural center and actually lived in this house by myself over a summer so it really worked out for us. We even kind of played house a bit...he'd make me breakfast in the morning. In its own way he was kinda cute.

11 hours ago, Charlie said:

I suspect that one of the reasons gay men are more likely to finish degrees than straight men is simply the fact that they do not start families and have to support them,

 

 I do think Charlie is 100% right with this as I know my FWB had kids either still in high school or right out of high school and so he had no interest in college and was all about supporting his family right away. He worked at a warehouse/transportation center in town. 

I think it's more about identity than anything. I think more men have had sex with men then we realize but a lot of them would never say they were gay or bi or anything but straight. 

[+ Pensant]

11 hours ago, nate_sf said:

For example, a lot of gay guys for whatever reason are lousy at sports. Why this is is anyone's guess, and it's not absolute, but it definitely applied to me growing up. So given I was lousy at sports, I focused on things that I was good at, which was academics. But what if I'd been good at sports? Would I have put more effort into team sports practice, and less on academics? Meanwhile, the world of sports has not generally been welcoming to gay people, whereas academia has been more so.

The sports thing is worthy of its own thread. I overcompensated for my fear of sports by becoming extremely fit as I got older. I remember dreading physical education classes. The only things I looked forward to in high school were running events, gymnastics and tennis, not to mention the showers! I developed elaborate excuses as a young adult to avoid company picnics, which would always involve softball games. What a lot of young energy expended on avoidance techniques!

[+ keroscenefire]

13 hours ago, nate_sf said:

 

For example, a lot of gay guys for whatever reason are lousy at sports. Why this is is anyone's guess, and it's not absolute, but it definitely applied to me growing up. So given I was lousy at sports, I focused on things that I was good at, which was academics. But what if I'd been good at sports? Would I have put more effort into team sports practice, and less on academics? Meanwhile, the world of sports has not generally been welcoming to gay people, whereas academia has been more so.

 

I don't necessarily think that gay guys are bad at sports. Maybe it's that they worried playing sports in high school would expose their sexuality with all those locker rooms, etc. I actually have a lot of friends who play various sports in gay leagues and many are quite good. 

[+ WilliamM]

1 hour ago, keroscenefire said:

I don't necessarily think that gay guys are bad at sports. Maybe it's that they worried playing sports in high school would expose their sexuality with all those locker rooms, etc. I actually have a lot of friends who play various sports in gay leagues and many are quite good. 

I was quite good at Cross country running and enjoyed the shower room there and when I was in the Army.

Also Charlie leaves out the men here who are married to women, or were married to women. 

[+ Charlie]

My spouse hated sports as a child and still does, but I don't think it was because he was gay; I think it was because he was shorter than his peers (5'5" as an adult) and very near-sighted, so he couldn't compete with them in most sports, and he turned his competitive instincts to academics. His father also was not interested in sports,  didn't play anything himself and never encouraged his sons to play. His straight younger brothers, however, both played football in high school, but it was because they were quite large (6 ft and 200 lbs as adults) and had normal eyesight, so they were recruited by their coaches and peers.

I was not particularly athletic, partly because I was really skinny as a teen (5'9" and 120 lbs), but I still enjoyed playing street baseball, though I wasn't recruited by anyone for most sports. However, my father was always involved in some kind of sport--bowling, ice-skating, golf--and he regularly took me to pro baseball games, so I enjoyed many sports as a spectator, and discovered the joy of playing tennis myself as an older adult.

[jeezifonly]

11 hours ago, keroscenefire said:

I think one thing that's going on here is that actually a lot of "straight" blue-collar, lower-education rural men are actually on the DL having sex with other men. There's been some academic and journalistic work on this. Many men absolutely have sex with other men often FWB kinda situations but otherwise have wives, kids, jobs, etc.

I went to college in a small, Midwest town and actually had a FWB thing with a local guy. He 100% identified as straight and was recently divorced from his wife but had three kids with her. Met him on Adam4Adam and we had a great time but he never wanted to pursue anything romantic and really kept what we had going on separate from the rest of his life. I was the president of this cultural center and actually lived in this house by myself over a summer so it really worked out for us. We even kind of played house a bit...he'd make me breakfast in the morning. In its own way he was kinda cute.

 I do think Charlie is 100% right with this as I know my FWB had kids either still in high school or right out of high school and so he had no interest in college and was all about supporting his family right away. He worked at a warehouse/transportation center in town. 

I think it's more about identity than anything. I think more men have had sex with men then we realize but a lot of them would never say they were gay or bi or anything but straight. 

This goes back to my original post - the study does not seem to address all the variations of sexuality we recognize now - it was simply “self-identification” as M/F Str/Gay. So, the many men who felt (feel) they could be straight, married fathers and still get railed in the ass on the DL, would be included in the Straight Male category.

I would not be surprised if further depth of the study revealed lots of bi-sexual men who ID as straight left school early to marry the oops girl and seek full-time income to raise the kid, with a smaller portion of those fathers later identifying as Gay. Sometimes. 

[+ purplekow]

Some gay boys are recognized as different, ostracized at team events and as a result they may not develop the skills, early on, that will make sports a viable part of their lives.  Elementary academics is a solitary pursuit, does not require the acceptance of one's peers and as a result, it may be a refuge for those who are otherwise excluded from social interactions such as sports.  Teachers will frequently favor those students who do well and as a result, even those of average intelligence may do better in school due to extra attention and extra incentive that academic success will engender.   Once that pattern of success and reward is established, moving on and continuing to have those positive aspects to ones life may become a goal unto itself.  

That is not to say that there are no gay and bi boys who excel at sports, but my guess is those young men are not as easy for their peers to recognize as "different".  They may recognize their own difference and fear standing out academically lest they be recognized as somehow different.  So perhaps those fellows have incentive to avoid academic success.   

Clearly social acceptance, peer perception and native intelligence all play large roles in the social interactions of youth that shape our personalities and mold our futures.   

For me, I was glad to be better than average in physical pursuits and academic pursuits but in some ways, I do believe that I did try to limit my success in both realms because I did not want anyone evaluating me too closely.  Being different for me was not something I fostered.  

[Rudynate]

I really loathed school - from the very first day of kindergarten.  My constant thought was "how am I going to get through this?" 

Somehow, in spite of the fact that I loathed school, Ive ended up with three degrees - a BA and two professional degrees.  I think this happened because I somehow finally became willing to do the next thing and there was always someone around to support and encourage me in doing the next thing.  I'm actually thinking of going back to school because I would like to round out my educational background with a scholarly doctorate.  One of my professional degrees is a doctorate, but I would love to have a PhD - probably in bioinformatics.   Being gay has certainly helped in all of this because without a wife and children I'm able to devote my resources to cultivating and developing myself.  It's one of the privileges of being childless - you get to travel the world, learn new languages, acquire new skills, etc. etc. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[+ Pensant]

Before I came out, I always dreaded the kindness of friends who would wonder- you’re such a handsome guy, why aren’t you dating any girls. We have a friend you would love. Being fair-skinned, I’m certain that I blushed brightly. Oh God. It was so much better when I could respond “oh thanks, but I’m gay.”

Edited November 27, 2021 by Pensant
More content

[larrynormann]

On 11/27/2021 at 5:08 AM, topunderachiever said:

Easy.  Collectively, gay men would rather not work blue collar.  

Ironically we prefer having sex with masculine straight acting blue collar tradies.

[dbar123]

The whole study seems pointless to me. Frankly, who cares? It is as absurd as saying that a greater percentage of clergy are gay.

 

[+ WilliamM]

On 11/27/2021 at 2:00 PM, Charlie said:

My spouse hated sports as a child and still does, but I don't think it was because he was gay; I think it was because he was shorter than his peers (5'5" as an adult) and very near-sighted, so he couldn't compete with them in most sports, and he turned his competitive instincts to academics. His father also was not interested in sports,  didn't play anything himself and never encouraged his sons to play. His straight younger brothers, however, both played football in high school, but it was because they were quite large (6 ft and 200 lbs as adults) and had normal eyesight, so they were recruited by their coaches and peers.

I was not particularly athletic, partly because I was really skinny as a teen (5'9" and 120 lbs), but I still enjoyed playing street baseball, though I wasn't recruited by anyone for most sports. However, my father was always involved in some kind of sport--bowling, ice-skating, golf--and he regularly took me to pro baseball games, so I enjoyed many sports as a spectator, and discovered the joy of playing tennis myself as an older adult.

I quit Little league after two Summers because it was my whole life. Playing in Little League and in my neighborhood. I didn't start many Little league game, but I greatly enjoyed a less regimented baseball game  in the neighborhood.

My female fifth and sixth grade teachers told me I was making a mistake. They were right as to socialization with straight guys.

Something I didn't understand when I was age 10 and 11. Sadly.