RIP Pope Francis

[CuriousByNature]

The Vatican has announced that the 88-year old pontiff passed away this morning at 7:35 local time.  He was the first non-European pope in almost 1300 years, and apparently almost three-quarters of the eligible Cardinals who could become the next Pope had been appointed by Francis.  It will be interesting if the next Pope has a vision that aligns with that of Francis, or not.

 

 

 

Edited April 21 by CuriousByNature

[MikeBiDude]

He was also the first ever Jesuit to be Pope. 

[+ BOZO T CLOWN]

What exactly is the logic behind the rule that states that Cardinals over 80 years cannot vote for the new Pope? Wouldn't they want seasoned, experienced Cardinals to be part of the process?  Rather than only younger, newly appointed, less experienced Cardinals?

BTC
🤡
 

[+ Charlie]

35 minutes ago, BOZO T CLOWN said:

What exactly is the logic behind the rule that states that Cardinals over 80 years cannot vote for the new Pope? Wouldn't they want seasoned, experienced Cardinals to be part of the process?  Rather than only younger, newly appointed, less experienced Cardinals?

BTC
🤡
 

I don't think that there are many "young" cardinals, and I don't think that experience as a cardinal has much to do (theoretically at least) with qualification to choose a pope. Certainly when the rule was made, there were probably very few cardinals over the age of 80, and those there were may very well have been considered too mentally and physically challenged to participate. I have recent experience being summoned for jury duty, and the form allows me to choose to be excused if I am over 70, without having to get verification from a doctor that I am unable to participate.

Edited April 21 by Charlie

[dutchal]

1 hour ago, BOZO T CLOWN said:

What exactly is the logic behind the rule that states that Cardinals over 80 years cannot vote for the new Pope? Wouldn't they want seasoned, experienced Cardinals to be part of the process?  Rather than only younger, newly appointed, less experienced Cardinals?

BTC
🤡
 

Here's the history of the rule, which dates from 1970.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingravescentem_aetatem

In prior times, when life expectancy was shorter, it was less likely that physical health would outlast mental health to the extent it happens in modern times.  The rule is probably, to some extent, a recognition of that current reality.  One concern is public confidence in the result of the conclave.  Of the current cardinals 115 out of 252 are 80 or older.  One thing the church does not need is a sentiment among its believers that the product of a conclave is the product of senility, even if it's clearly the case that some (but clearly not all) people retain full mental faculties into their 90s or more.

Also, because clergy at all levels are expected to resign at 75 from their jobs (not their clerical status), keeping cardinals eligible until 80 takes adequate advantage of seasoning and experience before nature threatens mental capacity.  It is admittedly an arbitrary line, but substituting a case-by-case determination of eligibility would threaten to bring too much subjectivity, or at least perceived subjectivity, into the process.  Also, the cardinals who are ineligible to vote can still take part in the discussion meetings that happen before the conclave itself and share their views, so their wisdom is not entirely excluded from the process.

[dutchal]

4 hours ago, CuriousByNature said:

The Vatican has announced that the 88-year old pontiff passed away this morning at 7:35 local time.  He was the first non-European pope in almost 1300 years, and apparently almost three-quarters of the eligible Cardinals who could become the next Pope had been appointed by Francis.  It will be interesting if the next Pope has a vision that aligns with that of Francis, or not.

 

 

 

There is an old saying:  "After a fat pope, a skinny pope."  In other words, the conclaves have tended to elect a successor who is something of a contrast with his predecessor. even if dominated by cardinals appointed by the just deceased pontiff.  The conclave that elected Francis was made up of an overwhelming majority of cardinals appointed by the conservatives John Paul II and Benedict XVI. 

This is echoed by the Pope Benedict character in the film "Two Popes", addressing the Bergoglio (later Francis) character:  "There's a saying:  'God always corrects one pope by presenting the world with another pope.’ I should . . . I’d like to see my correction.”

[dutchal]

A few of the best articles on the papabile, although remember another old saying:  Enter the conclave a pope, exit the conclave a cardinal:

https://www.reuters.com/world/who-might-succeed-pope-francis-some-possible-candidates-2025-04-21/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-death-next-cardinal-replacement-succession-b2736606.html

https://uscatholic.org/articles/202503/the-12-cardinals-who-might-succeed-pope-francis/

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20250421-the-papabili-15-potential-successors-to-pope-francis

https://apnews.com/article/next-pope-contenders-list-101d68d61be2401a85310e34b45371a9

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/21/world/europe/next-pope-francis-candidates.html

 

 

Edited April 21 by dutchal

[TruthBTold]

I believe the only good Pope is an Italian one because Italians tend to be less strict in their beliefs 😄.  While Francis was brought up in Argentina he was born in Italy.  His parents fled fascism and went to Argentina with Francis.  Many Italians went to Argentina (particularly Buenos Aires).  The same with Italians who tried to enter the United States.  They then went to Argentina instead.  I have cousins who have lived in Buenos Aires since the 1920s.  

Edited April 22 by TruthBTold

[Cooper]

The Oscar nominated movie “Conclave”  came out around the time Pope Francis became seriously ill. The movie did a wonderful job in depicting the traditions that are followed once a Pope passes. 

[+ Lucky]

36 minutes ago, Cooper said:

The Oscar nominated movie “Conclave”  came out around the time Pope Francis became seriously ill. The movie did a wonderful job in depicting the traditions that are followed once a Pope passes. 

The movie has been available for rent on Amazon, but as of today it is free for Prime members.

[dutchal]

2 hours ago, Cooper said:

The Oscar nominated movie “Conclave”  came out around the time Pope Francis became seriously ill. The movie did a wonderful job in depicting the traditions that are followed once a Pope passes. 

It's worth watching for the cast alone, but is also great drama.  It is largely accurate in its depiction of the procedures.

[Peter Eater]

20 hours ago, BOZO T CLOWN said:

What exactly is the logic behind the rule that states that Cardinals over 80 years cannot vote for the new Pope? Wouldn't they want seasoned, experienced Cardinals to be part of the process?  Rather than only younger, newly appointed, less experienced Cardinals?

BTC
🤡
 

Pope Paul VI introduced the rule more than 50 years ago. The rule, which went into effect Jan. 1, 1970, increased the chances for the next Pope to be non‐Italian and, possibly, a progressive. The rule eliminated 25 Cardinals who on Jan. 1 would be at least 80 from any conclave convened after that date to choose a new head of the Roman Catholic Church.

Eleven of those Cardinals were Italians. Most of these and of the 14 non‐Italian Cardinals in the group were rightwing conservatives. Francis was the first to be liberal and non-European, so it’s slowly but surely working as hoped. With luck, the next Pope will also be liberal and non-European, building on Francis’ legacy.

Edited April 22 by Peter Eater

[dutchal]

Here's another list of papabile with some different names on it:  https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/22/world/pope-francis-successor-frontrunners-intl-dg/index.html

 

[+ José Soplanucas]

19 hours ago, dutchal said:

There is an old saying:  "After a fat pope, a skinny pope."  In other words, the conclaves have tended to elect a successor who is something of a contrast with his predecessor. even if dominated by cardinals appointed by the just deceased pontiff.  The conclave that elected Francis was made up of an overwhelming majority of cardinals appointed by the conservatives John Paul II and Benedict XVI. 

This is echoed by the Pope Benedict character in the film "Two Popes", addressing the Bergoglio (later Francis) character:  "There's a saying:  'God always corrects one pope by presenting the world with another pope.’ I should . . . I’d like to see my correction.”

Of course, right now everything is just speculation, but history proves you are right. However, one of Bergoglio's strong points was his political wisdom. Without outstanding political skills, he would have failed on confronting Vatican corrupted traditional elite. Part of his wisdom is leaving a Collegium Cardinalium with 70% of Cardinals supportive of his policies. 

There is a very strong chance the next pope will be less progressive than Bergoglio, but there is also a very strong chance he will not undo his reforms.

[Cooper]

Moderator’s Reminder

Gentlemen, You know our Guidelines. Let’s keep political opinions out of this discussion. All political comments will be removed. 

[Stormy]

My choices for the next pope: 

1.  Cardinal Tagle (Philippines)

2.  Cardinal Zuppi (Italy)

3. Cardinal Aveline (France) 

 

Since it’s against the rules to discuss politics on this siite I’ll just say these 3 religious leaders are more “open minded”

 

[jeezifonly]

On 4/21/2025 at 10:07 AM, BOZO T CLOWN said:

What exactly is the logic behind the rule that states that Cardinals over 80 years cannot vote for the new Pope? Wouldn't they want seasoned, experienced Cardinals to be part of the process?  Rather than only younger, newly appointed, less experienced Cardinals?

BTC
🤡
 

As the Dowager Countess of Grantham told Tom Branson, “I know it doesn't make sense but if I were to look for logic I would not look for it among the English upper class”

The same sentiment applies to any church government, I believe. 

[mike carey]

22 hours ago, TruthBTold said:

I believe the only good Pope is an Italian one because Italians tend to be less strict in their beliefs 😄.  While Francis was brought up in Argentina he was born in Italy.  His parents fled fascism and went to Argentina with Francis.  Many Italians went to Argentina (particularly Buenos Aires).  The same with Italians who tried to enter the United States.  They then went to Argentina instead.  I have cousins who have lived in Buenos Aires since the 1920s.  

The late Holy Father was born in Buenos Aires, his father was Italian by birth, but his mother, like him was Argentine. Not all diaspora Italians hold to their Italian identity the way that many in the US appear to do. Few in Australia would identify as Italian, most think of themselves as Australians first and foremost, while retaining some cultural practices. Some prefer to marry other Italian-Australians. I can't speak to Argentines of Italian descent think of themselves.

[Luv2play]

I have read in the mainstream press that Francis was born in Italy and only went to Argentina as a child.

[+ José Soplanucas]

Bergoglio was born in Buenos Aires. Anyway, place of birth is meaningless, what matters is life experience. I addressed that in a post that was deleted and I am not in the mood for self censoring a rewrite.

[Becket]

Think I read the saying goes, "If the last Pope was fat, the next Pope will be skinny."  Which, if holds true, means the Catholic church will elect a more conservative fellow. But, who knows. Interestingly, Amazon Prime said their streaming of the movie Convclave has greatly increased in the past few days.

Edited April 23 by Becket
punctuation

[marylander1940]

On 4/21/2025 at 1:07 PM, BOZO T CLOWN said:

What exactly is the logic behind the rule that states that Cardinals over 80 years cannot vote for the new Pope? Wouldn't they want seasoned, experienced Cardinals to be part of the process?  Rather than only younger, newly appointed, less experienced Cardinals?

BTC
🤡
 

That's the best you can come up with? 

Why women can't vote? Why are they second class members of the church? I think those are better questions hopefully they will be addressed by the next Pope.

Why priest can't marry like they do in most faiths?  That would certainly help the demographics of Europe among other beneficial things.

Edited April 23 by marylander1940

[marylander1940]

Back to subject he was a good man who said many things but didn't change much what should have changed a long time ago.

I am a big fan of Jesuits as teachers, and I admire their actions in the missions in South America and California but I don't agree much with how they see poverty as something to be valued. 

 

Edited April 23 by marylander1940

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

4 hours ago, marylander1940 said:

Why women can't vote? Why are they second class members of the church? ...Why priest can't marry like they do in most faiths?

Answer: Because it would go against their religion. 

My condolences go out to the Catholic community in this time of loss.  I will be at the Vatican later next month, and it will be moving to see the respect of the pilgrims who come to Rome to pay their tribute.

Edited April 24 by Vegas_Millennial

[marylander1940]

6 minutes ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

Those would go against their religion. 

 My condolences go out to the Catholic community in this time of loss.

Mass used to be in Latin, now it's in the local language. 

In 1139 celibacy was adapted in a mandatory way. 

Things change!

 

Edited April 24 by marylander1940
celibacy addendum