Deposits should be required

[pubic_assistance]

11 hours ago, mike carey said:

Any providers who reluctantly start; know that it's widely seen as a bad idea, so don't need people to tell them again, loudly.

Thank you @mike carey

I hear a voice of reason in this thread from some of the other providers.

You need to learn to "read the room".

Stop the freaks who are sexting with you by insisting a first timer pick up a phone and have a conversation.

I am married with kids myself...so I completely understand discretion. But if a mature adult man hasnt figured out a way to work out his method of discretion around his relationship...then THAT alone is a red flag right there.

@Vin Marco seems to have figured it out and limited his exposure. I suggest his advice be read more than once and some time spent applying it to your own business model. As Mike pointed out..I won't waste time repeating the obvious. Time to move on to LISTENING to the very good advice being given and using it.

Edited December 22, 2024 by pubic_assistance
spelling

[pubic_assistance]

16 minutes ago, maninsoma said:

One of the issues involved that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that if you're talking about a deposit for an escort service, a lot of clients don't want there to be a "paper trail" (well, it would actually be an electronic trail) of them sending money to someone for a service that isn't legal where they live.

[Daniel84]

What stressed me out the most is I am not escorting to padden my pockets and buying expensive cloths ect. My aunt has stage 4 cancer and I am helping my parents with her care. when clients schedule and then do not show up. It isn’t just affecting me it’s affecting the people I care about that I’m trying to help.

[+ KensingtonHomo]

48 minutes ago, maninsoma said:

One of the issues involved that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that if you're talking about a deposit for an escort service, a lot of clients don't want there to be a "paper trail" (well, it would actually be an electronic trail) of them sending money to someone for a service that isn't legal where they live.

I doubt there's a genuine fear about a "paper trail" in terms of legality. People are sending each other money via Venmo, Paypal, etc. for all sorts of things (concert tickets, therapy, personal training, vacation costs). A few hundred dollars isn't going to trigger anything. 

I suspect the real concern is for people who are stepping out on their "monogamous" partner, which is wrong and you shouldn't do. 

[Daniel84]

I will be taken Vins advice. First time clients would have to be confirmed via phone call. if a client does book multiple hours, then a deposit would be needed. 

I’m glad this conversation didn’t turn into drama. I appreciate the civility between the client and the provider in having a meaningful conversation that affected both parties positively or negatively.

Edited December 22, 2024 by Daniel84

[Vin Marco]

1 hour ago, KensingtonHomo said:

Same. I'm always willing to send $25 to lock in an appointment with a new provider. More than that gives me pause, only because I did a larger deposit once and then had to cancel. This was due to a change in business travel beyond my control. I told the provider more than 48 hours in advance that I had to cancel and please return my deposit. He never did, which I've shared here. 

My advice to @Daniel84 is to institute a modest deposit for new clients and see if it hurts your bookings. If it doesn't and decreases your no shows, then it's worth doing. 

Respectfully, doesn't asking for the deposit back   defeat the purpose of the deposit in the first place? I'm doing my best to see this from the perspective of people who insist on receiving deposits prior to meeting people... I'm guessing they ask for the deposit in case for whatever reason a client isn't able to keep the commitment the fellow asking for the the deposit isn't totally out when that occurs. If the deposit is to be given back when a client can't keep the commitment, what's the purpose for the deposit to begin with?
 
Trust and believe me, deposits for day to day business are messy and just not conducive to a fulfilling, successful,  long  escorting career.  

I cannot control the behavior of others... people who flake, cancel, cancel last minute, tire kick, haggle, will always exist.... I can only control how I deal  with, react or don't react to those types. I've already shared what works for me.  "Control the controllables"
I probably will not be commenting further on this beat to death topic not even if a new topic arrises "should deposits be refundable?" 🫠😵‍💫

Edited December 22, 2024 by Vin Marco

[+ KensingtonHomo]

6 minutes ago, Vin Marco said:

Respectfully, doesn't asking for the deposit back   defeat the purpose of the deposit in the first place? I'm doing my best to see this from the perspective of people who insist on receiving deposits prior to meeting people... I'm guessing they ask for the deposit in case for whatever reason a client isn't able to keep the commitment the fellow asking for the the deposit isn't totally out when that occurs. If the deposit is to be given back when a client can't keep the commitment, what's the purpose for the deposit to begin with?

In my view, the deposit is to hold the time so I don't flake on them at the last minute and they miss other business. I knew and told the provider more than two days in advance that I couldn't make the time anymore. If I do that with my trainer, there's no charge because they can give someone else my spot. Whereas a week ago, I overslept and missed my appointment but I still paid them for their time. 

[pubic_assistance]

22 minutes ago, Daniel84 said:

What stressed me out the most is I am not escorting to padden my pockets

Lots of guys who escort/massage do so as their main source of income. You don't need to convince anyone here of the responsibilities of "bringing home the bacon". We get it.

But ..you need to realize that ALL people who run a small business do so by accepting ALL the risk that comes with that business model. There are people who fail because they keep doing the same thing over and over and don't spend time analyzing WHY they are failing and changing how they do business (We all know who I am talking about).

I hope the advice given by the professionals is helpful and adaptable to your situation.

As a client I also spend time vetting a potential hire by analyzing the tone of the communication and thinking carefully about the type of person I am going to be meeting. You need to weed out the weirdos and focus on the nice guys and try to establish a regular relationship so you're less exposed to flakes and fakes.

[Ali Gator]

24 minutes ago, Daniel84 said:

What stressed me out the most is I am not escorting to padden my pockets and buying expensive cloths ect. My aunt has stage 4 cancer and I am helping my parents with her care. when clients schedule and then do not show up. It isn’t just affecting me it’s affecting the people I care about that I’m trying to help.

Some friendly, experienced advice to share:

Whether you're in business for yourself as a provider, a hairdresser, a seamstress, a mechanic, a restaurant owner, a retail owner, pet groomer, lawyer, doctor, etc. - you NEED to separate your personal life (and responsibilities) from your business life. 

A client engages your services and pays you for what is offered. What you do with that money is up to you - the client has no more connection to it once it leaves his pocket.  You can buy new clothes, buy a new car, pay your bills, pay your rent, or help a relative.

Likewise, the client who cancels or is a 'no show' is not responsible for your financial obligations (your rent, your cc debt, your car loan, your student loans, caring for a relative, etc) , so please learn how to separate the two.

Most importantly, remember that when you are in business for yourself, it does not guarantee you a steady income - or any income at all. Many are not in business for themselves because they can't take that weekly gamble, and therefore work for a company where they are guaranteed a weekly income. 

Just some advice to share...

[maninsoma]

35 minutes ago, KensingtonHomo said:

I doubt there's a genuine fear about a "paper trail" in terms of legality. People are sending each other money via Venmo, Paypal, etc. for all sorts of things (concert tickets, therapy, personal training, vacation costs). A few hundred dollars isn't going to trigger anything. 

I suspect the real concern is for people who are stepping out on their "monogamous" partner, which is wrong and you shouldn't do. 

I'm not necessarily saying the concern is legitimate.  I think the odds of getting busted as a "john" are very low after simply sending a deposit to an escort.  But don't you think some people just don't want any concrete evidence that they paid for the service of an escort?  What if the escort gets busted and then the police look through that escort's records to see who has been sending them money, and then the cops try to go after those people as well?  I don't think it's completely out of the realm of possibility, which is why I think some clients just want to pay cash in person so there's no concrete evidence that they paid the escort.  There is no comparison to the other items in your list.  It isn't illegal to go to a concert, engage in psychotherapy or personal training, or to take a vacation.  Almost everywhere in the USA it is illegal to pay someone for sexual services.

I do agree that the bigger concern some people may have is their activity being discovered by a sexual partner, but I don't think clients' concerns about legal problems is non-existent.

[+ KensingtonHomo]

3 minutes ago, maninsoma said:

don't you think some people just don't want any concrete evidence that they paid for the service of an escort?  What if the escort gets busted and then the police look through that escort's records to see who has been sending them money, and then the cops try to go after those people as well?

Sure, people don't want evidence. But I suspect that's more of a guilty conscience than a real legal threat. An electronic funds transfer that says "Sunday" between two people can be chalked up to so many things that are not illegal. How would a prosecutor begin to prove that your transfer was for sex? And most sex work related arrests are related to wanting to "clean up" at part of a city. Being a public figure could be an added threat because enemies may try to use ti against you. 

[pubic_assistance]

22 minutes ago, maninsoma said:

don't you think some people just don't want any concrete evidence that they paid for the service of an escort? 

ABSOLUTELY

Some of these guys are incredibly naive about the risks you take in being so cavalier about engaging in a hobby that is still quite illegal in the US.

I won't get into a political discussion..but everyone needs to be aware that anything that's illegal, yet mostly ignored, CAN be weaponized at any moment when the winds change direction in your country, state or city's legislature.

 

[pubic_assistance]

17 minutes ago, KensingtonHomo said:

How would a prosecutor begin to prove that your transfer was for sex?

The Governor of New York was prosecuted (and publically humiliated)  using the Mann-Act for hiring a female sex worker from another State.

Yes...most of the time nobody cares. But you never know when somebody is going to have an "axe to grind"...you don't want documented evidence easily available.

[+ KensingtonHomo]

1 minute ago, pubic_assistance said:

The Governor of New York was prosecuted (and publically humiliated)  using the Mann-Act for hiring a female sex worker from another State.

Yes, after Ken Langone and other wealthy scumbags hired detectives and pursued Spitzer because he was going to put an end to their illegal shenanigans and make them pay taxes. 

[TallMuscl37]

16 hours ago, HaremOfBoys said:

 

Based on the many things in news and politics going on right now: My response to that is people need to stop being so eager to meet with these guys claiming to be from other countries, specifically from places like South America or Cuba. People overlook the local American guys, want to ignore Black escorts who used to be able to do better in many cities: in favor of these South American fly by nights promising the world, and then wonder why they get scammed:

Are international thieves exploiting tourist visas to target pro-athletes' homes?

WWW.NBCNEWS.COM

---

NBA and NFL players have been recently targeted by brazen burglars who might be in the United States on...

The NBA memo, citing FBI intelligence, specifically linked the crimes to “transnational South American Theft Groups” that target “professional athletes and other high-net-worth individuals.”

And telling providers to not accept deposits IS NOT the solution. In the cases you presented, I have to wonder what real background you seen in the Ad, to verify it was a legit provider. Someone saying they’re willing to “do anything” is fraudulent from the start. No boundaries/rules=easy bait.

[pubic_assistance]

1 minute ago, KensingtonHomo said:

Yes, after Ken Langone and other wealthy scumbags hired detectives and pursued Spitzer

We can't discuss politics here.

But the point is that anyone can be at risk of prosecution when someone is out to get you. Therfore NO paper trail should ever be left behind when it comes to escorting.

[Ali Gator]

A flip side to this coin...

Late yesterday afternoon, I got in touch with 'Alexo' who was visiting my area for the weekend, leaving on Monday. Pleasant enough texts (my first was questions about his erotic massage, price, where he was staying while the second was figuring out a time that worked) which he kindly answered my few questions. I was to meet him at noon today (Sunday). 

In the meantime, I heard from another visiting masseur letting me know he was in town for last night - early Monday morning. He's one of my favorites, and I was sorry to tell him I wasn't available to meet this weekend.

This morning at 8 am, I texted Alex to confirm our noon appointment at his hotel. Heard nothing back. I texted again to confirm our noon meeting at 10 am - nothing. I check his ad, and sure enough he's moved on to another state (I guess last night?). Didn't cancel with me, didn't respond to texts - the masseur just ghosted me. I guess he considers this 'professional behavior' for a business man. 

I contacted my 'favorite traveler' and unfortunately, his schedule is booked. So now I'm waiting to hear back from a new provider traveling in my area. 

Bottom line:  Maybe masseur Alexo should have given ME a deposit for our appointment, since he has wasted my time ? 😬

[Daniel84]

59 minutes ago, Ali Gator said:

 

Most importantly, remember that when you are in business for yourself, it does not guarantee you a steady income - or any income at all. Many are not in business for themselves because they can't take that weekly gamble, and therefore work for a company where they are guaranteed a weekly income. 

Just some advice to share...

Even with a 9-to-5 job, there’s no guarantee that the job will still be there tomorrow. In my opinion, someone who’s self-employed needs to be adaptable and flexible to survive in today’s ever-changing times. My steady income comes from my customer service skills and my strong work ethic. Unlike many other providers, if a client books a one-hour appointment, they get exactly one hour and I would not short change them time. 

Massage and escorting as created so many opportunities for myself. I would be forever grateful for these opportunities. I have a few clients that have become very good friends and two of them actually came to my wedding.

 

[TallMuscl37]

4 hours ago, Ali Gator said:

A flip side to this coin...

Late yesterday afternoon, I got in touch with 'Alexo' who was visiting my area for the weekend, leaving on Monday. Pleasant enough texts (my first was questions about his erotic massage, price, where he was staying while the second was figuring out a time that worked) which he kindly answered my few questions. I was to meet him at noon today (Sunday). 

In the meantime, I heard from another visiting masseur letting me know he was in town for last night - early Monday morning. He's one of my favorites, and I was sorry to tell him I wasn't available to meet this weekend.

This morning at 8 am, I texted Alex to confirm our noon appointment at his hotel. Heard nothing back. I texted again to confirm our noon meeting at 10 am - nothing. I check his ad, and sure enough he's moved on to another state (I guess last night?). Didn't cancel with me, didn't respond to texts - the masseur just ghosted me. I guess he considers this 'professional behavior' for a business man. 

I contacted my 'favorite traveler' and unfortunately, his schedule is booked. So now I'm waiting to hear back from a new provider traveling in my area. 

Bottom line:  Maybe masseur Alexo should have given ME a deposit for our appointment, since he has wasted my time ? 😬

Sir, by all due respect: based on the story you’ve described: You wasted your own damn time. You’re going around reaching out to strangers at the last minute (even if it’s the next day, it’s still last minute for some), but you could have first reached out to your reliable favorite instead. 

Or you could have accepted the booking when your regular contacted you, and offered the other a small cancellation fee as a courtesy. Why would you trade a reliable person for something speculative?

When you try to play the field and be slick, it can bite ya in the ass. Too many clients are probably doing the same. You’re definitely not entitled to a deposit though. Since you like to compare our industry to other industries: what freelance or small business you know, is paying deposits TO clients? Name one. And while you’re at it, name another business that is sending out paid product in the mail or via NEXT DAY DELIVERY without any form of payment to confirm beforehand?

If you can do that: I will give you $100 🤣 

 

4 hours ago, Daniel84 said:

Even with a 9-to-5 job, there’s no guarantee that the job will still be there tomorrow. In my opinion, someone who’s self-employed needs to be adaptable and flexible to survive in today’s ever-changing times. My steady income comes from my customer service skills and my strong work ethic. Unlike many other providers, if a client books a one-hour appointment, they get exactly one hour and I would not short change them time. 

Massage and escorting as created so many opportunities for myself. I would be forever grateful for these opportunities. I have a few clients that have become very good friends and two of them actually came to my wedding.

 

Some people think they know everything, and want to stipulate how the business should compare and operate to others. In reality, it’s rather simple, as I explained in the post above yours. Some of these clients are busy playing games, and aren’t being honest with others. 
 

And even with deposits like I do, I still have to occasionally put sense to them. Some will give one, and not keep their word. Expecting the deposit to either cover the loss of funds, or be sufficient towards a session weeks later (it’s not).

Had someone text me this earlier this week. This guy is notorious for not keeping his appointments, even after confirming. Usually citing something with work/mood/timing/made other plans etc.

I finally told him I can’t be bothered (I even blocked him earlier this year, and he came back around AGAIN. Gave him a chance, does the same stuff AGAIN. Now he’s blocked AGAIN lol). This is not the energy I want during holidays, but some of these guys find arguing with sex workers entertaining I guess. Thats why in addition to deposits, I’ve had to add consultation fees because, texting some of them is too much work complimentary.

 

Edited December 22, 2024 by TallMuscl37

[Monarchy79]

14 hours ago, Daniel84 said:

High end barbers/ salons that are in demand require a card on file in case you don't show up. I am not sure where you live. I just got a haircut and a fade in LA and I had to put my credit card information down to book the session.

That’s a “hold”, but not a deposit. 
They will only charge a fee to the customer for a no show, but will not charge for a deposit in these cases. 
 

 

[Km411]

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

But the point is that anyone can be at risk of prosecution when someone is out to get you. Therfore NO paper trail should ever be left behind when it comes to escorting.

If folks here are that sensitive, best watch what you post on this forum; it’s evidence, too. And prosecutors won’t have a difficult time connecting it up.

[nate_sf]

2 hours ago, Ali Gator said:

Some friendly, experienced advice to share:

Whether you're in business for yourself as a provider, a hairdresser, a seamstress, a mechanic, a restaurant owner, a retail owner, pet groomer, lawyer, doctor, etc. - you NEED to separate your personal life (and responsibilities) from your business life. 

A client engages your services and pays you for what is offered. What you do with that money is up to you - the client has no more connection to it once it leaves his pocket.  You can buy new clothes, buy a new car, pay your bills, pay your rent, or help a relative.

Likewise, the client who cancels or is a 'no show' is not responsible for your financial obligations (your rent, your cc debt, your car loan, your student loans, caring for a relative, etc) , so please learn how to separate the two.

Most importantly, remember that when you are in business for yourself, it does not guarantee you a steady income - or any income at all. Many are not in business for themselves because they can't take that weekly gamble, and therefore work for a company where they are guaranteed a weekly income. 

Just some advice to share...

For what it's worth, this is why I've always had a regular payroll gig alongside my escort work (except for a few years in the early aughts). It inhibits flexibility and availability to travel, but at least I know basic needs will be met. Escort income can cover those surprise expenses, or make life easier in an expensive city like SF. Fortunately in the new world of being able to work remotely (at least some of the time), the ability to travel has become easier.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

15 hours ago, Daniel84 said:

Maybe I am a outliner but when I’m looking to book a massage I message one guy and wait for a response. If I don’t hear a response in a couple hours, then I’ll message somebody else. 

I am with you, @Daniel84.  I message only one provider at a time, and wait several hours before I reach out to another.  But, from what I have read on this forum over the years, it sounds like you and I are indeed outliers.

Edited December 22, 2024 by Vegas_Millennial

[+ ApexNomad]

7 minutes ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

I am with you, @Daniel84.  I message only one provider at a time, and wait several hours before I reach out to another.  But, from what I have read on this forum over the years, it sounds like you and I are indeed outliers.

That makes me an outlier too then. When I reach out to a provider, I stick to one until I hear back.

[TallMuscl37]

11 minutes ago, nate_sf said:

For what it's worth, this is why I've always had a regular payroll gig alongside my escort work (except for a few years in the early aughts). It inhibits flexibility and availability to travel, but at least I know basic needs will be met. Escort income can cover those surprise expenses, or make life easier in an expensive city like SF. Fortunately in the new world of being able to work remotely (at least some of the time), the ability to travel has become easier.

This is understandable, and I can see the benefits. But the time I had did a part time job in addition to this, I ended up leaving after a couple months I think. I was missing bookings, while expecting to meet the company deadlines. They also scheduled me from 3 to 9 pm, which is Prime time for when clients want bookings. A good paying job probably can be more secure, however there’s some gigs out there that can clash. I also know friends with regular and remote jobs, but instead of escorting: they’re just out fucking for free. Their 1 or 2 jobs is enough, than to add on the extra workload of trying to create a brand, be available short notice, being able to host last minute, having a clean apartment all the time, etc. 

So a regular payroll job is an option, but I don’t think it’s a solution to some client’s unreliable and sketchy behavior. There has to be more strategies to resolve that, than having a regular job. I would hate to have a regular job, AND deal with a bunch of timewasters after work.