Where Are My Mathematicians And Logicians...

[+ Gar1eth]

Or those with a lot of Common Sense?

 

Someone posted this on FB.  I think I know the answer. But I'm not sure. AI on google gave me what I think is a wrong answer. So where else would I come but to my buds here on the Forum?
 

So here it goes. May the best logician win. 
 

I’m in second place on a race, and you pass me. What place are you in?

[+ Gar1eth]

No one has an answer?

I think I'd be in second place. But I'm not sure if I'm making some kind of logical fallacy or not. 

Edited March 13 by Gar1eth

[+ sniper]

Second is correct.

[+ sniper]

I mean there is potentially some microscopic time window ambiguity in the "and" that could make a case for first, but the most reasonable interpretation of the  phrasing is that I am in second place and THEN you pass me.

And stuff like this is why writing specifications for computer programmers is often surprisingly challenging.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

6 minutes ago, sniper said:

I mean there is potentially some microscopic time window ambiguity in the "and" that could make a case for first, but the most reasonable interpretation of the  phrasing is that I am in second place and THEN you pass me.

And stuff like this is why writing specifications for computer programmers is often surprisingly challenging.

Agree 💯 

This is why a good English/Grammar education is so important for things typically considered "math".

[samhexum]

As @MysticMenace might say:

 

[+ purplekow]

He was in third you were in second.  Now he is in second and you are in third.  The good news is that you now have two asses to watch instead of one.  

[mike carey]

2 hours ago, Gar1eth said:

No one has an answer?

I think I'd be in second place. But I'm not sure if I'm making some kind of logical fallacy or not. 

In your answer you switched which of the racers each pronoun applied to between the question and the answer. The question posed had "I" in second place and "you" passing "I", that would put "I" in third place. @purplekow's answer is correct.

[+ Gar1eth]

I may have screwed up in the original question and answer.
 

Let me get rid of the pesky pronouns.  

 

A is in second place. B passes him (or her with deference to @FreshFluff)

 

What place is B in?

[mike carey]

If you had the question correct in how you quoted it in your first post, then the pronoun confusion may have been the point of how it was written. There is also a possible tense issue that @sniper identified above. The initial situation is in the present tense, and the 'after' situation is also in the present tense. Logically the two statements can be in the present tense but the statement 'you pass me' means they are at different times, but a pedant could argue that both being in the present tense means that they were both at the same time (that's not how narrative use of tense works in English, and it's illogical, but pedants be pedants, and the pedantry may also have been part of the intent of the question).

If you break down the question to make the sequence and who is whom explicit:

• I am in second place
• THEN you pass me
• What place are you then in?

..then the answer becomes clearer, but the answer is 'I am in second' and the "I" in that answer is the person who was "you" when they passed "me", not the "I" in the first statement.

Clear as mud?

[+ sync]

[+ ApexNomad]

1 hour ago, Gar1eth said:

I may have screwed up in the original question and answer.
 

Let me get rid of the pesky pronouns.  

 

A is in second place. B passes him (or her with deference to @FreshFluff)

 

What place is B in?

B is now in second place because B took A’s position.

A gets bumped to third, but B is still behind whoever was in first place.

[+ Gar1eth]

6 minutes ago, ApexNomad said:

B is now in second place because B took A’s position.

A gets bumped to third, but B is still behind whoever was in first place.

Thanks. That was my thought too. 

[+ JamesB]

If you're in second place in a race and I pass you, I take your position. So Second is the correct answer.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

5 hours ago, mike carey said:

In your answer you switched which of the racers each pronoun applied to between the question and the answer. The question posed had "I" in second place and "you" passing "I", that would put "I" in third place. @purplekow's answer is correct.

This problem becomes even more confusing if the runners switch their preferred pronouns throughout the timeframe of the race 😆 

[mike carey]

Just now, Vegas_Millennial said:

This problem becomes even more confusing if the runners switch their preferred pronouns throughout the timeframe of the race 😆 

Thankfully 'you' and 'I' are gender neutral, so that at least removes one layer of confusion!

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

4 hours ago, mike carey said:

• I am in second place
• THEN you pass me
• What place are you then in?

..then the answer becomes clearer, but the answer is 'I am in second' and the "I" in that answer is the person who was "you" when they passed "me", not the "I" in the first statement.

Clear as mud?

What place is zem in?  Is zem in front of or behind zme and zu? 😆 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

Just now, mike carey said:

Thankfully 'you' and 'I' are gender neutral...

Speak for yourself!  "I" am male 😆 

[CuriousByNature]

First of all, I would never be doing as well as 2nd place unless it was a two-person race.  

 

[jayjaycali]

I think a mathematician would suggest it should be 'you and only you pass me'.  Without that, the passer could be part of a group who passes the passee and the place of the passer (& passee) is not determinable, even though 'you pass me' remains true. 

Edited March 14 by jayjaycali

[TonyDown]

You are in 3rd place until the moment you overtake me.

After overtaking me, then in 2nd.

Side comment:  Has Facebook become one gigantic pile of garbage?  

 

[+ Gar1eth]

2 hours ago, jayjaycali said:

I think a mathematician would suggest it should be 'you and only you pass me'.  Without that, the passer could be part of a group who passes the passee and the place of the passer (& passee) is not determinable, even though 'you pass me' remains true. 

 

[Lotus-eater]

On 3/13/2025 at 2:29 PM, Gar1eth said:

I may have screwed up in the original question and answer.
Let me get rid of the pesky pronouns.  

A is in second place. B passes him (or her with deference to @FreshFluff)

What place is B in?

But A's pronouns are first place/second place. So B passes second place and B is now second place, which is not possible. H/T Abbott & Costello.

[+ Gar1eth]

On 3/13/2025 at 4:29 PM, Gar1eth said:

I may have screwed up in the original question and answer.
 

Let me get rid of the pesky pronouns.  

 

A is in second place. B passes him (or her with deference to @FreshFluff)

 

What place is B in?

 

4 minutes ago, Lotus-eater said:

But A's pronouns are first place/second place. So B passes second place and B is now second place, which is not possible. H/T Abbott & Costello.

Who's on first?

[Lotus-eater]

19 hours ago, Gar1eth said:

 

Who's on first?

Yes.😁