DWnyc

I never used to negotiate and now I do given the crazy rates.
And it’s rare I haven’t got the price down at least $100 (or an offer to keep the original $ but increase the time). Even if it comes after their time-consuming posturing about they know their value etc. 
I used to have more sympathy for the idea of respecting a provider’s rate once they threw it out - but I’ve learnt over time I am just a transactional counterparty out of hundreds for them so it’s time to start responding in kind. 
 

I have a friend who - let’s just say for the point of this anecdote - is older and fatter than gay civilization tolerates.
he has a regular engagement with a prominent provider in our geography. Their interaction is respectful, the provider encourages him to extend sessions, meet more regularly, tells him he enjoys it as well etc etc 
he also sees the provider popping up every so often on one of the online hookup apps. He initiated contact once not realizing who it was, and maybe the provider didn’t recognize him either, but he got an instant rejection being told directly he was too old and fat.
my friend sort of enjoys playing - so reaches out on the hookup app anonymously to tease the provider every so often. (I’ve told him not to as he may get caught out and it would kill his regular sessions that he enjoys). And gets abusive responses totally out of whack with the comms in their sessions.
anyway the point being when there’s a transaction involved most providers will relax whatever criteria they may have for hooking up with someone in their real lives. And that’s part of the point of the business model. 

After this post and the ensuing discussion I no longer have a fear of initiating posts that will undermine my non-existent anonymous reputation 

Sink me! Take heart as I! If nothing else, I can yet draw a crowd on a Sunday. 

This year is only a few weeks old, but this post must surely earn the best ‘non sequitur’ of 2023 award 😎

if i hear an outrageous rate, i simply say 
"i have XXX to spend" ... let them figure it out

It’s about the same in ny now. Any new guys or guys that I haven’t noticed in the past respond back $400 and some up to $500. 
I’m glad the guys I started to see a while ago haven’t changed their prices at least with me. 

I remember all of those, haha! And maybe the TS closer to Herald Square that you mention was K-Town Sauna west 32nd I think?🤷‍♂️    And the Roosevelt Ave. I don't know. Thank god there's one I never went to 🤣🤭

Challenge accepted

Didn’t know the names of the venues but had a mental picture in my earlier post. 
Here are some random references from a quick internet search.
1. Wall Street Sauna
https://gaycitynews.com/wall-street-sauna-shuttered/
2. Mount Morris Baths (Harlem)
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/19/nyregion/mount-morris-journal-a-gay-bathhouse-in-harlem-hey-it-s-no-secret.html
3. Northern Men’s Sauna (Flushing)
https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/saunas/northamerica/usa/newyork/nyc/12493_Northern Men's Sauna
4. El Mirage on East Houston
https://www.villagevoice.com/2005/11/29/ny-mirror-456/

Roosevelt Ave and Times Sq will need more research … a friend I asked about them after I was drawing a blank said the TSQ location was actually closer to Herald Square / west 30s. And the one I called Roosevelt Ave was actually on one of the large cross streets.

If I am in any city with a male strip club, I make it a point to patronize the business if only to keep them open and hopefully stir demand for even more.  There are so few as it is.

All of my clients are over 40. A good number are in their 70s and 80s. No upper limit. 
When I’m deciding to unlock or decline, age is not a factor, but other aspects of the client’s profile are. Biggest red flag is if they’ve posted several negative reviews, or it could be something in their description. 

Is there any possibility that there is something else in your profile that might give a provider pause?

Exactly. 
Summarily saying “probably an illegal” does not require defense of immigrants (legal or otherwise) in response - but it introduces another ingredient into why some of us might not apparently like this extortionist with no proof - when we already have specific data on why we don’t. No need to add irrelevant layers with sweeping generalizations - we have enough to universally condemn the culprit here.
 
 

To say someone is “probably an illegal” isn’t referring to the nature of the work (and that would apply to all providers without a qualifier as in the statement).
“Illegal” as a description of someone is typically understood to be someone undocumented per US immigration law … but I doubt most who use the term know about the different categories of immigrants (including the legal ones) … or that there are in fact many Caucasian “illegals” (including a couple of providers I have met from places like Ireland and NZ - but that’s another story for another day 😊) 

Just as a caveat, there are plenty of providers with excellent reviews online and good anecdotal feedback here where I (and others I know) have experienced bad / potentially scary things.
So take the precautions always, even when a provider seems totally legit, and remember there might be a very slippery slope from a provider’s good day to a bad one. Not maligning all or anywhere near most providers - but it just has to be a couple to ruin interaction for all of us. 

To say someone is “probably an illegal” isn’t referring to the nature of the work (and that would apply to all providers without a qualifier as in the statement).
“Illegal” as a description of someone is typically understood to be someone undocumented per US immigration law … but I doubt most who use the term know about the different categories of immigrants (including the legal ones) … or that there are in fact many Caucasian “illegals” (including a couple of providers I have met from places like Ireland and NZ - but that’s another story for another day 😊) 

I would just ask, “Are you comfortable being in the nude while doing the massage, or is that not something you offer?“
And it’s either yes or no at that point. Can’t control whether a person gets mad or not…you can decide whether you want to continue things the way they are or look elsewhere.

I’ve done 4 hands for clients many times, even a couple of 6 hands. First thing to say is it’s expensive because you’ve hired two masseurs. 
I do it with a few other masseurs who I trust and who I like working with. It’s a better experience for the client if you work with someone you’re compatible with so if you’re a client booking a 4 hands choose a masseur you like and then ask him to pick the other guy (or masseuse depending on what you like!). 
I did a 2 hour 4 hands session recently for a guy. It was with a masseur I know (we have similar styles) and we worked head / feet ends and side by side at various times. Overall I think it worked fine and the client loved it but in general most 4 hands last an hour and progress quickly because the client tends to not want much massage. They want fun with two guys so it usually develops into more of an escort session very quickly. 
I’d recommend that better value for money is had by getting a 2 hand massage. There’s too much going on with a 4 hands, it’s difficult to relax into it and unless the 2 masseurs are super coordinated it can feel disjointed. 
I once did a 10 hands, not for a paying client - it was with friends. The guy on the table was anxious about it. I think my friend who had arranged it was keen to do it and had talked the body (the recipient) into it, but he found it difficult to lay there and get massaged by 5 guys. 

There simply wasn’t enough room around the table and everyone was doing different things in different ways. You couldn’t call it a massage, it was a group grope session. The poor guy couldn’t get hard and had to stop after half hour. He got dressed and left!
More hands definitely doesn’t make a better massage. I think the law of diminishing returns comes in after two hands. 
 

 
 

Congrats on handling this well - for your safety foremost, and to minimize financial damage.
I am frankly sick and tired of hearing providers complaining about clients wasting their time and why this means they need to charge deposits (with paper trail), or require electronic payments or photo for security etc - I would have even a tiny bit of sympathy if the legitimate concerns on the client side were acknowledged, just once.
The worst I ever faced so far (touch wood) was leaving my wallet in someone’s apartment and texting him as soon as I left when I realized, and him letting me back into his apt but then demanding 1 hr $ for the “trouble” I caused him. When I said I don’t have the cash he replied “I just checked and you do”. I’m sure he photographed my drivers license while he was at it. I did get my wallet back and paid him what he asked and was glad to be done with him and leave as soon as I could. Apparently he had a track record of this type of stuff and disappeared from the site shortly after.
The good news is there was no further damage - nothing on my credit card, no harassment to my address etc and I’m sure it will be the same for you. He would probably be easy to track down and he’s likely betting that a few instances of low volume extortion will pay off with larger / repeat scale becoming problematic. 

The whole discussion around allegations that the provider is “illegal” is off track. Can we please get back to the extortion discussion? 🤔

The question is what are you seeking from the phone call especially if 5-7 mins - that’s a long time! - 7% of an hourly session! A provider would likely say I can answer whatever questions he has in a few texts and if there’s more he’s too much work!
See the discussions constantly on here with providers complaining that even a couple of texts back and forth with potential clients drive them Nuts when added up over the day. 
While I’ve met a couple of providers who actually insist on a call before meeting (likely to “sound me out” for temperament) I’ve found most express a strong preference for text which has always made sense to me - for efficiency and discretion. 
Culturally I think we have moved away from calls to texts in most admin comms and I’d say good luck finding providers willing to invest the 5-7 mins you think it will take. 
 

Congrats on handling this well - for your safety foremost, and to minimize financial damage.
I am frankly sick and tired of hearing providers complaining about clients wasting their time and why this means they need to charge deposits (with paper trail), or require electronic payments or photo for security etc - I would have even a tiny bit of sympathy if the legitimate concerns on the client side were acknowledged, just once.
The worst I ever faced so far (touch wood) was leaving my wallet in someone’s apartment and texting him as soon as I left when I realized, and him letting me back into his apt but then demanding 1 hr $ for the “trouble” I caused him. When I said I don’t have the cash he replied “I just checked and you do”. I’m sure he photographed my drivers license while he was at it. I did get my wallet back and paid him what he asked and was glad to be done with him and leave as soon as I could. Apparently he had a track record of this type of stuff and disappeared from the site shortly after.
The good news is there was no further damage - nothing on my credit card, no harassment to my address etc and I’m sure it will be the same for you. He would probably be easy to track down and he’s likely betting that a few instances of low volume extortion will pay off with larger / repeat scale becoming problematic. 

Reminded me of a bizarre experience: 
As a provider takes me up to his hotel room he asks “do you like groups?” And while opening door the I see he has a friend there … I say I’m not donating more than agreed and I’m told the other guy is free as they’re sharing a room and it’s late and he has nowhere else to go. I ran out claiming I felt ill and it was nothing to do with them (my gut said this was weird and scary so get out without angering them). I got abusive texts the whole night saying I owed him double the amount discussed (for 2 people).
 
 

The only illegal in the United States that I have ever known to be such was a white Israeli lad who overstayed his tourist visa and got hooked up with an older man.
They wintered in Miami and lived somewhere in Connecticut. Very hot guy and we had a roll in the sack. He couldn't work or drive since he had no drivers license or green card. I thought his life was very restricted. Oh he also couldn't read English but could speak it.

Texts can be answered when you have time, and discreetly if in company. Calls (unless a time for them is planned) are often made when you can’t answer because you’re with someone or in the middle of something and you can’t speak openly.
 I prefer my clients text or message me on WhatsApp. If they want a call it needs to be pre-arranged so I can take it somewhere quiet. Also I’ve found that clients who want to call sometimes are just looking for sex chat. They deny it but then ask questions like “what will you do to me?” etc. I have to say that I don’t do sex chat calls. This is why most guys prefer arrangements to be made by text. 

To say someone is “probably an illegal” isn’t referring to the nature of the work (and that would apply to all providers without a qualifier as in the statement).
“Illegal” as a description of someone is typically understood to be someone undocumented per US immigration law … but I doubt most who use the term know about the different categories of immigrants (including the legal ones) … or that there are in fact many Caucasian “illegals” (including a couple of providers I have met from places like Ireland and NZ - but that’s another story for another day 😊)