What caused the decay of San Francisco?

[nate_sf]

13 hours ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

The 9th Circuit ruled in 2018 that cities cannot ban camping in public spaces.

https://www.nlc.org/article/2018/09/19/what-the-ninth-circuits-camping-ruling-means-for-housing-first-strategies-in-cities/

This 2018 ruling applies to cities in the following states: Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington.

You may have noticed a large uptick in urban camping that started year that has yet to subside.  I noticed it in Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Las Vegas almost overnight as transient homeless set up camp on sidewalks that year.   For my masters thesis in 2019, I interviewed homeless people in tent camps in Las Vegas.  A majority of whom I talked to said they previously used about half of their disability checks for affordable weekly rentals.  But now that the police can't arrest them for camping on the streets, they would rather sleep outdoors and save their disability checks for more beer and cigarettes.

While my masters thesis was not on San Francisco, I suspect many urban campers have no desire to move indoors for a nominal cost.

Amusingly, one of the homeless men I interviewed in Las Vegas said he rotated to California every few years because California would give him bonus payments as a newly homeless person in that state, and then move back to Nevada when he no longer qualified for the California bonus.

Thanks for providing that context. I wasn’t aware of all that… it definitely explains a lot! 

[BSR]

18 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

The thing I keep returning to though is that other rich developed counties do not have these same issues - homelessness & gun violence.

I doubt that other rich developed countries have completely solved their homelessness problem.  In Japan, the government, society, and the homeless themselves do a heckuva job of keeping homelessness out of sight and thus out of mind.  Spain has an "Okupa" law:  if someone occupies a home for more than 48 hours, they have a legal right to stay there while the owner is forced to continue paying the mortgage, property tax, utilities, etc.  Because the eviction process can take months, the would-be homeless keep a roof over their head by being serial okupas. On the flip side, in the far less wealthy Philippines, the culture "solves" homelessness: someone will always take you in -- usually a family member, maybe a friend, sometimes even a well-to-do person you barely know.   In other words, homelessness, like so many issues, is complicated.

Gun violence is equally complicated, but any further discussion of the issue will delve too much into politics.

San Francisco seems to take a simplistic approach to a complicated issue:  more money and more government programs will solve homelessness.  If only it were that easy.

Edited June 5, 2023 by BSR
Typo

[SouthOfTheBorder]

4 hours ago, BSR said:

doubt that other rich developed countries have completely solved their homelessness problem

relatively speaking - they have solved the homeless problem.  

In Madrid there are homeless people.  But you can walk the city for an entire day and it would be difficult to count more than two dozen.  Same in Tokyo.  It’s just not a visible or an overwhelming issue in either of those places.  And the homeless are not visible in either Madrid or Tokyo subway systems at all vs New York or any other major American city where they are a permanent fixture.  It’s just the way it is in those places. 

 Doubtful any country/state/city can completely eradicate homelessness- but Spain and Japan have dealt with the problem in such a way that it does not impact quality of life for others nor does it create a visible population or unsafe environment.

America is failing in more issues than homelessness - another drop in life expectancy in US for 2022.  The only wealthy country to experience this type of decline - you can google it & find consistent information from a variety of sources.  

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[pubic_assistance]

4 hours ago, BSR said:

San Francisco seems to take a simplistic approach to a complicated issue:  more money and more government programs will solve homelessness.  If only it were that easy.

From the very start the issue is being misrepresented. "Homelessness" denotes and portrays the issue as a lack of housing for people. There is no lack of housing for poor people. There is plenty of housing sitting empty in many former industrial cities across, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia and New York State. What is lacking in housing is a FREE place to crash in RICH districts. A favorite combination for drug dealers who live off the welfare check and make a substantial income from sales of party favors.  Conversely, the rest of the so called "homeless" problem are mentally ill and the people who TAKE the drugs supplied by the other formerly "Homeless" drug dealers.  You can provide housing for a mentally ill person and he will be back on the street within the year. They don't need housing, they need care. Serious care. All of that costs MONEY that nobody wants to spend.

Most of the game played with your tax dollar is a matter of begging for $ 50M for this worthy cause. Then spending $ 10M, patting yourself on the back, for solving the problem. Under budgeting the maintenance and administrating costs and stealing the $ 40M balance and buying you and your cronies better houses for yourselves.

[marylander1940]

5 hours ago, BSR said:

I doubt that other rich developed countries have completely solved their homelessness problem.  In Japan, the government, society, and the homeless themselves do a heckuva job of keeping homelessness out of sight and thus out of mind.  Spain has an "Okupa" law:  if someone occupies a home for more than 48 hours, they have a legal right to stay there while the owner is forced to continue paying the mortgage, property tax, utilities, etc.  Because the eviction process can take months, the would-be homeless keep a roof over their head by being serial okupas. On the flip side, in the far less wealthy Philippines, the culture "solves" homelessness: someone will always take you in -- usually a family member, maybe a friend, sometimes even a well-to-do person you barely know.   In other words, homelessness, like so many issues, is complicated.

Gun violence is equally complicated, but any further discussion of the issue will delve too much into politics.

San Francisco seems to take a simplistic approach to a complicated issue:  more money and more government programs will solve homelessness.  If only it were that easy.

Don't you forget about our obesity epidemic which for the first time in the history of mankind is related to poverty, our issues with drug addiction, culture of date rape, credit card debt, alcoholism in college, folks who hoard stuff at home out of loneliness, in-cell lifestyle, etc.

Hitler referred to us as a nation of pleasure seekers unable to rage war, he was proven wrong!

Do we lack the individual responsibility to do the right thing nowadays? As a gay man I'm proud we stood to the challenge and saved the world from Monkeypox when most of us abstained from hiring or free sex in the crucial months of June, July and August 2022. Now we have a pill to prevent HIV, for decades most of gay men behaved responsibly while others sadly took chances to get a bit more of pleasure. 

As you point even a poor crowded country like the Philippines can teach as an example of how to deal with the issue of those who get in trouble, I'm sure there's some tough love involved in how the family helps those who need help. 

San Francisco certainly is an extreme case, a case of "two cities" and must be addressed.

"If you think it can't be done (solved) step aside", Ronal Reagan

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by marylander1940

[pubic_assistance]

1 hour ago, marylander1940 said:

As a gay man I'm proud we stood to the challenge and saved the world from Monkeypox

[BSR]

1 hour ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

relatively speaking - they have solved the homeless problem.  

In Madrid there are homeless people.  But you can walk the city for an entire day and it would be difficult to count more than two dozen.  Same in Tokyo.  It’s just not a visible or an overwhelming issue in either of those places.  And the homeless are not visible in either Madrid or Tokyo subway systems at all vs New York or any other major American city where they are a permanent fixture.  It’s just the way it is in those places. 

 Doubtful any country/state/city can completely eradicate homelessness- but Spain and Japan have dealt with the problem in such a way that it does not impact quality of life for others nor does it create a visible population or unsafe environment.

America is failing in more issues than homelessness - another drop in life expectancy in US for 2022.  The only wealthy country to experience this type of decline - you can google it & find consistent information from a variety of sources.  

 

 

According to this research paper published in February of this year, there are an estimated 4,146 homeless people in Madrid (comunidad autónoma, not city proper), far more than the "two dozen" one might see walking the streets.  While that rate is much lower than San Francisco or NYC, when you take into consideration the Okupa law, Madrid has clearly fallen far short of solving homelessness.  Stripping citizens of their property rights does reduce the homeless population significantly yet utterly fails to address the issue of homelessness.

No, you won't see homeless in Tokyo because of the deep stigma attached to homelessness and begging.  But people crashing in cybercafes & capsule hotels fails as badly as Spain's Okupa law in addressing homelessness.  Here's a video that exposes the dark secret behind Japan's "0% homelessness" ...

 

[SouthOfTheBorder]

25 minutes ago, BSR said:

According to this research paper published in February of this year

you need to travel a bit more & see it for yourself  
There is no visible homeless problem in either city, nor are there safety issues created by rampant homeless

Anyone comparing American homeless (like NY, LA, SF) problem to Spain or Japan hasn't been in either country recently & has no idea what they're talking about.  More keyboard warrior information from the basement 

the homeless problem in the US is a curiosity to my European friends - they don't actually believe it's real & can't understand why it can't be solved, or mitigated to a non-issue.  That's the tough thing to explain.

Edited June 5, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[pubic_assistance]

NYC buried it's homeless problem for decades so it APPEARED like it had improved through the early 2000s but like most cities it was a matter of sweeping the problem under the carpet. Discussing homelessness and the root causes of drug addiction and mental illness can not be guaged by casual observation walking around the streets of a city. And even putting a roof over their head (temporarily) doesn't solve the actual problem.

 

[SouthOfTheBorder]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

Discussing homelessness and the root causes of drug addiction and mental illness can not be guaged by casual observation walking around the streets of a city.

Yes it can.  This is ridiculous.  

If you see thousands of homeless on the streets, it’s a problem.  If they are visible consistently in the subways & make riders feel unsafe, it’s a problem.  If there are more homeless appearing on the streets each year, it’s a problem.  There are major homeless problems in NYC, LA, SF & many more - this is not in dispute.  It’s clearly visible & has significantly impacted the quality of life in those cities. 

if you visit a major world capital, like Madrid Tokyo and you do not see homeless in any numbers & any consistency after several days & several trips, there is no problem in the American context.  How could it be possible to visit NY or SF and seeing hundreds of homeless immediately yet in Madrid & Tokyo almost none after several days ? The truth is simple and obvious.

This is a unique American failure any way you look at it.  Similar to our healthcare debacle and declining life expectancy.  Minimizing, denial & obfuscation are the tools to somehow make peace with this failure I guess.

Beware of anyone who tells you not to believe what you have seen in-person.  Very Orwellian 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

24 minutes ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

if you visit a major world capital, like Madrid Tokyo and you do not see homeless in any numbers & any consistency after several days & several trips, there is no problem in the American context.  How could it be possible to visit NY or SF and seeing hundreds of homeless immediately yet in Madrid & Tokyo almost none after several days ? The truth is simple and obvious.

This is a unique American failure any way you look at it.

A society's greatest strength is also its greatest weakness.  The freedom to live out of doors and camp in any public space is a personal liberty some enjoy at the cost of discomfort by the majority around them.  Some cities are better able at reducing personal liberties for minority groups to keep their cities pleasant and secure for the majority.

"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." Benjamin Franklin

San Francisco has historically been a very welcoming city to diverse groups of social minorities.  That may have been a factor to its current state of problems.  I do not have an opinion of which one is better or worse (that would be political discussion).  I do know that not all homeless are mentally ill.  Some just prefer not having to work to pay rent.

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Vegas_Millennial

[+ KensingtonHomo]

Homelessness exists because of unrestrained capitalism. At various points, we've had better social programs that minimize the number of people who are homeless, but neoliberal economics have more or less destroyed them. So we have rampant homelessness - not just people battling mental illness and substance abuse but also families and children - because our government has chosen to spend 50% of our tax money enriching weapons contractors and letting Elon Musk hoard wealth. 

Everything else is just talking around the issue. 

[SouthOfTheBorder]

4 minutes ago, KensingtonHomo said:

Homelessness exists because of unrestrained capitalism

correct - and homelessness is just the most visible immediate American failure, which is an early marker of much bigger problems to come.

when a society is based on incentives for individuals and corporations to maximize their own wealth at any cost - major problems will follow.

Just wait for a major failure of the electrical grid because some energy company didn’t want to spend their money.  Or, worse - a nuclear facility.  
There’s a tipping point where unbridled capitalism begins to slowly consume itself & the inevitable decline to follow. That’s where the American system is now.  We will sell anything to any buyer for a price.  And we will cut any corner to save money for shareholder return.  All at the expense of common sense & greater society.
Our roads, airports, rail systems are already 3rd world in most places (have you been on the NY subway lately, or Amtrak ?) - because nobody want to pay for the upkeep and improvements.

For the contrarians - do not travel to other rich developed countries as your bubble will burst.  Everything works.

[+ KensingtonHomo]

42 minutes ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

Our roads, airports, rail systems are already 3rd world in most places (have you been on the NY subway lately, or Amtrak ?) - because nobody want to pay for the upkeep and improvements.

For the contrarians - do not travel to other rich developed countries as your bubble will burst.  Everything works.

Absolutely. If Americans had any idea how we're being fucked over, there'd be riots. 

[mike carey]

1 hour ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

For the contrarians - do not travel to other rich developed countries as your bubble will burst.  Everything works.

Yeah it does. Are you suggesting it doesn't in some rich developed countries? Or one?

Government and civil society combine to address, if not always immediately to solve things as they arise. Surely that is just the way things are?

[SouthOfTheBorder]

1 hour ago, mike carey said:

Are you suggesting it doesn't in some rich developed countries

Yes - just take high speed rail infrastructure as an example, or lack thereof.  

Spain, Japan & France all have extensive high-speed rail systems.  Modern, clean, fast & reliable.  The US has none.  The one high- speed rail project in California will likely never be completed. 
The point is the other rich developed countries have solved complex problems, or greatly reduced their affects as to be non-issues.  Homelessness, gun-violence & crumbling infrastructure are all US unique problems among peer rich developed countries.

For those who travel frequently & extensively- the US is starting to look more third world vs rich developed world.  It’s going backwards.

The OP posted about San Francisco specifically.  And the decline in SF is shocking & somewhat predictable - it’s extreme wealth inequality combined with a perfect storm of pandemic, work-from-home, inflation & a decades long intractable homeless problem.

There is a segment of our population rooting for California to fail based on political beliefs - unfortunately, California tends to lead the nation in all things.  So whatever happens there usually translates to the rest of the country in a few years.  Be careful what you wish for. 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[socurious]

5 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

you need to travel a bit more & see it for yourself  
There is no visible homeless problem in either city, nor are there safety issues created by rampant homeless

Anyone comparing American homeless (like NY, LA, SF) problem to Spain or Japan hasn't been in either country recently & has no idea what they're talking about.  More keyboard warrior information from the basement 

the homeless problem in the US is a curiosity to my European friends - they don't actually believe it's real & can't understand why it can't be solved, or mitigated to a non-issue.  That's the tough thing to explain.

Even in Montreal I saw less homeless. I think Boston has a few less than NYC though. 

[BSR]

6 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

you need to travel a bit more & see it for yourself  
There is no visible homeless problem in either city, nor are there safety issues created by rampant homeless

Anyone comparing American homeless (like NY, LA, SF) problem to Spain or Japan hasn't been in either country recently & has no idea what they're talking about.  More keyboard warrior information from the basement 

the homeless problem in the US is a curiosity to my European friends - they don't actually believe it's real & can't understand why it can't be solved, or mitigated to a non-issue.  That's the tough thing to explain.

We are talking about 2 different things.  I am referring to the actual number of homeless whereas you are referring to homeless visibility and presence.

Never been to Tokyo but have been to Madrid more times than I can count.  Granted, you will be hard pressed to see more than a few scattered homeless.  If that's your definition of "solving homelessness," uh, OK.

But if "solving homelessness" means reducing the number of homeless, then Spain has massively failed.  The government simply forces property owners against their will to house squatters.  ~40 additional houses/apartments per day are taken over by squatters, and it takes months if not years to evict them.  Plus if the owner is delinquent in paying the mortgage, property tax, HOA, utilities, etc. while the squatters are living for free in the owner's property, the owner is fined.

You call that a "solution"?  I call it an outrage.

Edited June 5, 2023 by BSR
Typo

[+ José Soplanucas]

23 minutes ago, BSR said:

You call that a "solution"?  I call it an outrage.

Oh. So because you do not like this solution, you refused to accept that the homeless problem was resolved.

It looks like you have a problem, but these formerly homeless people do not have it anymore. 

[BSR]

1 hour ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

Yes - just take high speed rail infrastructure as an example, or lack thereof.  

Spain, Japan & France all have extensive high-speed rail systems.  Modern, clean, fast & reliable.  The US has none.  The one high- speed rail project in California will likely never be completed. 
The point is the other rich developed countries have solved complex problems, or greatly reduced their affects as to be non-issues.  Homelessness, gun-violence & crumbling infrastructure are all US unique problems among peer rich developed countries.

For those who travel frequently & extensively- the US is starting to look more third world vs rich developed world.  It’s going backwards.

El AVE (Alta Velocidad Española, the Spanish high-speed train system) is a financial clusterf*ck.  Annual revenue falls waaaaaaaaaay short of the operating costs.  The typical annual loss is €100 million, jumped to €480 million in the red during the worst of Covid.  Forget recovering even 1 céntimo of the €billions in startup costs.

That's your definition of "success"?  That's my definition of disaster.

 

[pubic_assistance]

1 minute ago, José Soplanucas said:

So because you do not like this solution, you refused to accept that the homeless problem was resolved.

Handing the problem to someone and making it THEIR problem doesn't "solve the problem". Squatting only temporarily gets people off the streets.

[+ José Soplanucas]

Just now, pubic_assistance said:

Handing the problem to someone and making it THEIR problem doesn't "solve the problem". Squatting only temporarily gets people off the streets.

Would I make you happy if we call it a "temporary solution?"

[+ José Soplanucas]

1 minute ago, BSR said:

El AVE (Alta Velocidad Española, the Spanish high-speed train system) is a financial clusterf*ck.  Annual revenue falls waaaaaaaaaay short of the operating costs.  The typical annual loss is €100 million, jumped to €480 million in the red during the worst of Covid.  Forget recovering even 1 céntimo of the €billions in startup costs.

That's your definition of "success"?  That's my definition of disaster.

 

The definition of success for a public service includes much more than whether or not there is a surplus or a deficit.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

35 minutes ago, BSR said:

But if "solving homelessness" means reducing the number of homeless, then Spain has massively failed.  The government simply forces property owners against their will to house squatters.  ~40 additional houses/apartments per day are taken over by squatters, and it takes months if not years to evict them.  Plus if the owner is delinquent in paying the mortgage, property tax, HOA, utilities, etc. while the squatters are living for free in the owner's property, the owner is fined.

You call that a "solution"?  I call it an outrage.

You, like most others, call it an outrage because you worked hard to provide for yourself and your community.  Unfortunately there's a growing vocal mindset who believe they and others are pre-destined to fail, that life is rigged against them, and they're owed three square meals a day and shelter without contributing back what they can to society.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Vegas_Millennial

[BSR]

3 minutes ago, José Soplanucas said:

Oh. So because you do not like this solution, you refused to accept that the homeless problem was resolved.

It looks like you have a problem, but these formerly homeless people do not have it anymore. 

Oh, so I can lock you out of your condo and live there for free while you are forced to keep paying the mortgage, HOA, homeowners, property tax, and utilities?  And 3 years from now, after you've spent tens of $thousands in legal fees and I've caused tens of $thousands in damage, I don't owe you one thin dime?

Great!  When can I move in?  Wait, forget that, 'cuz you have no say in the matter.  I'll take over your place whenever I damn well please.

¡Gracias, tío, te debo una gorda!