Do I need to keep paying to feel this kind of connection?

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

4 hours ago, lseactuary90 said:

Out of interest, do you find the high quality escort sessions help make you a better partner / lover etc?

I doubt it.  Sometimes I just need my prostate pounded to oblivion. 😁 

[SirBillybob]

If people opine that you are the reason for good things in your life it’s a judgement. It doesn’t seem judgemental because the implication is that you are laudable. If a chatroom member spontaneously posts success the response is typically that it’s deserved and it emanates from positives and strengths. You may blush but not discount the source (me, myself, I) that drove the outcome. It isn’t pathologically narcissistic to concede that you are the author of your success. Yet you won’t drill down too much to give credit to external factors unrelated to you. 

In contrast, any response containing the notion that you are the reason for a problem or deficit in life quality will seem judgemental, can sting and seem questionable. An entry about the lack of success is polarizing because attributing to you the reason for failure does seem judgemental. You split the response range, at risk of continuum oversimplification here, into harsh versus soothingly supportive. The latter has only been useful because it suggests you are worth the success (cliché encouragement). However, that alone doesn’t consider the ways in which one, consciously or not, is contributing to failure. The tendency is to externalize the variables impeding success. It isn’t without secondary gain as resentment may compromise function less so than sadness. The idea of personal deficits is naturally depressogenic. 

If you hadn’t been exposed to a set of ideas about how failure is what you sow then perhaps you yourself should have directed such notions to yourself. Even then, many would protest that you are being too hard on yourself. So why wouldn’t you label critique about your world view as inhospitable (rhetorical). Well-meaning holding back judgement is the current you must swim against. There may be value in criticism that comes across as harsh because it should be no more rejectable than salutations.

Red-faced with hackles up paradoxically challenges the concept of owning your fate. It’s as narcissistic as what pats on the back stimulate. Think about the contradiction. It’s remarkable how we’re hotwired to react. By this I mean the universal commonality of narcissism as opposed to clinically disordered. 

Edited June 1 by SirBillybob

[viewing ownly]

5 hours ago, lseactuary90 said:

I did consider it but I'm not sure I could do it. 

I'm very much wired for a 1:1 sensual intimate experience, with someone I am attracted to, so I'm not sure I could satisfy someone I am not into at all. And I say this because I've had (free) hookups with guys I've not been into and never felt good about it after. 

Plenty of tall handsome gay tall hung men are on these apps, so I guess they are struggling. Just because someone has these attributes, doesn't mean they will find a match, infact, sometimes the 'more boxes you tick' the harder it is to find a match because the pool is smaller to match you if that makes sense? I have an acquaintance - tall, white, muscled, high IG following / social, etc, can't find a relationship, because he is a bottom, and tops tend to seek shorter bottoms for example.

If you're looking for the impossible, you're going to find the impossible. There is no perfect guy, and for those who say so, just look at the expression of the guy they're head over heels over right after it's said : it's just not true!

One of the reasons the sitcom "Seinfeld" was so funny was the never-ending gag that the primary character was in pursuit of the perfect mate, which doesn't exist. Nobody is flawless, so you're simply going to have to tweak your pursuit of perfection, or let someone who comes close get away. 

[lseactuary90]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

I'm gonna tackle this question after also reading all the other commentary that's been shared.

I will precede my "analysis" with an explanation. Although shared before on C.o.M., you may not know where I am coming from. When I was in my early 30's, I identified as a gay man. I started dating men after many years of exclusively dating women.(Although sexually active with both).

I am sharing this information, to say that I also found dating gay men to be difficult. Although the initial connections felt "right", every situation felt transactional in the sense that I was somehow there to entertain my partner and once I no longer brought fresh excitement to the meet ups, the interest waned. I also noticed that gay men rarely have the ability to give up their hook up lifestyle even for a few months while they focus on a relationship. (I dont believe in long-term sexual monogamy, but I do feel its important as a method of imprinting during a period of focused dating with one partner).

My opinion over all, is that dating gay men in NYC is problematic because there are SO many emotional distractions. Loads of parties, venues, and available dick that makes these guys dopamine-junkies. This may likely be why so many end up meth addicted, when they run out of external stimuli to keep the brain-chemical party going.

The overall unpleasant result of trying to date a dopamine junkie, is ABANDONMENT. Your feelings of being "seen" by your provider were an unexpected reward in an environment where the power-of-the-purse had you in control of the moment.  The comment: "why do you need to pay" was an ego burst of "you are special" commentary that your mom might have given you at five years old. So familiar patterns of feeling cherished, understood and satisfied ensued. Overall, you've managed to pick well, and have scored a true professional escort. Because these are all the feelings that a lonely person, who is frequently feeling abandoned would seek. He sounds like a keeper.

When you date, you are both going to be looking for the OTHER person, to be making the effort to provide a lot of familar sensory experiences. When either of you gets lazy, (or exhausted), the magic is gone. When you HIRE an experienced professional, you are guaranteed a magic show without needing to pull a rabbit put of the hat yourself, just pull out your wallet to say thanks for a wonderful time.

To be clear...ALL relationships are difficult. I ended up marrying one of my college friends (female). I never did meet a guy who I felt wouldn't ultimately abandon me when he got bored. The trick is to find someone who doesn't mind being bored with you.

This is a very helpful post, thank you. 

On the dating in NYC issue, this is basically what my therapist said, and said my value system is different and I would be better suited to finding a place which mirrors those values. However, I pushed back, explaining that others here seem completely fine with dating, entering relationships etc, and therefore I don't understand what they are doing. The therapist warned me about not knowing the full picture of what is going on with their situation though, which is fair. However, I like to think the best of people, so then I always wonder. The men you describe I imagine are 'in the scene' but I have seen many on apps like Hinge who are not in these parties etc, or at work for example who are coupled up and more 'normal' so I'm unsure how they do it. At the end of the day, I still live here, am trying my best to live a full life as best as I can, and given my age also I am trying to not 'miss the boat' if that makes sense.

I guess, I'm also not delusional, and aware of the difficulties in the gay community, which is why my expectation is still not very high in terms of finding a partner. But that shouldn't exclude me from dating, experiencing intimacy and presence etc completely. The sad part is it does seem to be the case. 

Interesting on the provider reward. The comment of "why do you need to pay" didn't make me feel special, it confused me actually, and I wish he didn't say it. It actually made me think why are normal methods not working - even more than I normally do - hence I was confused. I guess I was just thrown off more because he showed 'interest' (even if fake) and this was a massage that escalated. I like your analogy about the magic show, made my chuckle, but is very accurate. 

Agreed on the boredom part and relationships being difficult. I am just not finding someone to even give me a shot in that sense, and unsure what to do about it. But your post did help me feel more settled with what happened now that I understand it better.

[lseactuary90]

2 hours ago, SirBillybob said:

If people opine that you are the reason for good things in your life it’s a judgement. It doesn’t seem judgemental because the implication is that you are laudable. If a chatroom member spontaneously posts success the response is typically that it’s deserved and it emanates from positives and strengths. You may blush but not discount the source (me, myself, I) that drove the outcome. It isn’t pathologically narcissistic to concede that you are the author of your success. Yet you won’t drill down too much to give credit to external factors unrelated to you. 

In contrast, any response containing the notion that you are the reason for a problem or deficit in life quality will seem judgemental, can sting and seem questionable. An entry about the lack of success is polarizing because attributing to you the reason for failure does seem judgemental. You split the response range, at risk of continuum oversimplification here, into harsh versus soothingly supportive. The latter has only been useful because it suggests you are worth the success (cliché encouragement). However, that alone doesn’t consider the ways in which one, consciously or not, is contributing to failure. The tendency is to externalize the variables impeding success. It isn’t without secondary gain as resentment may compromise function less so than sadness. The idea of personal deficits is naturally depressogenic. 

If you hadn’t been exposed to a set of ideas about how failure is what you sow then perhaps you yourself should have directed such notions to yourself. Even then, many would protest that you are being too hard on yourself. So why wouldn’t you label critique about your world view as inhospitable (rhetorical). Well-meaning holding back judgement is the current you must swim against. There may be value in criticism that comes across as harsh because it should be no more rejectable than salutations.

Red-faced with hackles up paradoxically challenges the concept of owning your fate. It’s as narcissistic as what pats on the back stimulate. Think about the contradiction. It’s remarkable how we’re hotwired to react. By this I mean the universal commonality of narcissism as opposed to clinically disordered. 

Your insight is fascinating and I didn't think of it this way. Will reflect. 

[pubic_assistance]

47 minutes ago, lseactuary90 said:

others here seem completely fine with dating, entering relationships etc, and therefore I don't understand what they are doing. The therapist warned me about not knowing the full picture of what is going on with their situation

You may be surprised to discover how shallow many gay male relationships really are in NYC. Many of the young guys who I know are constantly in rent-not-buy mode. Always one foot out the door and emotionally detachable in case of emergency.  Gay marriage is now as common as gay divorce. Boredom is an emotion that young gay men struggle with, and have little patience for. (Yes, I am generalizing)..but the generalization is not uncommon.

[lseactuary90]

2 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

You may be surprised to discover how shallow many gay male relationships really are in NYC. Many of the young guys who I know are constantly in rent-not-buy mode. Always one foot out the door and emotionally detachable in case of emergency.  Gay marriage is now as common as gay divorce. Boredom is an emotion that young gay men struggle with, and have little patience for. (Yes, I am generalizing)..but the generalization is not uncommon.

I am very aware: I speak to / know dozens of people like this, hence I tread carefully. I guess part of me just then wondered why I can't even find that lmao. But I am still human and want a cuddle or two you know? 

[topunderachiever]

2 minutes ago, lseactuary90 said:

But I am still human and want a cuddle or two you know? 

I've wondered from the start if you actually are not human.  

[pubic_assistance]

1 minute ago, lseactuary90 said:

I guess part of me just then wondered why I can't even find that

Sometimes what we seek in a relationship are too specific and too multifaceted.

 

[Archangel]

4 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

Have you taken the time to read, pause, and reflect on your own posts? Because frankly, they’re some of the most judgmental and condescending I’ve seen here — and that’s saying something.

I’m not surprised you feel that way. Many people feel that way about me until they take the time to actually get to know me. I have accepted that as part of who I am – judged a jerk until you actually know who I am.

The most engagement I get on this forum is when guys criticize me or tell me I’m wrong. Or the mods chastise me. When I have tried to post something “vulnerable,” it’s been largely ignored. I’m not a darling here – not an escort who needs worshiping and not someone who for whatever reason can disagree with other forum members from a bandwagon others want to jump on. I’m aware of that. 

Irrespective of all that, point is you shared an opinion. It’s not “truth.” It’s opinion – or observation, as you term it, under good construction and spin. Either way, whatever the case, your interpretation based on how you processed it. But it’s not “truth.” I disagree with it. And I don’t read the OP’s post(s) the way you do. I have sympathy and a degree of empathy for him. I don’t have a solution and I’m not going to offer one because, frankly, whatever I offer isn’t what’s at stake. Sometimes people just share to unburden themselves and they aren’t looking for people to “fix” their issues. They’re looking to know they aren’t alone and that someone actually hears their pain and actually cares about their situation. If you listen to the music behind the words, that’s how I read the OP’s post. Less about looking for anyone to fix it and more about understanding his own situation and seeing if others likewise identify. I didn’t read it as a cry for Mr. Fix-it.

But that’s my opinion. It might even be judgmental and condescending! I will wait to be told if it is…

[Archangel]

My experience has been that gay men who want a real connection are like a polished diamond in a coal heap – really hard to find but possible if they’re at the bottom of the sea in the wreckage of a steam powered luxury liner that sank. 

[lseactuary90]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

Sometimes what we seek in a relationship are too specific and too multifaceted.

 

The issue I face is the matches I get 'for free', most if not all of which seem like genuine non-options. I ran an experiment, by boosting my visibility on [an app], and seeing what came over a 48 hour period. I had close to 200 matches in that period (as in people who liked me, but I've yet to match with them) to see what I could 'get' and if I was genuinely being picky.

This was the breakdown:

A) 'In shape' white men who are married/in a relationship/taken emotionally -- about 25% 

B) Visiting (all races, mostly white) -- 20%

C) Black men who are bottom only or more on the feminine side -- about 15% 

D) 'In shape' white men, 40s, bi/gay and single but looking for a FWB/FB etc only -- 10% [little to no engagement beyond a hi and nude pic exchanges]

E) Old white men (I'm talking 65+ year olds, several 75+ year olds) -- about 10% 

F) Partnered (any other race) -- 10% 

G) Middle Eastern (closeted) straight men -- about 5% 

H) Obese 35+ year old women (no idea how this happened as I filter for men only) -- about 5%

As a mixed race (non-black), muscled, tall dude, who is vers, this is needless to say very dissapointing. How are any of these 'real' options that I could genuinely give a shot? 

Edited June 1 by lseactuary90

[jeezifonly]

Chemistry. It sometimes just happens without intent or purpose, and when the gorgeously satisfying reaction has run its course, we feel the absence of it. Recreating it is always a crap shoot, because we have no control over what changes may have happened to the key elements in the interim.

Can “chemistry” be bought? If so, can we tell the difference between the modified and the natural in what satisfaction is yielded? 

[lseactuary90]

8 minutes ago, jeezifonly said:

Chemistry. It sometimes just happens without intent or purpose, and when the gorgeously satisfying reaction has run its course, we feel the absence of it. Recreating it is always a crap shoot, because we have no control over what changes may have happened to the key elements in the interim.

Can “chemistry” be bought? If so, can we tell the difference between the modified and the natural in what satisfaction is yielded? 

Society doesn't allow things to be purely chemistry based though. I have heard so many stories (of particularly people of colour) being 'liked' and there being 'chemistry' with a man, but he cannot socially integrate them so will partner up with his clone, and keep the other guy on the side. If we lived in world where people were true to chemistry, I don't think we would have the mess we currently do. 

[ShortCutie7]

A lot of these gay men who seem to be in monogamous relationships are actually in open relationships (and may very well be lying to their friends and family about it)- I have come across so many app profiles of men I knew to be “happily taken” over the years… and they still are, but there’s more to it than meets the eye.

[lseactuary90]

1 minute ago, ShortCutie7 said:

A lot of these gay men who seem to be in monogamous relationships are actually in open relationships (and may very well be lying to their friends and family about it)- I have come across so many app profiles of men I knew to be “happily taken” over the years… and they still are, but there’s more to it than meets the eye.

Yup I know those people too. They are still 'committed' to someone though. 

[lseactuary90]

Just now, DunwoodyGuy said:

Lots of wisdom in this thread--both on your posts and the responses. But what's missing is acceptance, the what-ifs. What if your sex life with paid providers is just fine? What if you could normalize that and stop making it toxic in your mind? What if your dating life is okay, just as it is? What if YOU are okay, exactly as you are. What if you could accept yourself? As exactly the man you are, right now, today, along with your bad dates and paid providers? What if you normalized all that and said, "This is who I am, and it's okay"?

As Margo says to Eve, "You've got to stop thinking of yourself as one of the hundred neediest cases."

Because accepting my current state is very hard, being completely honest here, and therapy really isn't helping at all in this regard. But I totally get what you are saying and it is correct.

[LookingAround]

Great posts @lseactuary90. You seem like a smart and self-reflective and insightful guy. 
A few thoughts. 
First a couple of things jumped out at me in your posts. You mentioned you have yet to find someone who has "selected" you. It doesn't really work that way. You select each other and the "selection" works its way through a very gradual process so subtle you almost don't know it's happening till it has happened. 
You also mentioned your therapist blames a lot of this on nyc. That's nonsense. I, too, am a therapist/ psychologist in nyc and to blame it on nyc is to pass the buck. You might want to consider a break and interview other therapists. 
Some of the advice here has been good and some is full of stereotyping and homophobia. I'm sure you know who and what to ignore. You already wisely told one guy to fuck off. Good for you. He keeps jabbering but that's on him. 
Have you thought about asking the massage therapist out on a date? Just a crazy wild thought. 

Edited June 1 by LookingAround

[lseactuary90]

20 minutes ago, LookingAround said:

Great posts @lseactuary90. You seem like a smart and self-reflective and insightful guy. 
A few thoughts. 
First a couple of things jumped out at me in your posts. You mentioned you have yet to find someone who has "selected" you. It doesn't really work that way. You select each other and the "selection" works its way through a very gradual process so subtle you almost don't know it's happening till it has happened. 
You also mentioned your therapist blames a lot of this on nyc. That's nonsense. I, too, am a therapist/ psychologist in nyc and to blame it on nyc is to pass the buck. You might want to consider a break and interviewing other therapists. 
Some of the advice here has been good and some is full of stereotyping and homophobia. I'm sure you know who and what to ignore. You already wisely told one guy to fuck off. Good for you. He keeps jabbering but that's on him. 
Have you thought about asking the massage therapist out in a date? Just a crazy wild thought. 

Appreciate the compliment.

Sorry, I should have clarified the 'selection' comment. My understanding is through a hookup, or dating, or both, if they are coming back/you meet again, they are at least interested in you, and then things evolve and then eventually you more formally 'announce' you are boyfriends or the like. In my case, nothing seems to happen on the dating side of things (not even first dates) and hookups tend to just be that i.e one off. I've not been 'selected' in this way (and not also selected someone back as a result) and therefore have nothing to show for myself. If I continue with the same escort, this would be one of my rare [<5] experiences of a repeat [sexual] encounter with the same guy, which also brings up a whole bunch of feelings (i.e. I'm having to pay for a repeat so what does this say about me). 

The therapist can't find something 'wrong' with me, and therefore deflect a lot because they can't explain my situation (neither can dating coaches). I had the same issue in my hometown before I moved here. As the masseur/escort pointed out, on the surface of things, there is no 'reason' to not be into me (and I don't mean that superficially, I mean there is no massive red flag to be causing this level of rejection and disinterest in me as a person) but yet here we are. I have been through 4 different therapists (3 gay) during my time in NY and all eventually get to the same advice: "its not you". I have sympathy for them too. Check the post above about my 'matches'. That is not something a therapist can tackle really. If my funnel is poor, thats not really something they can help with logically if that makes sense? I am running out of therapists to explore in my network at this stage too and I honestly also don't feel like repeating myself over and over, only to be told exactly the same things. 

My own 2 cents tells me its systemic racism. There was a powerful video I saw about how dating apps basically tell you your market value in the marketplace you are in (that is not to be confused with the same value being worldwide, as it can change). If you look at the groups interested in me, it is clear I'm towards the bottom end of the spectrum, and this hurts a lot as my skin colour is not something I can change, and I've already done what I can to optimise for everything else. This isn't to say looks only matter, but really, look at the list, and what is realistic option from any of them, even if I am 'willing to compromise'. When I have raised this in therapy (even with my current POC therapist) they 'agree' but again, there are no solutions. If I am not seen as dating / bf / partner material by the population / place I live in, I can't do much about this. 

Yes, but he is a full time escort, and straight and the only person he has sex with outside of 'work' is a trans person (none of which I have the body parts for lol). In the future though, if I continue down the escort route, and the dude is gay, I will ask as I don't think this is a bad idea at all. This is also probably why he was more oblivious on the state of POC's (especially mixed guys like me) in the gay community and made the comment he did.

Edited June 1 by lseactuary90

[LookingAround]

Thanks for the great reply. I don't think there has to be something "wrong" with you to solve this issue. Maybe you need a social coach. In the business world we would find you an executive coach. In academia we would find you an academic coach. In sports an athletic coach. Why not a social coach for this?

I forgot the part about him being "straight" though I still think the idea is one to keep in mind as I see you are. 

[lseactuary90]

4 minutes ago, LookingAround said:

Thanks for the great reply. I don't think there has to be something "wrong" with you to solve this issue. Maybe you need a social coach. In the business world we would find you an executive coach. In academia we would find you an academic coach. In sports an athletic coach. Why not a social coach for this?

I forgot the part about him being "straight" though I still think the idea is one to keep in mind as I see you are. 

I did try dating coaches to help improve my profile, check the messages being sent etc. One refunded in complete bafflement why my profile wasn't attracting better 'leads' and the other just brushed me off with 'it just takes one' comments which clearly wasn't helpful. In another case, he said 'I would date you' (he was being nice not actually offering just to be clear, as I 'spoke well') and then blamed racism also. Open to trying a social coach if you know someone who can help as I'm always open to trying things.

I would also add, I do make myself accessible in parties, clubs etc also, where there is no 'profile' per say. It is the same outcome - hookup / number exchange / no reciprocated interest beyond that event or time. I don't know why I even bother tbh.

Also, just to put it out there, I've had I think 3 one night sleepovers in my life as a gay man. Nothing else even close to the intimacy I got through the masseur/escort. Its really bad imo. So now I need to earn more money to even hire someone to spend the night? This sounds like a sinking ship. 

Edited June 1 by lseactuary90

[LookingAround]

I don't think you need a dating coach. You need a social coach imho. Big diff. 

[lseactuary90]

3 minutes ago, LookingAround said:

I don't think you need a dating coach. You need a social coach imho. Big diff. 

Do you mean like this? https://www.droshea.com/social-skills.html

If so, I did actually speak to this particular provider, and they said I don't seem to have a social skill issue 😕 so recommended standard therapy which is what I am doing now (or group therapy which I also tried and generally didn't find it helpful). 

If you have a recommendation, please do share. 

Edited June 1 by lseactuary90

[LookingAround]

Yes but this seems too basic for you. You need the super advanced version lol. 

[Wings246]

On 5/31/2025 at 2:59 PM, lseactuary90 said:

In that space, with him, I melted.
I was soft, present, sensual, alive.
I liked who I was in that moment.
And that version of me doesn’t come out

Disclaimer: I have zero romantic experience whatsoever and I'm very, very new to his "hobby" (as some of the members here call it).  I'm your direct opposite: short & very unattractive & much older than you.  So I don't even know if I'm qualified to respond.  But those 4 sentences you wrote struck me as I feel more or less the same way (when I'm in a paid situation).  A different version of myself -- that I don't know exists -- comes out.  "Soft, present, sensual, alive" are understatements.  I LOVED (not just liked) who I was in that moment.  It's both astonishing and scary to discover an alternative persona just as though I have dissociative identity disorder.

I can't help but wonder (for myself and for you, of course): is this the version that the world needs to see in order for meaningful, romantic, and intimate relationships to materialize?