Better off Alone or Married?

[Guest]

Marriage is required for a number of benefits not provided for by domestic partnerships. If "Chris" and I were married, and we filed our income taxes jointly, our taxes would be lower as "Chris" has very little income. Marriage also side-steps inheritance taxes and other inheritance issues. Marriage is required to sponsor a foreigner for permanent residency (and eventually citizenship, obviously). Also, there is an important social difference in the minds of most people between introducing someone as a spouse vs as a domestic partner. I do not ask any religion to accept any same-sex marriage if they choose not to. By the same token, I do not need any religion telling me that I can't marry my partner in a civil union if I so choose. I do not need understanding or approval, but I will insist on acceptance. 

[lonely_john]

4 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Marriage is required to sponsor a foreigner for permanent residency (and eventually citizenship, obviously).

Thank you @Unicorn for touching this important neuralgic point, which leads me to create another (evolving thread) inspired on this one because right now I'm debating with myself about this project (I think I rushed myself into thinking about marriage) and I have my own questions and doubts about this, which I have never done and I know that there are several forum members who will help me with valuable feedback and advice based on actual experience.

[Rudynate]

On 12/8/2021 at 8:51 PM, Charlie said:

If my partner and I had been able to legally marry in the earlier years of our relationship, I would have been reluctant to do it. However, when I finally decided that the relationship was definitely permanent, after we had lived together for about thirty years, I definitely could see the the advantages of legal marriage.

Right - we had been a couple for more than 20 years.  Initially, we married because a business coach with whom I was working sold  me on all the advantages.

But it quickly became larger than that - the kind of thing where nothing had changed and everything had changed.  Not a day goes by when I don't think for a minute how grateful I am for my relationship. 

We decided to get rings and we made a date for when we were going to go pick them out.  We went to a nice jewelry store and sat down while a nice young gay boy showed us rings.  We each bought the other his ring and then went and had a nice lunch. 

We were married under the rotunda in the San Francisco City Hall with my husband's brother and sister-in-law as our witnesses, nobody else present.  We had a nice lunch then went away to stay for a few days at our favorite cushy resort in Sonoma.

[pubic_assistance]

10 hours ago, Charlie said:

My own wedding ceremony was performed by a deputized County Commissioner for Civil Marriages.

Same here.

My wife and I were best friends for many years before we married and raised a family. We didn't have any interest in religious ceremony. Just felt we needed clarity on property matters and the children. Never had any romantic notions about being able to marry in a church. Neither of us are members anywhere so it really didn't matter to us. Simple civil ceremony with a witness and we were done. We couldn't care less what it's called.

Edited December 11, 2021 by pubic_assistance
grammar

[+ Charlie]

1 hour ago, Rudynate said:

Right - we had been a couple for more than 20 years.  Initially, we married because a business coach with whom I was working sold  me on all the advantages.

But it quickly became larger than that - the kind of thing where nothing had changed and everything had changed.  Not a day goes by when I don't think for a minute how grateful I am for my relationship. 

We decided to get rings and we made a date for when we were going to go pick them out.  We went to a nice jewelry store and sat down while a nice young gay boy showed us rings.  We each bought the other his ring and then went and had a nice lunch. 

We were married under the rotunda in the San Francisco City Hall with my husband's brother and sister-in-law as our witnesses, nobody else present.  We had a nice lunch then went away to stay for a few days at our favorite cushy resort in Sonoma.

Our experiences were pretty similar to yours. I had inherited my grandfather's gold wedding ring, made of gold from a mine in which he owned shares, so I repurposed it: I took it to a jeweler, who carefully re-sized it for me, without disturbing the engraving on the inside of the band of the date of my grandparents' marriage.  Then we went to an estate sale company and bought a simple antique gold wedding band for my spouse. Old rings seemed suitable, since we had already been living together for 45 years.

Our only witnesses (two were required) at the ceremony in the "wedding room" at the courthouse were Lucky and his spouse. Then the four of us went to a nice restaurant for lunch. There was no honeymoon.

 

[+ VictorPowers]

This question can be answered in so many ways and I think it really boils down to personal situations. I went through a very nasty divorce that took a year and a half to finalize. It was brutal and I enjoyed being single and finding myself. In that stage, I was happy being single. My preference is to have a significant other, so I didn’t want that to be my norm.

[Rockey]

My spouse and I have been together for over 30 years. It's funny but we wanted to be married to each other very much and exchanged rings and committed to each other 1 1/2 years after dating.  Then we ran up to Vermont when they approved civil unions; got civil unionized and finally married years later.  For us, being together is more enjoyable than being single.

[EastbayMike]

If you like being married, married is better. If you like being single, don't get married.  I've been with my husband for over 25 years.  It works for us. I can't imagine my life any other way.  No regrets. 

[Alex93108]

On 12/5/2021 at 3:03 PM, jessmapex said:

As a gay man, in my 20s, 30s and early 40s I thought being single with providers taking care of the carnal part and other single friends to rely on for the social/emotional support part would be a good model to live a happy life. But in late 40s and early 50s the friend network dispersed and due to the pandemic it nearly dissipated. Provider quality deteriorated. That, in addition to waning interest in carnal pleasures, rising costs also caused the carnal side of my life to become unstable.

Now I dig stable, loving companionship/ partnership. But I know I won't be happy with that arrangement either..given the freedoms I have grown accustomed to. 

Most likely I will die alone. But the memories of hot times with beautiful sexy providers will keep me company forever.

I wasn't going to respond but this post prompted me to write something.

Covid changed me. Prior to 2020 I was a toxic busy person, shuttling from airport to airport,  meeting to meeting. I started a business in my 30s from scratch that is still going strong, but it required me to be somewhat self-centered, focus entirely on growing the business and work ridiculously long hours.  

For those of you who live in New York, the work culture pre 2020 ( from 2010-2020) very much encouraged that. New York loves the capitalist jerk - it’s practically encouraged and celebrated.   I wasn't seeing "providers" at the time, I wish I had, I think this would have led to me to discount real relationships completely.  Why bother – when I can just order the hottest man to satisfy me? 

Then in March 2020 - my life - this life - came to a sudden halt.

The pandemic hit New York pretty bad - I had no where to turn. I had to leave town.  My own close family wouldn't even take me in ( because I was coming from NYC and may carry covid) – I was encouraged to fend for myself .That really hurt.  I couldn't' stay in Manhattan and hopped on a plane to LA and camped there with friends ( the closest thing I have to family ) for a few weeks until the situation back in New York stabilized .  People I have known for years in California wouldn’t even see me, and many people shunned me, my own family included .  It was March 2020 and I was coming from the epicenter of the pandemic. People were, genuinely scared. 

When all hell breaks loose - its not fun to be alone. Its almost cruel.

I also had friends who died unexpectedly of covid in March 2020 - that led similar lives, including a good friend of mine who is also gay that  also started a business ( in a different industry) around the same time I did. We both gave up on dating in NYC - it was too hard, too toxic, too much work. It was just easier to hook up/ hire  and focus on our work.  When this friend of mine died - he essentially died alone. I was in LA - no one could see him. We couldn't find his body - it was lost in the maze of bodies piled up outside New York presbyterian hospital on the east side. I had to organize a clean up of his apartment . There was no funeral.

That changed me.

So I said screw it – I’m not ugly or undesirable, lets give this a shot. Admittedly, the last real relationship I had was in my 30s, after 10 years I was a bit rusty. In the Spring of 2021, I decided to try to court some men I might like.  It didn't work out. Then in Summer 2021 I tried again, it didn't work out. Then in the fall this year, something unexpected fell in my lap from a totally unexpected place.  It’s still going, and so far its been quite delightful actually. We talk almost every day.

I've made the conscious decision that is sucks to be alone - and life is so much better shared, in which ever form it takes. I have a lot of love and affection  to give, and I would like to think I’m a bit of a romantic. If it doesn't work out, well I'll die trying.  At least I tried.   My friend who died of covid, roughly the same age as me, never got the chance. 

I am quite happy with my life the way it is. I don’t know If being partnered or married will make me happier,  I know plenty of unhappily married men – but having someone to talk to regularly who is not my family who cares about me just a little bit more than a friend would has improved my life somewhat – mainly because it gives me something to work towards, other than myself, and it balances me somewhat emotionally -

What happened since marriage became legal ( other the same state and federal rights as the straights  ) is its given the gays an end game – prior to that I really never saw the point of a steady partner, but as I have gotten older, and certainly since March 2020, I do see the point of this now.

Providers are performers by the hour - they really don’t care about you. As much as you may think that. Its not easy, but I aspire for something a bit more genuine.  I think everyone should too. 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by jetlow

[+ augustus]

Marriage can be dangerous.  I know a guy in Kentucky who was with his partner for about 15 years and owns an antique shop.  When the Supreme Court ruled, this guy's partner insisted on getting married right away.   So they were married.  About a month later the partner takes a bunch of antiques from the shop and takes off for CA with a younger man.  So the guy calls the cops and made a report about the stolen items from the antique shop.  The next day someone from the prosecutor's office called him and said this is matrimonial matter, and not a criminal matter.  To make matters worse some of the antiques taken were not even his.  They were on consignment.  He has been involved with civil litigation since then. A total nightmare.  

[+ augustus]

32 minutes ago, jetlow said:

 My own close family wouldn't even take me in ( because I was coming from NYC and may carry covid) – I was encouraged to fend for myself .That really hurt.

That sucks!  Covid is not the bubonic plague or cholera or yellow fever.  People have way overreacted.  Make sure to exclude them from your will. 

[+ jessmapex]

8 hours ago, jetlow said:

I wasn't going to respond but this post prompted me to write something.

Covid changed me. Prior to 2020 I was a toxic busy person, shuttling from airport to airport,  meeting to meeting. I started a business in my 30s from scratch that is still going strong, but it required me to be somewhat self-centered, focus entirely on growing the business and work ridiculously long hours.  

For those of you who live in New York, the work culture pre 2020 ( from 2010-2020) very much encouraged that. New York loves the capitalist jerk - it’s practically encouraged and celebrated.   I wasn't seeing "providers" at the time, I wish I had, I think this would have led to me to discount real relationships completely.  Why bother – when I can just order the hottest man to satisfy me? 

Then in March 2020 - my life - this life - came to a sudden halt.

The pandemic hit New York pretty bad - I had no where to turn. I had to leave town.  My own close family wouldn't even take me in ( because I was coming from NYC and may carry covid) – I was encouraged to fend for myself .That really hurt.  I couldn't' stay in Manhattan and hopped on a plane to LA and camped there with friends ( the closest thing I have to family ) for a few weeks until the situation back in New York stabilized .  People I have known for years in California wouldn’t even see me, and many people shunned me, my own family included .  It was March 2020 and I was coming from the epicenter of the pandemic. People were, genuinely scared. 

When all hell breaks loose - its not fun to be alone. Its almost cruel.

I also had friends who died unexpectedly of covid in March 2020 - that led similar lives, including a good friend of mine who is also gay that  also started a business ( in a different industry) around the same time I did. We both gave up on dating in NYC - it was too hard, too toxic, too much work. It was just easier to hook up/ hire  and focus on our work.  When this friend of mine died - he essentially died alone. I was in LA - no one could see him. We couldn't find his body - it was lost in the maze of bodies piled up outside New York presbyterian hospital on the east side. I had to organize a clean up of his apartment . There was no funeral.

That changed me.

So I said screw it – I’m not ugly or undesirable, lets give this a shot. Admittedly, the last real relationship I had was in my 30s, after 10 years I was a bit rusty. In the Spring of 2021, I decided to try to court some men I might like.  It didn't work out. Then in Summer 2021 I tried again, it didn't work out. Then in the fall this year, something unexpected fell in my lap from a totally unexpected place.  It’s still going, and so far its been quite delightful actually. We talk almost every day.

I've made the conscious decision that is sucks to be alone - and life is so much better shared, in which ever form it takes. I have a lot of love and affection  to give, and I would like to think I’m a bit of a romantic. If it doesn't work out, well I'll die trying.  At least I tried.   My friend who died of covid, roughly the same age as me, never got the chance. 

I am quite happy with my life the way it is. I don’t know If being partnered or married will make me happier,  I know plenty of unhappily married men – but having someone to talk to regularly who is not my family who cares about me just a little bit more than a friend would has improved my life somewhat – mainly because it gives me something to work towards, other than myself, and it balances me somewhat emotionally -

What happened since marriage became legal ( other the same state and federal rights as the straights  ) is its given the gays an end game – prior to that I really never saw the point of a steady partner, but as I have gotten older, and certainly since March 2020, I do see the point of this now.

Providers are performers by the hour - they really don’t care about you. As much as you may think that. Its not easy, but I aspire for something a bit more genuine.  I think everyone should too. 

 

 

I totally agree that providers are performers and meeting them is more transactional than anything else. However the fact that they are available (as long as I have a phone, a place, and good bank balance) is equivalent to knowing there is a well stocked grocery store in town in case I am starving or need something. ( Some of you may recall even this was hard to come by in the early days of the pandemic). 

You are lucky you found a long term companion and are enjoying your time with him/her. But some of us are not that lucky because of various reasons.

Even with friends, a companion , and family there is nothing sure as you yourself saw when the pandemic began. Real family is one thing, but a lot of us from the pre-gay-marriage era thought of close friends from the 20s and 30s as family (Friendsgiving is how we celebrated Thanksgiving) . But those friendships evaporated fast as everyone aged or found greener pastures. A few lasted, but pandemic and the political divide last summer took them away as well. 

I will find new friends..may be even a LTR. But knowing and having a "well stocked store" nearby will always be reassuring. 

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, augustus said:

Marriage can be dangerous.  I know a guy in Kentucky who was with his partner for about 15 years and owns an antique shop.  When the Supreme Court ruled, this guy's partner insisted on getting married right away.   So they were married.  About a month later the partner takes a bunch of antiques from the shop and takes off for CA with a younger man.  So the guy calls the cops and made a report about the stolen items from the antique shop.  The next day someone from the prosecutor's office called him and said this is matrimonial matter, and not a criminal matter.  To make matters worse some of the antiques taken were not even his.  They were on consignment.  He has been involved with civil litigation since then. A total nightmare.  

After 15 years, you'd think you'd know a person. But that's what pre-nuptial agreements are for. Foolish to get married without them. 

[KeepItReal]

9 hours ago, jetlow said:

The pandemic hit New York pretty bad - I had no where to turn. I had to leave town.  My own close family wouldn't even take me in ( because I was coming from NYC and may carry covid) – I was encouraged to fend for myself .That really hurt.  I couldn't' stay in Manhattan and hopped on a plane to LA and camped there with friends ( the closest thing I have to family ) for a few weeks until the situation back in New York stabilized .  People I have known for years in California wouldn’t even see me, and many people shunned me, my own family included .  It was March 2020 and I was coming from the epicenter of the pandemic. People were, genuinely scared. 

 

I don't follow...You say you had to leave town.. You say you couldn't stay home... Why?

Why didn't you just stay in your home like the rest of the folks in NYC? 🤔

[Alex93108]

15 minutes ago, KeepItReal said:

I don't follow...You say you had to leave town.. You say you couldn't stay home... Why?

Why didn't you just stay in your home like the rest of the folks in NYC? 🤔

After a long day at the office, in the height of the panic,  I went to my local supermarket - Fairway on the Upper West Side - and there was no food, no supplies, nothing.  The shelves were bare. Went to the local pharmacy - Duane Reade, no flu or cold medicines to be had.

I live by myself - and single, with no family nearby to speak of.. Friends that I could possibly counted have on left town.  I figured if I ever got sick, I would be on my own and possibly die in my apartment.

It became a matter of survival.  I packed my suitcase and headed to JFK, back to California - where I had some people I could count on.. Came back about a month later. 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by jetlow

[Alex93108]

1 hour ago, jessmapex said:

I totally agree that providers are performers and meeting them is more transactional than anything else. However the fact that they are available (as long as I have a phone, a place, and good bank balance) is equivalent to knowing there is a well stocked grocery store in town in case I am starving or need something. ( Some of you may recall even this was hard to come by in the early days of the pandemic). 

You are lucky you found a long term companion and are enjoying your time with him/her. But some of us are not that lucky because of various reasons.

Even with friends, a companion , and family there is nothing sure as you yourself saw when the pandemic began. Real family is one thing, but a lot of us from the pre-gay-marriage era thought of close friends from the 20s and 30s as family (Friendsgiving is how we celebrated Thanksgiving) . But those friendships evaporated fast as everyone aged or found greener pastures. A few lasted, but pandemic and the political divide last summer took them away as well. 

I will find new friends..may be even a LTR. But knowing and having a "well stocked store" nearby will always be reassuring. 

 

Haha its early days - and its a him. He's sweet. 

Its a numbers game. I figure 1-2% of the population is gay, take out the crazies, the top/bottom/vers dynamics , and there are not many people to work with. Its way easier to find a mate as a straight person, you simply have more people!

[topunderachiever]

12 minutes ago, jetlow said:

 I figure 1-2% of the population is gay

While Kinsey's claim that 10% are gay was indeed flawed, it's universally accepted that it's much closer to that than 2%.  

I'd speculate in NYC it's even more.   

[+ sniper]

31 minutes ago, topunderachiever said:

While Kinsey's claim that 10% are gay was indeed flawed, it's universally accepted that it's much closer to that than 2%.  

I'd speculate in NYC it's even more.   

eh it's  more in the cities that gay people flee too, but If you're counting Kinsey 5s and 6s, I'd say it's more like 3-5% of the general population, BUT I believe there are several times more bisexuals than homosexuals, but the bisexuals often wind up with opposite-sex life partners because of numbers and it's easier to have kids. As a matter of survival gay people tend to gather in areas where we are overrepresented.

[KeepItReal]

4 hours ago, jetlow said:

After a long day at the office, in the height of the panic,  I went to my local supermarket - Fairway on the Upper West Side - and there was no food, no supplies, nothing.  The shelves were bare. Went to the local pharmacy - Duane Reade, no flu or cold medicines to be had.

I live by myself - and single, with no family nearby to speak of.. Friends that I could possibly counted have on left town.  I figured if I ever got sick, I would be on my own and possibly die in my apartment.

It became a matter of survival.  I packed my suitcase and headed to JFK, back to California - where I had some people I could count on.. Came back about a month later. 

 

 

Okay, now I understand. It's not that you had to leave the city; you chose to leave the city because of circumstances. 🤓

I decided to stay in NYC ... but I was prepared - after hurricane Sandy I created a standing reminder on my calendar for 1st of July to swap out/replace my emergency supplies so I can stay put in case of an emergency. 

[pubic_assistance]

On 12/14/2021 at 3:01 PM, jetlow said:

The shelves were bare.

So dramatic !

Yes. There were shortages on items and the shelves less than fully stocked. But at no point did the Upper West Side look like the Soviet Union. I would say the only thing that consistently was empty was the toilet paper and paper towels aisle.

[Alex93108]

I’ve been to Russia countless times .  The soviet union ended before I had the chance to visit .

This looks quite dire to me - for New York 

Granted it was re stocked a few days after ( so i heard ) I picked up and left and went to California 

Edited December 16, 2021 by jetlow

[pubic_assistance]

Those shelves on the left look fully stocked.

Admit it: You left town because your favorite brand of cold cuts were out of stock for two days.

 

 

 

[+ Lucky]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

Those shelves on the left look fully stocked.

Admit it: You left town because your favorite brand of cold cuts were out of stock for two days.

 

 

 

I think you are being more rude than funny.

[pubic_assistance]

6 hours ago, Lucky said:

I think you are being more rude than funny.

Everyone else thought I was being funny.

Which was my intent.

Maybe you just need to loosen your girdle and find the humor in life.

Edited December 17, 2021 by pubic_assistance

[Rudynate]

I thought people were beginning to hoard food again.  Canned beans seem to be in short supply.