Are you "gay"? Are you "queer"? What the hell are you?!

[+ Charlie]

15 hours ago, KrisParr said:

I came out to my parents and older brothers as gay when I was 19 after a semester of college. Their reaction was something, like, “oh, Kris, we’ve known for years. So where do you want to go for dinner?”
 

It was (and continues to be) a non-issue. Not much later, my uppity aunt asked my mom if I was gay. Her reply was, “oh, that? Yes, he is , but I’m concerned that he’s thinking of leaving Catholicism and becoming a Lutheran”

That story reminds me of one my old friend Harold told me. After his wife discovered that he had hired a provider, whom he found from this site, they decided to separate after more than 40 years of marriage. She called each of their three adult children and told them they had to come back home for a weekend for a serious family conference to explain why their parents were separating. His daughter, who lived hundreds of miles away, responded to her mother, "I'm not going all the way  back there if all you're planning to do is tell us that Daddy is gay. We figured that out a while ago."

[Guest]

3 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

... "Queer", however, is offensive I and I am saddened that young people who don't identify, sexually with mainstream people have embraced such a horrible term.  There are enough people on this planet who aren't hetero-normative, that they should  not feel the need to identify as strange, or bizarre.

I understand the baggage associated with that word. However, by saying that word in a normative way, we've taken a way the sting of the word. I definitely remember when that word was used as an insult. The f-word is still used, but when was the last time you heard someone fling the word "queer" as derogatory? If someone were to call me a queer, I'd say "Yeah, that's right!". Yet the f-word would still get me angry. I think it's great that we've removed the sting of the word queer. It may have started from that Josie Cotton song I posted earlier (Johnny Are You Queer?). I was going to UCLA then, and I remember the furor that song created for the Right at the time. People were picketing and boycotting radio stations which played the song. One did not want to be called a queer when I was in high school. Now the word has a different connotation. I don't know how much playtime the song had in other countries. It definitely got a lot of play in the clubs here in LA (I had a fake ID to get into Studio One and the like, and Odyssey let in 18+). 

[wsc]

A friend of mine, who is enthralled with all things Mark Twain, told me of a conference Twain once had in his home in Hartford to discuss literary language, including -and in Twain's perspective, even fixating on- the n-word. Some at the conference, which included several black men, winced when Twain said the word and stated they were offended by it. But, Twain noted, generally only when used by white people in reference to black people; black people often apply the word to one another in a social and even friendly or joking sort of way.

My friend is prone to exaggeration and occasional alcohol-fueled flights of fancy, so I never know how much of his stories to take as "gospel," enjoyable as they may be to hear. He has also told me that, like Twain, he tries to never let facts get in the way of a good story. Some measure of cheerful skepticism is, therefore, clearly warranted. 

But, like a bible story or an Aesop's fable, allegorical tales not rooted in historical facts can still show us a useful truth. And the truth here is that words like n-gg-r, f-g, queer, cocksucker, et. al., only have the power to offend because we give them that power. The offensive power of the n-word to a black man is rooted in his history and reminds of injustice and oppression. But its accepted use in interaction with equals demonstrates its power can be taken from it and made to no longer sting. Likewise, anti-gay slurs once used to insult and intimidate, can be neutered in their poisonous sting if we refuse to allow them to maintain that power over us. 

At my current stage of life, I don't care what someone calls me because I define myself, and I refuse to be shaped or limited by how others view me. It wasn't easy to get here, but the view from here is glorious and well worth the climb. The occasions of confronting such invective are much more rare these days, but a typical retort has been, "Your opinion might mean more to me if your opinion meant anything to me." So there!

Edited October 16, 2023 by wsc
spelling correction

[+ José Soplanucas]

2 hours ago, wsc said:

At my current stage of life, I don't care what someone calls me because I define myself, and I refuse to be shaped or limited by how others view me. It wasn't easy to get here, but the view from here is glorious and well worth the climb.

☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️

[DMICS]

My response: I am me, I love all and into all.

 

Just a matter of who tickles my fancy. 

[pubic_assistance]

15 hours ago, Unicorn said:

by saying that word in a normative way, we've taken a way the sting of the word

No.

You haven't.

"Queer" means strange.

Calling yourself strange or having someone else call you strange still isolates you from the majority. There is nothing "strange" about homosexuality and bisexuality. By this point in life we know it's all fairly common when society stops referring to it as strange.

The "N word" differs in that it doesn't mean black it mean "lesser than". Tossing that around as banter between friends of the same color evokes a challenge to the antiquated idea of being lesser because of your skin color ..but two gay men calling each other "qu**r" still evokes their inability to mix with "normal" people.

Which is why you don't hear gay men saying "Oh you qu**r ! to one another.

If it weren't still a pejorative, I wouldn't need to modify the spelling to post it here when I'm using it as a slur. So no. It's still an awful and powerful negative that hasn't been neutered. You can't just piggy-back how black Americans have challenged one of their historical slurs and end up with the same effect.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by pubic_assistance
spelling

[Marc in Calif]

8 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

The "N word" differs in that it doesn't mean black it mean "lesser than".

Can you cite a dictionary (or English usage manual) that includes this particular meaning as the current primary definition of the N word?

And can you explain the changes in meaning of words such as silly and hussy over time? They once meant something very different than they do today.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

 

...Which is why you don't hear gay men saying "Oh you qu**r ! to one another.

If it weren't still a pejorative, I wouldn't need to modify the spelling to post it here when I'm using it as a slur. So no. It's still an awful and powerful negative that hasn't been neutered. You can't just piggy-back how black Americans have challenged one of their historical slurs and end up with the same effect.

No, the reason gay men don't say "Oh, you queer!" to each other is that the word has lost its pejorative sense. The fact that you, personally, feel the need to modify its spelling doesn't change the underlying reality of today. Obviously your personal feelings aren't evidence of anything. If I, or most gay men, were to hear "Oh, you queer!", we'd just laugh at how behind the times the speaker was, then say "Yes, I know!". 

I never piggy-backed the word queer to how black Americans challenged each other. You're either thinking of another poster or intentionally mis-representing what I said. Nor am I afraid of being considered a minority in any variety of ways. Every person is unique, and a member of a minority in any number of characteristics. I'm not ashamed of my uniqueness. One would hope people can celebrate, rather than be ashamed, of the various ways they are in the minority. Examples include LGBT History Month, Black History Month, Latino History Month, and so on. Hell, we're in the middle of Italian-American Heritage Month, and just finished Latino History Month and German-American Heritage Month...

https://www.indstate.edu/sites/default/files/media/Documents/PDF/msp-National Heritage Months.pdf

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Unicorn

[pubic_assistance]

3 hours ago, Marc in Calif said:

Can you cite a dictionary (or English usage manual) that includes this particular meaning as the current primary definition of the N word?

No. Because we'd be getting off topic.

[pubic_assistance]

2 hours ago, Unicorn said:

I never piggy-backed the word queer to how black Americans challenged each other.

"You can't just piggy-back"...

I meant "you" as in someone.

British formal: One can't just piggy back...

American casual: You can't just piggy back.

[+ José Soplanucas]

I subscribe to @wsc's unattachment to labels, but I like "queer" because of her questioning, non-labeling meaning. The word has evolved far from where some place it as "strange" towards a general category to engulf all non-conforming to mainstream sexualities. 

I understand when so many gay men reject the word. Many homosexual men have joined the mainstream and have no interest in questioning their sexuality. I am not in that club. Not only do I believe that my sexual preferences and the way I understand sexuality can evolve, but I have experienced that fluidity and am still experiencing it.  

Nowadays, I think "queer" has a much more progressive, open, and inclusive meaning than gay, lesbian, or any other traditional sexual identity. 

[Marc in Calif]

39 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

No. Because we'd be getting off topic.

Absolutely not!

This topic is about the meaning of words and terms. And you defined one of them -- incorrectly and without citing any sources.

Mis-definitions as well as definitions are clearly on topic in this thread.

[pubic_assistance]

34 minutes ago, Marc in Calif said:

This topic is about the meaning of words and terms. And you defined one of them -- incorrectly and without citing any sources.

I don't need to cite sources to be sure of my acurracy .This is a conversation, not a debate. I am discussing from memory, not a research paper with a bibliography. 

The N word is a tangent, and I therfore risk pissing off the monitors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+ nycman]

Any of you H-O-M-O-S want P-I-Z-Z-A?

[pubic_assistance]

3 hours ago, José Soplanucas said:

Nowadays, I think "queer" has a much more progressive, open, and inclusive meaning than gay, lesbian, or any other traditional sexual identity. 

That's literally like saying calling someone  "freak" is liberating.

Makes ZERO sense.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

That's literally like saying calling someone  "freak" is liberating.

Makes ZERO sense.

I showed my fiance this post and he laughed out loud. I feel a song coming on.

 

[+ José Soplanucas]

20 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

That's literally like saying calling someone  "freak" is liberating.

Makes ZERO sense.

Sometimes, we think it does not make sense when we do not understand something.

[+ José Soplanucas]

1 minute ago, Unicorn said:

I showed my fiance this post and he laughed out loud. I feel a song coming on.

 

Best come back ever.

[Marc in Calif]

1 minute ago, José Soplanucas said:

Sometimes, we think it does not make sense when we do not understand something.

And also when we refuse to understand and acknowledge. 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

4 hours ago, José Soplanucas said:

Sometimes, we think it does not make sense when we do not understand something.

Sounds queer to me.

[pubic_assistance]

11 hours ago, José Soplanucas said:

Sometimes, we think it does not make sense when we do not understand something.

Fair enough.

This one has me lost in the logic.

From my perspective everyone who thinks they've "taken ownership" is simply in deep denial and desperately trying to find a place to put these slurs so they hurt less by pretending they don't hurt.

Nothing has changed but how much you're lying to yourself.

 

[+ José Soplanucas]

10 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

Fair enough.

This one has me lost in the logic.

From my perspective everyone who thinks they've "taken ownership" is simply in deep denial and desperately trying to find a place to put these slurs so they hurt less by pretending they don't hurt.

Nothing has changed but how much you're lying to yourself.

 

Oh.

So... because these "slurs" hurt you, you think they are hurtful to everyone else. I wonder what the thousands of academics working in Queer Studies Departments in universities worldwide would think about your fragility.

Anyways, to quote a previous poster...

Freak out!

 

[+ WilliamM]

What ever Charlie Carver  calls himself these days.

I am a twin too

[pubic_assistance]

41 minutes ago, WilliamM said:

What ever Charlie Carver  calls himself these days.

Charlie Carver came out after a gay man slapped him for being too ‘effeminate’

WWW.METROWEEKLY.COM

---

The Boys in the Band star Charlie Carve says a gay man told him to keep his mannerisms "under control" at...

 

[+ WilliamM]

He played a gay Horror Stories as weell

That was the series on AIDS

Edited October 19, 2023 by WilliamM