Do you think current controversies with the transgender movement are making being gay more socially acceptable?

[caramelsub]

I feel like it is. When I was growing up as a 90s/early 2000s kid I felt like people thought being gay was the most taboo thing in the world. Kids especially boys, in middle and high school would call each other gay as an insult. I don’t know if kids these days still do that. And now we have the transgender movement, which has overshadowed the gay rights movement and has become the new taboo topic of recent years. I think the fight for transgender rights is in turn, making being gay more socially acceptable. I hear many people who are anti-trans state things like they “should just be gay”, or “they can be gay.” I don’t think being gay would ever be as socially acceptable as being straight, but I think we are moving in the right direction.

[+ José Soplanucas]

Being gay was already more socially accepted when the trans controversy raised. Your are mistaking causality and correlation.  

[caramelsub]

Yes being gay was always more socially accepted than being trans. I just feel like being gay is even more socially accepted now than ever before, because the transgender movement has boomed in recent years. I just hear of people complaining about transgender women winning women’s beauty pageants, and winning women's athletic competitions, I think it’s reduced the stigma of just being gay. 

Edited November 24, 2022 by caramelsub

[+ José Soplanucas]

I do not think so. If there is any casualty, it is inverted. It is the normalization of alternative sexualities what allows the debate around alternative genders.

[Guest]

I think there are varying levels to the bigotry in someone’s mind that has a tough time accepting non hetero normative concepts. 
 

I come from an extremely bigoted family. Oddly, it isn’t rooted in religion, they just really believe that straight white people are superior and anyone with melanin in their skin is less than. 
 

My cousins and I, along with one of my 3 brothers openly talk about this and have committed to being better for the next generation of our family. 2 brothers can’t break the cycle but one suffers from sever alcoholism and will be dead soon so we take the victories where we can get them. 
 

Anyway, back in 2002 my lone female cousin fell for a black man. He was lovely and I enjoyed him a lot. We decided as a team, she’d come out to the family as being in an interracial relationship and I’d come out as gay, surmising that if we were shunned we’d at least have each other, and best case, the combined reality of our “evolution” would force all of our parents into acceptance. 
 

It didn’t go as planned. On the scale of things that were unacceptable in our family, we quickly learned that our family was far more racist than homophobic. She got decimated. Every conversation went something like “yeah yeah yeah we get it you’re gay, but did you hear she’s dating a black man?”  Being gay, as long as I was not with another race was ok in their eyes. Her dating a black man was loathsome and unforgivable. I felt awful for her and such compassion. For a time she thought my intentions weren’t pure and that I somehow anticipated this reaction and used her to shield myself. I didn’t. I was as amazed at the acceptance I got as much as I was amazed at just how awful she got it.  In hindsight, I do believe that if I came out without her distraction, my reception would have been similar to hers though.
 

I think peoples’ reaction to the transgender movement is similar. “I am getting more used to gay people existing and I’m ok with that, but I’m not quite ready to learn, understand and accept the gender conversation yet.”  
 

At least that’s my experience. I even have gay friends that are transphobic. I have straight Allie’s that are wildly supportive of me as a gay man but don’t grasp trans and openly rail against it. It’s so odd to me, but it’s real. 
 

 

[+ Charlie]

I suspect that your family's reaction to the joint announcement may have resulted at least somewhat from the fact that other people wouldn't necessarily know that you were gay, but everyone could see that her boyfriend was Black. Many families certainly used to feel that it didn't really matter so much that you were gay as long as their neighbors, friends, co-workers, etc., didn't know. I remember when I was in my late teens that I realized that my father's cousin Fred was gay, but not out in any public sense.  I also realized that my parents knew he was gay, Fred's mother, aunts and uncles all knew (they accepted his close "friend" as a family member), but they never acknowledged the fact except within the family.

[+ Lucky]

I wish that we had openly transgender posters here. I so need educating on this topic. I am gay, but I don't have any depth of knowledge on trans issues from a personal point of view.

[+ Charlie]

I used to fantasize about being a girl when I was an adolescent, but it was basically because girls could kiss boys. Once I found that I could date boys, too, I lost interest in transitioning.

[caramelsub]

I watch straight porn a lot, only because I sometimes fantasize about being the woman having sex with the hot guy or even better, group of guys. I love the idea of being manhandled roughly by dominant men. But that’s as far as it goes for me as far as wanting to be a woman. 😝 

[+ José Soplanucas]

My closest personal experience was when I was a pre-adolescent and an adolescent. I had a group of cousins that included one girl and three boys, including me. One of the other boys was clearly bisexual and the other one as gay as I am. We used to enjoy a role play game where we would represent a family and switch roles. 

One of my aunts led an academy of folkloric dance and had a wardrobe with male and female traditional clothing. When one of the boys had to play the role of the wife, we would get in one of those dresses. I still remember one day, I was playing the wife and step out to the street to get in my uncle track while my gay cousin played the husband. One of his high school friends (I was living in Buenos Aires, this was happening in a small town inside the country) passed by and asked him who was the pretty lady with him. Of course, I giggled and rushed.

My second experience is much less close to a trans situation. During the 80s and 90s I experimented with acting and directing theater. I was hired one weekend to drag and lip sing tangos in a disco. I still remember how painful the experience was because I could not find high heel shoes my size.

[ColumbianXChange]

those of us who have been lucky enough to live in other countries -- perhaps thailand and the philippines -- know how ridiculous the american angst over trans-persons is.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, José Soplanucas said:

Being gay was already more socially accepted when the trans controversy raised. Your are mistaking causality and correlation.  

Yes, I agree. If anything, there are places where it's more acceptable to be trans than gay, probably mostly in the Muslim world (I'm not sure about Russia, probably the most homophobic non-Muslim country). In Iran, one can get sex change operations, but homosexuality is punishable by death. Even in the US, trans surgery was common even before gay sex was legalized. Now trans people are more marginalized, but I don't think it's because gays and lesbians are less marginalized, or the other way around. 

I must confess that there was a time when I thought trans women were just gay men who were "cheaters," who wanted a bigger share of the male population. I now realize I was quite wrong; I know now that just having a larger selection of (straight) men is not the motivator for those who get the surgery. In fact, some trans men are gay (thankfully). I'm not sure what I'd do if I lived in Iran and no options other than celibacy, deception, or gender reassignment surgery. 

There's an organization to which I donate called the Rainbow Railroad which dedicates itself to helping LGBT people leave oppressive countries such as Iran, Arab countries, and Russia. Here's a link in case any of you might like to donate (or know someone who needs their services):

https://www.rainbowrailroad.org/about

Edited November 24, 2022 by Unicorn

[+ José Soplanucas]

2 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Russia, probably the most homophobic non-Muslim country

I am also unsure of this statement. African subsaharian countries are dominated by homophobic legislation, and homophobic cultures foster by the local brace of Catholicism and many Christian churches. Evangelicals are a disgrace for humanity. Only South Africa, I think, is an oasis of gay friendly legislation. At least that is what the adult entertainer who Rhyheim flew from Johanesburgo told me.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, José Soplanucas said:

I am also unsure of this statement. African subsaharian countries are dominated by homophobic legislation, and homophobic cultures foster by the local brace of Catholicism and many Christian churches. Evangelicals are a disgrace for humanity. Only South Africa, I think, is an oasis of gay friendly legislation. At least that is what the adult entertainer who Rhyheim flew from Johanesburgo told me.

You're right. I forgot about Uganda, which is the worst non-Muslim country. Things are quite bad in Kenya, Tanzania, and Burundi as well. 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

On 11/23/2022 at 6:53 PM, caramelsub said:

I feel like it is. When I was growing up as a 90s/early 2000s kid I felt like people thought being gay was the most taboo thing in the world. Kids especially boys, in middle and high school would call each other gay as an insult. I don’t know if kids these days still do that. And now we have the transgender movement, which has overshadowed the gay rights movement and has become the new taboo topic of recent years. I think the fight for transgender rights is in turn, making being gay more socially acceptable. I hear many people who are anti-trans state things like they “should just be gay”, or “they can be gay.” I don’t think being gay would ever be as socially acceptable as being straight, but I think we are moving in the right direction.

A survey of young adults shows increasing acceptance of gays from the 90s through the 2010s. However, in the late 2010s survey results showed a declining trend in young adult approval of gays, around the time of the school bathroom gender controversy began. Therefore, gays have given a spotlight to transgender, but transgender is reversing gay acceptance a little bit.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/06/24/lgbtq-acceptance-millennials-decline-glaad-survey/1503758001/

[pubic_assistance]

On 11/25/2022 at 4:23 AM, Vegas_nw1982 said:

in the late 2010s survey results showed a declining trend in young adult approval of gays,

I would point out that this coincides with the young adult trend of declaring themselves "poly".

[Bucky]

Check out the pages (4-7) asking for the applicant's demograghics.

Have we gone too far?   

https://www.giftincome.org/_files/ugd/40a234_fa065a88cf9b481bbae6e47c5598270c.pdf

Edited December 1, 2022 by Bucky

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bucky said:

...

Have we gone too far?...

Well, not we, but some people are really off their rockers.

I will say that I'm uncomfortable with using taxpayer money to help only a certain demographic, benefitting only those with a certain immutable characteristic. Of course, I don't mind programs which might help any person with a certain problem such as drug addiction, mental illness, even poverty. However, using money from taxes collected from all to benefit only persons of a certain gender identity, race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation definitely rubs me the wrong way. I suspect SCOTUS might feel the same way were they presented the issue. 

 

[+ José Soplanucas]

3 hours ago, Unicorn said:

I will say that I'm uncomfortable with using taxpayer money to help only a certain demographic, benefitting only those with a certain immutable characteristic.

I would say that if the tax payers money is invested in leveling the grounds and providing more opportunities to a discriminated demographic, go ahead.

I am not thoroughly reading every post, so I may be missing something. I find interesting that your response went in that direction. I thought @Bucky's concern was not about taxes but about the countless categories in the pages he is referencing.

I do think that this crazy going-after-endless labeling is going too far. I sympathize with that feeling only if it is coming from a mindset towards sexual and gender fluidity. I always though that sexuality was something to be described and explored, rather than explained and classified. I feel the same about gender, and this craziness against heteronormative supremacy is just switching to another oppressive normalization, only more inclusive. 

However, if the concern is coming from a mindset like "two or three labels are good enough, more it is going too far", I would be all for countless labels. 

[Isrhunter]

I am empathetic to trans people but I think their fight is separate from lesbians, gays, and bis. What they want and we want are different.

[+ José Soplanucas]

31 minutes ago, arnemgreeves said:

South America... (is) heavily anti-LGBT.

This is a blunt generalization and just not true. Nations like Brazil, Colombia, and Argentina have not only advance legal protections for LGBTQ+, but also an extended gay friendly culture in most cities.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

4 hours ago, arnemgreeves said:

...But in reality, many trans people still resort to sex work, without any other opportunities....

Sex work is not something I resort to.  It's something I aspire to.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Isrhunter said:

I am empathetic to trans people but I think their fight is separate from lesbians, gays, and bis. What they want and we want are different.

Respect and equal treatment under the law?

[Isrhunter]

23 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

Respect and equal treatment under the law?

Gender reassignment

[+ WilliamM]

26 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

Respect and equal treatment under the law?

Of course!