Prices and Negotiations (ie. “Haggling”)

[SirBillybob]

11 minutes ago, Jamie21 said:

Did you charge by the word? 

Is obnoxious the new sensual?

If you see an outcome as having beaten you down, and you’re snarky about either another’s debate position, or content and its length, then you’re suggesting you easily land behind enemy lines. Not a good look. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by SirBillybob

[Jamie21]

4 minutes ago, SirBillybob said:

Is obnoxious the new sensual?

Well…some clients do like me to talk dirty.

No offence meant 😉. Glad to see you can be laconic sometimes. 

[Jamie21]

10 minutes ago, SirBillybob said:

Is obnoxious the new sensual?

If you see an outcome as having beaten you down, and you’re snarky about either another’s debate position, or content and its length, then you’re suggesting you easily land behind enemy lines. Not a good look 

I’m happy to let others be the judge of that. 

[Gentopman]

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

I'm a businessman.

You can certainly haggle my fees, and I will tell you to go fuck yourself.

Haggling is always tacky.

Happens every time an old Jewish lady asks for a discount.  When I haggle, I go for a fair price.  If you don’t like it, it’s smart as the seller to make yourself sound like a good deal up front.  Discounts for 90 min or two hours are always nice and sound less greedy.  Businesses that do it are very successful.

[SirBillybob]

6 minutes ago, Jamie21 said:

I’m happy to let others be the judge of that. 

My implied judgement was probably premature and based on too narrow a set of material. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by SirBillybob

[Jaroslav]

@Jamie21,I sometimes wish I were a lawyer! But even more people would despise me than already do! And – people would probably tell me I’m doing that job wrong too. And for what it’s worth, I don’t think less of you for arguing with me. People should be able to disagree without insult.

If I did share what I do, you’d probably all laugh. Suffice it to say I totally understand what it’s like to work in the service industry, have people with really no understanding whatsoever about my job tell me over and over how to do it better, but never in a million years be willing to do it and expect me to be responsive to their beck and call 24/7. Oh, and I’m the responsible party when shit hits the fan, but I have to “share the credit” when things go well. That’s “leadership.” And compensation is something that I am not at all adequately or fairly awarded for my level of education or experience. That, I’m told, I knew when I signed up for this work.

I get the plight of service workers – sex workers included. Fair compensation for service work is a whole other topic. I just believe in being brutally honest about what we’re about here. I disdain calling something one thing when we mean another. Or pretending it’s this when we all know it’s that. That doesn’t serve anyone. And that’s all I’m really trying to say here. Negotiations and haggling happen. It’s all circumstances. But to say it’s “always” tacky is ridiculous. It’s not. There’s a time for it. People with acumen know that.

[Jaroslav]

@Jamie21, I also think you may have misunderstood my, admittedly verbose, question.

Client approaches you for a vacation, say. Asks your rate. You counter, testing the client’s limits: “what are you offering?”

Client: “How’s $10,000 for the whole trip, expenses paid, including airfair?”

You, having in your mind an unspoken rate of $7000, do you tell him that his offer is too much and take your unspoken rate of $7000 or do you make out well and take $10,000?

I know what my weekend budget for a BFE experience is. I don’t negotiate or haggle or whatever. But I still ask a provider what his rate is. If he gives me a rate under my budget, I don’t tell him he undercharged me. I take it as “a deal.” I’d expect a provider who has a threshold but a client willing to pay more wouldn’t say, “Oh, you’re overpaying me.” Even if in other professions the service provider would have to abide by a set price. That’s the strength of negotiating without saying what your budget is. As stated above, a priori v. post hoc knowledge. 

[Luv2play]

3 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

I'm a businessman.

You can certainly haggle my fees, and I will tell you to go fuck yourself.

Haggling is always tacky.

Well, yes and no. My mother was a great haggler and I learned things from her. She was Scottish so no further explanation is required if you know a Scot.

But even she realized there was a place and a time for haggling but not in every situation. That's where the tacky comes in.

With escorts I don't haggle generally but when I see an opportunity to strike a bargain that will benefit both of us I will venture a price for a multihour engagement, based on the escort's fees. Thus I will put forward a fee say for an hour and a half. Or three hours with dinner thrown in. 

I take into account if I am hosting in a nice hotel, the kind of dinner and convenience to the escort in getting there. I usually find we can agree quickly to what I propose. 

[RadioRob]

I don’t negotiate with any of my professionals… my lawyer, doctor, dentist, Uber driver, lawn care service… their rate is their rate. If I don’t like it, I say no thanks and find someone else that is a better fit. I don’t expect them to tell me the value of my work, so I don’t attempt to tell them their value. 

Now I may say no thanks and they make a counter offer… but I never expect it. In most cases I won’t accept it either as I would assume the session is going to be adjusted accordingly. 

Generally it’s either a “when are you free” or “sorry but that is outside of what I can do, thanks anyway” response. 

[Jamie21]

12 minutes ago, Jaroslav said:

@Jamie21, I also think you may have misunderstood my, admittedly verbose, question.

Client approaches you for a vacation, say. Asks your rate. You counter, testing the client’s limits: “what are you offering?”

Client: “How’s $10,000 for the whole trip, expenses paid, including airfair?”

You, having in your mind an unspoken rate of $7000, do you tell him that his offer is too much and take your unspoken rate of $7000 or do you make out well and take $10,000?

I know what my weekend budget for a BFE experience is. I don’t negotiate or haggle or whatever. But I still ask a provider what his rate is. If he gives me a rate under my budget, I don’t tell him he undercharged me. I take it as “a deal.” I’d expect a provider who has a threshold but a client willing to pay more wouldn’t say, “Oh, you’re overpaying me.” Even if in other professions the service provider would have to abide by a set price. That’s the strength of negotiating without saying what your budget is. As stated above, a priori v. post hoc knowledge. 

Since I don’t do weekends (although I have done a holiday with a client) then it’s a bit hypothetical but in your above scenario I’d go with the $10k. If the client puts a higher value on the experience than I do then I’ll go with his value. Everyone is satisfied. I don’t have an advertised price for it, so if that’s the price the market will pay then that’s the price I’ll go with.

For my advertised services the prices are stated on my adverts so if clients would have been prepared to pay more then I’m losing out. I’m pricing to maximise revenue for the supply I’m prepared to make available. If I was prepared to see 5 clients a day I would likely have to reduce the price to ensure I’d always get 5 a day. If I want 1 client a year then I’ll price extremely high (there’s always 1 with more money than sense 😂). It’s a bit trial and error but the more one understands how the market works the better one can refine the pricing model. 

[RadioRob]

4 minutes ago, Jamie21 said:

there’s always 1 with more money than sense 😂

Or one who just has a higher value of you than you!   Find those people and hold on to them!  🤣

[Jaroslav]

20 minutes ago, Jamie21 said:

 If I was prepared to see 5 clients a day I would likely have to reduce the price to ensure I’d always get 5 a day. If I want 1 client a year then I’ll price extremely high (there’s always 1 with more money than sense 😂).

What that suggests then is those escorts who have higher than average prices don’t want the work. If pricing is driven by how many clients are wanted, not needed.

[Jaroslav]

19 minutes ago, RadioRob said:

Or one who just has a higher value of you than you!  

I’m still looking for that person, in general, not as far as escorting goes.

[DWnyc]

10 hours ago, Lucky said:

When you are paying someone to perform a satisfactory service for you, it's important that they feel the service is valued by you. The provider sets the price, you can take it or leave it, but why should the provider have to spend uncompensated time haggling with you?

If there is any scenario that you have experienced or are aware of where negotiations (the word “haggling” inserts unnecessary bias) result in a lower price accepted by a provider, and if there was perfect information and everyone knew about it, one would expect more negotiation across comparable offerings. It would be irrational behavior for this not to be the case in a capitalist market. Can’t get more unregulated and capitalist than the industry we’re discussing here. 

It’s not necessarily accurate to characterize negotiation time (for providers) as uncompensated. That’s part of the “marketing and biz dev” time they have to put in to generate the actual dollars that come in (along with eg responding to client queries and changing the bedsheets after a client visit during hours that are not directly paid for). I assume the rate that I agree to pay a provider includes a pro rated allocation for those types of items. 

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

Hell, I say haggle until your heart's content.  Most escorts are used to the lookie-loos.

Just be smart enough to know WHO to haggle with and not doing it as the constant behavior.  Understand that not all the escorts you approach are thirsting for your business, gladly taking any random number you throw out.

As other here have said, don't be surprised if the escort stops responding.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by BenjaminNicholas

[DWnyc]

4 hours ago, RadioRob said:

I don’t negotiate with any of my professionals… my lawyer, doctor, dentist, Uber driver, lawn care service… their rate is their rate. If I don’t like it, I say no thanks and find someone else that is a better fit. I don’t expect them to tell me the value of my work, so I don’t attempt to tell them their value. 

Now I may say no thanks and they make a counter offer… but I never expect it. In most cases I won’t accept it either as I would assume the session is going to be adjusted accordingly. 

Generally it’s either a “when are you free” or “sorry but that is outside of what I can do, thanks anyway” response. 

And 50% of my day job is negotiating with my company’s service providers. My compensation and continued employment is tied to how successful I am doing that. My negotiating counterparty’s are also, I presume. 

[mike carey]

I would venture to suggest that in business where there is negotiation it is about the terms of the entire arrangement not just for the price element of it. Negotiation about price would generally be on the basis that what was to be delivered would be subject to change in order to arrive at the customer's preferred price. In this, and some other businesses, what's being offered is a defined product that neither party is much interested in changing. Here, time is the central element of what is on offer, so understandably most providers are reluctant to vary the price for their time (and what they do with the client in that time isn't part of their price structure). For longer engagements there are things within the time involved that are amenable to negotiation, such as private time for the provider, degree of exclusivity, the cost of incidental activities and meals, and the like, many of which should be agreed in advance so both parties are clear on expectations, irrespective of whether they will affect the price.

[Simon Suraci]

7 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

Did you charge by the word? 

@SirBillybob rivals even my long-winded contributions 😂 

[Simon Suraci]

6 hours ago, Jaroslav said:

I don’t think less of you for arguing with me. People should be able to disagree without insult.

I like your attitude here @Jaroslav . I think we can all benefit to remember we’re here for good reasons from sharing information to entertainment, to enjoying community.

Disagreements and back and forth debates are natural. We don’t have to take them all that seriously. I can occasionally take it too seriously and then remember: oh yeah, duh, this is pretty low stakes stuff.

I’m grateful we have the space to talk about everything we do on these forums. I’ve learned quite a bit so far. I like hearing other perspectives. I learn more that way.

[Marc in Calif]

9 hours ago, Jaroslav said:

That’s true for every profession.

Yet no professional in this forum has agreed with you about whether negotiating a standard fee is the rule rather than the exception.

Your simplistic conclusions are not backed up by real-world experiences.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Marc in Calif

[+ APPLE1]

Doctors, dentists, lawyers,.... With healthcare, that is pure semantics. While an individual patient may not have negotiated, if a patient is covered under a health plan, and seeing a participating healthcare provider, the insurance company or the government negotiated the rate ahead of time. And while I am not a big negotiater, I have had crappy dental plans with capped yearly payouts that were low, and I very easily negotiated with the dentist to pay up front the same as the insurance would have paid for covered services.

It's certainly not unheard of for lawyers to negotiate rates. I have certainly negotiated legal fees before, AND I wasn't met with shock or indignation by doing so.

I think negotiations are driven by both culture and industry standards.

Culture is pretty straight forward. Like @Unicorn pointed out, in some parts of the world it's common place, and I think it extends even beyond "where" you are. Anywhere people grow up and/or go through daily life seeing people negotiate almost everything, they come to understand it as a normal every day occurrence. 

When it comes to negotiating at a car dealership, I think most of us find it normal industry standard. Up until a few years ago, it wasn't "normal" to negotiate a realestate agent commission, but then the US market changed. As I understand, it's become somewhat common place now to negotiate relestate comissions.

The other thing that makes negotiations more approachable with car dealers, and realestate agents, is that both are small businesses for all practical purposes.

When @Jarrod_Uncut started a recent thread on whether to charge X or Y, there seemed to be a lot of responses from both clients and providers talking about price shaving, fee offers, and counter offers. Obviously providers here are small business, and based on the responses I've read on this site, there are in fact providers who actively engage in negotiations.

I am certainly not saying anyone, provider or client, should or shouldn't negotiate. Given my perception of culture and industry standards, I don't feel like offense or indignation is warranted for negotiation or attempted negotiation though.

On a completely personal note, I will negotiate with a car dealer, a dentist, and lawyer, but I shop in stores with clear prices, and I applaud providers like @Jamie21  @Jarrod_Uncut, or any other provider who makes it clear what I getting and what I am paying. I will then take it or leave it, but I am not negotiating with a provider.

Edited April 15, 2023 by APPLE1

[DWnyc]

4 hours ago, mike carey said:

Here, time is the central element of what is on offer, so understandably most providers are reluctant to vary the price for their time (and what they do with the client in that time isn't part of their price structure).

Agreed but there is still the issue of if the provider is accurately pricing their time relative to what the market will tolerate. 

Some client negotiation may be knee jerk, but some of it could also be either a gut feeling or actual knowledge that pricing is out of whack with the market.

Providers have more ability to organize than clients in this industry and even that doesn’t typically happen, so it’s not like a David/Goliath confrontation. 

[Jaroslav]

6 hours ago, Marc in Calif said:

Yet no professional in this forum has agreed with you about whether negotiating a standard fee is the rule rather than the exception.

Your simplistic conclusions are not backed up by real-world experiences.

That was in reference to saying someone who hasn’t escorted knows how to escort, not about fees.

Further, never did I say it was a rule. I’m saying it happens and we should admit it happens.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Jaroslav

[Jaroslav]

6 hours ago, mike carey said:

Here, time is the central element of what is on offer, so understandably most providers are reluctant to vary the price for their time (and what they do with the client in that time isn't part of their price structure). For longer engagements there are things within the time involved that are amenable to negotiation, such as private time for the provider, degree of exclusivity, the cost of incidental activities and meals, and the like, many of which should be agreed in advance so both parties are clear on expectations, irrespective of whether they will affect the price.

I’ve had providers ask what I’m looking for, tell them, and say, “For that it’s $X.” While it’s nice to think they’re not charging for what happens during that time, they do there was A question here in another thread about bareback rates. That’s not time per se. If it were time, it wouldn’t matter if it were safe only, bareback, cuddling, coffee, pedicure, etc. The fact that bareback and safe only cost different things with some providers means it’s not always just time, and therefore asking and potentially negotiating enters the equation.

The second example clearly shows all the potential for negotiation that isn’t tacky but is in fact good practice for both client and provider. What is expected for what? And is there any room to meet at something agreeable? I don’t think discussing that is tacking, nor is coming to some sort of agreement where everyone is happy.

[Jaroslav]

22 minutes ago, arnemgreeves said:

There is a stated price on escort sites for clear and patent reasons. 

That’s actually not true for every escort or every site or every country.