Can organizations woke themselves to death?

[+ José Soplanucas]

Poor White victims.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

I don't think casting an actor from a different cultural/ethnic background than the person they are portraying is at all "woke".

As long as they can handle the role, they ARE acting after all.  Gender roles and racial roles have been swapped for centuries...

I actually don't mind casting actors with different ethnicities from the character--especially if the actor (or singer in the opera) has a unique talent. I actually knew that many of the actors in the Oklahoma! production were going to be cast by actors with different ethnicities, and that didn't bother me. Obviously, blackface is offensive, and if the race is critical to the role, an effort should be made to cast someone appropriate. There's usually someone of adequate talent of the correct race, when necessary. My problem with the production was the twisting of the plot and the authors' intent. In the US, we give the courage of the founding fathers who signed the Declaration of Independence great reverence, so the casting of 1776 itself was offensive. 

As some have pointed out, I obviously have no proof that ticket sales and donations dried up due to audience preferences. I think it's plainly obvious, however, that the pandemic was NOT the critical factor, as claimed by the theater group's management. What distinguished the CTG from other theater groups was their choice of works to perform and their casting choices. I can't prove QED that this is what caused the problem, but I have yet to hear of a plausible alternative explanation. 

[pubic_assistance]

13 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Obviously, blackface is offensive,

Is it "obvious" ? Or have we simply been conditioned to find it offensive ?

Historically the Vaudeville "Coon shows" were offensive because they were ridiculing black people.  So, yes. THAT was offensive.

The rest....is just theatrics.

Blacks must play black ( even if the actor isn't 100% "black" ) and gays must play gays. What's next ? Women must play women ? Oh wait ! 🤔 We are supposed to celebrate men pretending to be women but we can't celebrate whites being black but fabulous to be a black playing white or a gay playing straight but not a straight playing gay.......OMG it's all so confusing ( and hypocritical ). How about we just accept that theatre is all illusion and drop the woke attitude.

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by pubic_assistance
Grammar

[+ nycman]

18 hours ago, BenjaminNicholas said:

GTFO.  It's six-time TONY award winner Audra McDonald.

Fun fact. I occasionally sang with her in a college dorm bar on the Upper West Side when we were both in our early 20’s. Long before her First Tony and long before even her first appearance on Broadway. Ahhhh, the innocence of youth!

The relevance to this thread? She LOVED my performance of the Little Mermaid’s "Part of Your World". I sang the shit out of that song. Yes, a gay white male Little Mermaid…and I killed it!

Edited June 21, 2023 by nycman

[rvwnsd]

I vote for stopping use of and the worry about "woke" and "wokeness." If you don't like a performance (for whatever reason) don't watch or buy tickets for it. It's really that simple.

Know what else is simple?

Knowing when to stop replying to messages and 

STOP ATTACKING AND FIGHTING WITH EACH OTHER.

Consider this to be a moderator's warning.

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, rvwnsd said:

...If you don't like a performance (for whatever reason) don't watch or buy tickets for it. It's really that simple.

...

100% correct. The people of Los Angeles have spoken.

[+ robear]

On 6/18/2023 at 9:52 PM, Kippy said:

Call me silly...a black abbess in 1937 Austria?  It's a hell of a lot more than just a "good actress" performing a role.  Just a smidge of historical reality is needed to pull it off. 

A black abbess ... singing R&H showtunes with a full orchestra just offscreen.  Gee, the complexion of the performer just DESTROYS the historical accuracy of the piece!

[+ José Soplanucas]

Considering the "Color Blindness" of some White posters defending blackface, I would suggest asking for their opinion of our Black members.

Do we have anyone left?

[+ robear]

11 hours ago, BSR said:

My problem with race-switch casting is it's always just in one direction. 

Insofar as that's true, it's for the obvious reason that it isn't a level playing field.  At all.  For ever and always, Caucasian performers have been hired to portray non-European characters.  If there's the teensiest tilt in the other direction, that's just how it goes.

To me, color-blind casting, as well as other kinds of "reimagining," can work or not, depending on the material, direction, style of production, specific performer, target audience, etc.  The concept isn't black-or-white, heh-heh.  But that's how it goes in theatre, opera, film, TV, etc.  Not everything pays off. 

[+ SundayZip]

I don't think casting should [always] be 100% color blind. In some instances, the color of the actor's skin makes a difference to me. A white actor planning Malcom X would be jarring; the color of his skin is essential to Malcom X's role in US history. On the flip side, I would not like to see a black actor playing George Wallace as governor of Alabama. But the color of an actor's skin playing the Abbess in the Sound of Music or Curly in Oklahoma is not so relevant to the story or to their performance.  

Edited June 21, 2023 by SundayZip

[+ robear]

12 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

Is it "obvious" ? Or have we simply been conditioned to find it offensive ?

As a white person, I understand that my diktat of what is offensive about blackface is totally irrelevant.

[pubic_assistance]

40 minutes ago, robear said:

As a white person, I understand that my diktat of what is offensive about blackface is totally irrelevant.

I think it's certainly different but nobody's opinion is "irrelevant". 

You don't need to BE somebody to empathize with their feelings. 

[pubic_assistance]

1 hour ago, SundayZip said:

I don't think casting should [always] be 100% color blind. In some instances, the color of the actor's skin makes a difference to me. A white actor planning Malcom X would be jarring; the color of his skin is essential to Malcom X's role in US history. On the flip side, I would not like to see a black actor playing George Wallace as governor of Alabama. But the color of an actor's skin playing the Abbess in the Sound of Music or Curly in Oklahoma is not so relevant to the story or to their performance.  

Although I don't disagree with the individual examples you made. I am curious to know if you are aware of the hypocrisy in your overall philosophy?

Which is: ok for people of color to play white but not ok for white people to play people of color. 

Pick a side.

Either color matters or it doesn't. 

[+ SundayZip]

30 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Although I don't disagree with the individual examples you made. I am curious to know if you are aware of the hypocrisy in your overall philosophy?

Which is: ok for people of color to play white but not ok for white people to play people of color. 

Pick a side.

Either color matters or it doesn't. 

"<...> are you aware of the hypocrisy in your overall philosophy?
Which is: ok for people of color to play white but not ok for white people to play people of color."

Huh? What made you think this is my philosophy? 

[pubic_assistance]

2 minutes ago, SundayZip said:

"<...> are you aware of the hypocrisy in your overall philosophy?
Which is: ok for people of color to play white but not ok for white people to play people of color."

Huh? What made you think this is my philosophy? 

Because you applied this logic to your statement that it's ok for p.o.c. to play white but not white to play p.o.c. 

Maybe I misunderstood the intention of your comment.. but that's how it reads. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by pubic_assistance

[+ SundayZip]

2 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Because you applied this logic to your statement that it's ok for p.o.c. to play white but not white to play p.o.c. 

 

I believe you're misinterpreting my statement in a way that supports your presupposition that I have a hypocritical point of view.  Let me paraphrase what I said in I way that you might understand: 

"A white actor planning Malcom X would be jarring; the color of his skin is essential to Malcom X's role in US history."  In this instance, I would not like to see a white actor playing a black character:

"On the flip side, I would not like to see a black actor playing George Wallace as governor of Alabama."  In this instance, I would not like to see a black actor playing a white character:

 

[+ José Soplanucas]

3 hours ago, robear said:

To me, color-blind casting, as well as other kinds of "reimagining," can work or not, depending on the material, direction, style of production, specific performer, target audience, etc.  The concept isn't black-or-white, heh-heh.  But that's how it goes in theatre, opera, film, TV, etc.  Not everything pays off. 

I think this may be the best response to the issue so far. Everything depends on many contextual variables. The only thing missing is that we also have to consider the socio-political-cultural context, which I think you are implying.

[pubic_assistance]

1 hour ago, SundayZip said:

I believe you're misinterpreting my statement in a way that supports your presupposition that I have a hypocritical point of view.  Let me paraphrase what I said in I way that you might understand: 

"A white actor planning Malcom X would be jarring; the color of his skin is essential to Malcom X's role in US history."  In this instance, I would not like to see a white actor playing a black character:

"On the flip side, I would not like to see a black actor playing George Wallace as governor of Alabama."  In this instance, I would not like to see a black actor playing a white character:

 

Yup.

I "got" that.

But then you paralleled with the character of a sweet Austrian girl not mattering about race, so it seems to run a double standard.

To me, and that's just MY viewpoint. ( I'm not saying I am universally "RIGHT" ) If you're going to be color blind, then it works both ways.

Personally, I feel that if you can nail a part then the actors ethnicity (and sexuality or gender) shouldn't matter.

But I do understand your point about MalcomX being so tied to race that it would seem jarring.

Quentin Crisp as Queen Elizabeth was a magnificent casting.

 

[Rudynate]

On 6/19/2023 at 2:37 PM, SouthOfTheBorder said:

this is more a commentary on imperfect humans & exposing their flaws and humanity, exonerating someone in their community who they think is guilty.  it’s not so far fetched - happens all the time, actually 

the bigger point is that great theater not only entertains, but makes you think & question your own thoughts/interpretations. 
You’re doing exactly that.  And there is frequently no single true interpretation, many questions are not neatly answered and there are intentional loose ends. 
a really good thought provoking show takes days to settle - and that’s great theatre 

We've been binge-watching "The Great . . .," a paradoy of Catherine II and her reign.  A few of the characters are played by black actors.  It was disconcerting at first to see black actors playing 18th century Russian courtiers, but it didn't take much to get used to it. 

[SouthOfTheBorder]

9 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

It was disconcerting at first to see black actors playing 18th century Russian courtiers, but it didn't take much to get used to it. 

Elle Fanning stars in the lead - she’s American and it’s in English.  

skin color of some actors is just another departure from 18th century Russia 

[Rudynate]

2 minutes ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

Elle Fanning stars in the lead - she’s American and it’s in English.  

skin color of some actors is just another departure from 18th century Russia 

Right.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, robear said:

Insofar as that's true, it's for the obvious reason that it isn't a level playing field.  At all.  For ever and always, Caucasian performers have been hired to portray non-European characters.  If there's the teensiest tilt in the other direction, that's just how it goes.

To me, color-blind casting, as well as other kinds of "reimagining," can work or not, depending on the material, direction, style of production, specific performer, target audience, etc.  The concept isn't black-or-white, heh-heh.  But that's how it goes in theatre, opera, film, TV, etc.  Not everything pays off. 

One reimagining that apparently worked is the SF Bay Area's Lamplighter Theater, which rewrote The Mikado, G&S's most popular work, to be set in Renaissance Europe, since they were concerned that a majority of the actors were not Asian (though some were, and have played multiple roles in their productions for years). They renamed it Il Ducato, and changed some lyrics such as "If you want to know who we are--we are gentlemen from Milan..." instead of "Gentlemen from Japan." Of course, the original operetta was poking fun at British society, not Japan, but whatever. Theater-goers were subsequently polled as to how they felt about the change. Apparently the change was well-perceived by the audience, because they're still doing it. 

IL DUCATO / The New Mikado - Lamplighters Music Theatre

LAMPLIGHTERS.ORG

 

 

[Rudynate]

7 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

Because you applied this logic to your statement that it's ok for p.o.c. to play white but not white to play p.o.c. 

Maybe I misunderstood the intention of your comment.. but that's how it reads. 

 I remember a movie starring Godfrey Cambridge - Watermelon Man - where he played a racist white guy who woke up one morning to find that his skin had turned black overnight. 

[Rudynate]

21 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

Is it "obvious" ? Or have we simply been conditioned to find it offensive ?

Historically the Vaudeville "Coon shows" were offensive because they were ridiculing black people.  So, yes. THAT was offensive.

The rest....is just theatrics.

Blacks must play black ( even if the actor isn't 100% "black" ) and gays must play gays. What's next ? Women must play women ? Oh wait ! 🤔 We are supposed to celebrate men pretending to be women but we can't celebrate whites being black but fabulous to be a black playing white or a gay playing straight but not a straight playing gay.......OMG it's all so confusing ( and hypocritical ). How about we just accept that theatre is all illusion and drop the woke attitude.

 

A friend of mine asked me if I thought bodybuilders using spray tan on stage wasn't blackface.   I thought it so preposterous, I had a hard time not laughing in his face.  I said "they aren't pretending to be black, just that they have a great tan."

Edited June 21, 2023 by Rudynate

[pubic_assistance]

1 minute ago, Rudynate said:

A friend of mine asked me if I didn't think bodybuilders using spray tan on stage wasn't blackface.   I thought it so preposterous, I had a hard time not laughing in his face.  I said "they aren't pretending to be black, just that they have a great tan."

Considering the amount of time and money white people spend on tanning you'd think being born with dark skin would be considered more of a blessing.