Please, please, please STAY HOME - that massage is STILL not worth your life

[Capitano]

I am definitely back to getting massages. I take the usual basic precautions that have helped me avoid seasonal flus over the years (in fact, I don't remember the last time I had it), washing hands and not touching eyes/mouth/nose, and not getting close to anyone who coughs and/or looks ill. I am not particularly scared of COVID, nor do I wear a mask unless I am required to by the business I go into.

 

Ivor Cummins - YouTube

 

This one is in French, Dr. Raoult is the world's most published researcher specializing in infectious deseases. He doesn't wear a mask and thinks that lockdowns are idiocy. And yeah, hydroxychloroquine works.

IHU Méditerranée-Infection - YouTube

Edited January 6, 2021 by Capitano

[BostonTom]

Still much less than in April-May of 2020. Also very few people on ventilators and most are sent home after a few days. The death rate is much lower too.

[SirBillybob]

I am not impressed by Raoult. Shrewd, yes; genius no. Contrarian, yes; defends against attributions of narcissism, no. Ubiquitous presence in Science Citations Index, yes; contributes meaningfully to a majority of publications that come out of the 800-person institute and include his name based on publication-padding, no. Attention-seeking, yes; critical self-appraisal, no. Research scofflaw, yes; research trustworthy, no.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/05/12/magazine/didier-raoult-hydroxychloroquine.amp.html

[Luv2play]

I am definitely back to getting massages. I take the usual basic precautions that have helped me avoid seasonal flus over the years (in fact, I don't remember the last time I had it), washing hands and not touching eyes/mouth/nose, and not getting close to anyone who coughs and/or looks ill. I am not particularly scared of COVID, nor do I wear a mask unless I am required to by the business I go into.

 

Ivor Cummins - YouTube

 

This one is in French, Dr. Raoult is the world's most published researcher specializing in infectious deseases. He doesn't wear a mask and thinks that lockdowns are idiocy. And yeah, hydroxychloroquine works.

IHU Méditerranée-Infection - YouTube

Yeah, if you read the whole article about this French doctor in the NYT, you will find out that of the more than 1000 patients he treated with hydroxy, about 2 per cent died, a number of others were left with permanent health impacts, and the rest recovered. In other words, about the same outcome for those not treated.

 

In a smaller study he conducted earlier, he omitted the cases where the patient died so his test results looked better. As a result he was dropped by two official bodies of the French government as a authorized scientific collaborator.

 

It seems he had some successes early in his career years ago and then over time became full of himself. Now his studies and papers are largely ignored by the scientific and medical community.

[jtwalker]

If we can't get a massage; if we can't hang out with family and friends; if we can't go out in public; if we can't go to the gym or school or work...

 

That just isn't living.

 

There are two sides to this coin and I support people's right to make their own choices.

[Mustang]

If we can't get a massage; if we can't hang out with family and friends; if we can't go out in public; if we can't go to the gym or school or work...

 

That just isn't living.

 

There are two sides to this coin and I support people's right to make their own choices.

 

Living should not be about putting other people's health at risk for your own amusement. It's not longer personal choice, it's personal responsibility.

[CuriousByNature]

More people getting sick and dying (or living with life-long health issues) sounds like the very definition of more dangerous to me.

Exactly. While the new variant may not be any more likely to cause death than the previous, the fact that it is 50-70% more transmissible means 50-70% more infections, 50-70% more hospitalizations, and 50-70% more deaths. Possibly even more than that if hospitals and ICUs hit their limit. In the summer some provinces in Canada were down to single digits for hospitalizations, while now the numbers are in the hundreds, if not thousands, depending on the province. Now is not the time for complacency. @big dale I appreciate your post and hope others heed your advice.

[SirBillybob]

If we can't get a massage; if we can't hang out with family and friends; if we can't go out in public; if we can't go to the gym or school or work...

 

That just isn't living.

 

This would be a sad parody of The Darkest Hour’s pivotal radio-broadcasted speech (Oldman as Churchill).

 

If I interpret your 2 sides of the coin correctly ... ‘tails’ personal choice is individualistic and equates to assuming risk on personal health and life for the sake of self-perceived quality of life, where the assumed risk level is directly proportional to CoV transmission potential beyond self, of a domino effect nature, as average case reproduction is no less than 1.0 and every 38th American domino is removed from the chain and headed to the graveyard; ‘heads’ personal choice is collectivistic and trades off personal quality of life for greater probability of skirting unsolicited undesirable personal morbidity and/or mortality as well as certain death (odds 97.2% death avoidance your favour) within 38 transmission cycles as spearheaded by ‘tails’ orientation preference.

 

In an expanding pandemic reality where mortality is a minority outcome, every preventable infection nevertheless kills somewhere down the transmission line.

 

Thing is, the liberty of pursuit of happiness viz life worth living cannot be separated from the life/death binary of others. We do not live in a vacuum. The nature of CoV is such that the most stalwart of those with ‘heads’ orientation cannot totally prophylax against exposure to folks aligned with the other side of the coin. Sacrifice for survival is zero-sum. The less one side of the coin sacrifices the more the other must sacrificially compensate. That’s the dance.

 

Sure, it’s a long and winding link from your risk tolerance autonomy to somebody’s death. However, if the future we actually now know could be imposed on the present, would it be so outrageous for the dead to importune quality of life sacrifice? Why is others’ desire for the means to survival, whether or not they grasp those means and apply them, so rapidly conflated with a direct challenge to liberty?

Edited January 6, 2021 by SirBIllybob

[SirBillybob]

The best way to prevent the spread is still - WASH YOUR HANDS.

Trouble is, too many folks interpret this as a slogan for washing one’s hands of ownership for avoidable consequences.

[jtwalker]

Why is others’ desire for the means to survival, whether or not they grasp those means and apply them, so rapidly conflated with a direct challenge to liberty?

 

If your desire for survival is such that survival is more important than liberty, then stay home and you're not at risk. IT's called personal responsibility. Forcing rushed and potentially untested vaccines and wearing masks marked "not for medical use" pulled from our pockets with filthy hands is not doing anyone any good anyway. The disease isn't contagious at Lowes, but you can catch it walking around the lake? Come on! Everyone has lost their ever-loving mind!

 

We don't always like reality, but still reality persists. This disease is deadly for some and it sucks. I have lost someone to this terrible disease; I get it. Trust me. Someone once told me that the terrible thing about this disease is that everyone is going to catch it; I wish they were wrong, but here we are.

 

And WHY is this political post in the General category? You have a forum for this stuff. I'm frankly tired of hearing about it and avoid that forum for that reason. If you don't think this is political, you haven't been paying attention.

[SirBillybob]

There is debate woven within many topics within many of the board’s categories. That is human nature and the original poster tends not to be clairvoyant about the thrills chills and spills of where the road will lead. I’ll put in my 2 cents here and there but I am not one to rigidly assess what theme fits into how sections are stratified.

 

Otherwise, I agree it is reasonable to start a thread within a category that seems most appropriate for the topic.

 

I think elections are political. Much of everything else is educational and/or entertainment. If all debate is political then I don’t see the point of carving out a specific political category.

 

Directives are generally grounded in education. Negative reactivity is intrapsychic and interpersonal. I would label much of what people call ‘political’ the term dynamics.

 

Besides, it’s back on a non-politicized track, that is, distorted views of science. Misrepresentations of research are not political. They relate to degree of education and preferred lenses for interpreting objective reality. That is only political at the ballot box.

 

Debate about reality is interpersonal. If disagreement is political then agreement is political. If somebody agrees with our point of view about infection control we usually don’t say they have political sympatico with us unless there is a more overriding political alignment. Pre-pandemic sneezing into your inside elbow or not would not typically have been a phenomenon we deem to be politicized.

Edited January 6, 2021 by SirBIllybob

[Daniel84]

with all due respect, there is zero scientific proof currently that someone who had Covid in March still has immunity - yes, it's possible, but not certain. And there have been some cases of people being re-infected.

 

I understand that but I still have antibodies on my blood test.

 

Also the chance of reinfection is incredibly low at 0.3% so I follow the guidelines from NY to run my business. The people who were infected had a worse case the second time then the first infection. I was very sick for a month so if the science stays the same I would know if I was reinfected. My chances are slim as I don’t go to house party’s and keep myself protected.

 

with all due respect, there is zero scientific proof currently that someone who had Covid in March still has immunity - yes, it's possible, but not certain. And there have been some cases of people being re-infected.

[marylander1940]

I get it. We all need touch. We all get that itch. He says he keeps his table super clean. We are both going to wear a mask. The economy needs to keep moving, etc., etc., etc.

 

And that's all fine and well, except things are getting worse. Period. This isn't speculation, or mind control, or the government trying to take away your rights. This is life or DEATH. There's a new more contagious version of COVID-19 in the UK and now the US. In the Los Angeles area 1 in 5 people is thought to be infected. This is an huge increase from before the holidays.

 

Ambulances are no longer transporting people in cardiac arrest if they cannot revive you on site you get left behind. There's no capacity for people hurt in car accidents or with other health emergencies. https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/05/us/los-angeles-county-california-human-disaster-covid/index.html

 

So, yes... come here and share stories and tips, make your wish list for when things are more stable, ask about your favorite eye candy, but think twice 365,620 times before you book a massage. (That's the US death toll as of this posting.)

 

And here's the thing; I know some of you are going to lambast me, and try your straw man arguments, report this post and try to have it taken down, but I really don't care. Somebody has to say this. We need to stop this thing. It starts with each of us acting responsibly.

 

Need info on how to keep yourself safe? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/prevention.html

 

height=200pxhttps://uconn-today-universityofconn.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/GettyImages-1215979676-1024x717.jpg[/img]

 

Damn that's a record of likes!

[Capitano]

Capitano: The guys out east should really appreciate all the time - effort / "homework" you had to do to create the above list. My issues is you did not provide one or two current references for your local home boys here in the Illinois - Indiana - Ohio area.

I am not impressed by Raoult. Shrewd, yes; genius no. Contrarian, yes; defends against attributions of narcissism, no. Ubiquitous presence in Science Citations Index, yes; contributes meaningfully to a majority of publications that come out of the 800-person institute and include his name based on publication-padding, no. Attention-seeking, yes; critical self-appraisal, no. Research scofflaw, yes; research trustworthy, no.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/05/12/magazine/didier-raoult-hydroxychloroquine.amp.html

 

I go by the success rate of curing COVID at his facility in Marseille, I don't care about his personal qualities.

[Capitano]

Yeah, if you read the whole article about this French doctor in the NYT, you will find out that of the more than 1000 patients he treated with hydroxy, about 2 per cent died, a number of others were left with permanent health impacts, and the rest recovered. In other words, about the same outcome for those not treated.

 

In a smaller study he conducted earlier, he omitted the cases where the patient died so his test results looked better. As a result he was dropped by two official bodies of the French government as a authorized scientific collaborator.

 

It seems he had some successes early in his career years ago and then over time became full of himself. Now his studies and papers are largely ignored by the scientific and medical community.

 

Of course, you are welcomd to trust NYT, I trust his responses to numerous attacks that he gave in various interviews, and believe that his numbers are actually much better. That together with that other link that i gave illustrates why I feel the way I do, that's all.

[Capitano]

Living should not be about putting other people's health at risk for your own amusement. It's not longer personal choice, it's personal responsibility.

 

I don't see how you can get in the car and drive with this logic. Heck, you can hurt someone if you get on a bike or skateboard.

[CuriousByNature]

I don't see how you can get in the car and drive with this logic. Heck, you can hurt someone if you get on a bike or skateboard.

I don't think this is a fair comparison. Driving a car has a much lower risk attached to it compared to disregarding health orders with respect to covid. And no amount of health orders can absolutely prevent covid transmission, but its about harm reduction and risk mitigation. Just like the laws against drunk driving and driving without a seatbelt.

[Capitano]

I don't think this is a fair comparison. Driving a car has a much lower risk attached to it compared to disregarding health orders with respect to covid. And no amount of health orders can absolutely prevent covid transmission, but its about harm reduction and risk mitigation. Just like the laws against drunk driving and driving without a seatbelt.

 

2 problems. What exact risk level is acceptable and who decides about it? More importantly, and regarding "health orders," I WISH they were as rational as seat belt laws and laws against drunk driving. There is solid empirical support for those but, if anything, masks and lockdowns have been empirically shown to have NO discernible effect. In other words, I am for the "Swedish approach." Or SD/FL approach, sorry NY/CA/Chicago, you suck.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Capitano

[+ sam.fitzpatrick]

My favorite posts in this thread are the original post by @big dale and @Daniel84 's replies. Thank you both for clear, polite thoughts on this matter.

 

Dale - I appreciate your thoughts and fully agree that we need to limit our social interactions at this time. (I will admit I received a massage just a week ago. I went to a masseur who has provided previous massages to me and will see him again - but not for the foreseeable future.) You are correct that there are severe consequences when the virus is spread and I am reminded that I can do more to reinforce the appropriate safety protocols both through my actions and my communications with others. But the piece I feel you are overlooking is that there are ways to evaluate risks and act in ways to reduce exposure risk and "acting responsibly" while still participating in activities.

 

Daniel - You clearly understand the impacts of the virus and how easily it is transmitted. I am sure that it can be unnerving at times to know that in order to continue to have an income in your business, you are exposed to individuals that may unknowingly have the virus and expose you to it again, all the while concerned that the next client could be exposed. Although not a 100% guaranty that if the virus is presented where you see clients, you are taking appropriate actions to kill germs and reduce the likelihood of transmission which your finances will support. I hope you continue to engage these practices and stay healthy.

 

Not sure what is correct here, just needed to voice that I can see multiple angles here.

Edited January 12, 2021 by sam.fitzpatrick

[coriolis888]

-

 

It even exists on cash for weeks.

-

 

 

https://covid19.nj.gov/faqs/coronavirus-information/about-the-virus/can-covid-19-be-passed-via-currencies-(dollar-bills-coins-checks-etc.)

[CuriousByNature]

2 problems. What exact risk level is acceptable and who decides about it? More importantly, and regarding "health orders," I WISH they were as rational as seat belt laws and laws against drunk driving. There is solid empirical support for those but, if anything, masks and lockdowns have been empirically shown to have NO discernible effect. In other words, I am for the "Swedish approach." Or SD/FL approach, sorry NY/CA/Chicago, you suck.

I would be wary of advocating the Swedish approach. Even their lead epidemiologist has now admitted that trying for herd immunity by encouraging exposure has been a failure. A failure that cost thousands of lives, many of them elderly. Many, many more deaths than other Scandinavian countries. It was a big and very risky gamble that ultimately backfired, and now Sweden has been having to institute restrictions after all. Mask wearing and lockdowns do not eliminate the risk entirely, but they make the trajectory of infection and rate of hospitalization easier to manage if people comply, allowing those who need treatment to receive it effectively. And even more, it buys additional time for herd immunity to be achieved via vaccinations. No one wants to be limited in their life choices, but sometimes we need to consider the long game, and which actions we can support to bring the majority of people through this pandemic succesfully - with the least possible number of casualties. But that requires us to lay our personal selfishness aside for the benefit of the larger community - and there are those who refuse to do that.

[devilsoap]

And that's all fine and well, except things are getting worse. Period. This isn't speculation, or mind control, or the government trying to take away your rights. This is life or DEATH. There's a new more contagious version of COVID-19 in the UK and now the US. In the Los Angeles area 1 in 5 people is thought to be infected. This is an huge increase from before the holidays.

 

I agree with you but just a point of clarity for your facts. The 1 in 5 people is of people getting tested, not the population in LA County at large.

[Mustang]

I don't see how you can get in the car and drive with this logic. Heck, you can hurt someone if you get on a bike or skateboard.

False equivalentcy and poor logic.

[+ Axiom2001]

My niece is a professional, certified masseuse. Donna Karan is one of her principal clients. To date, she has not been able to give massages due to the coronavirus. That's my response to the thread. ...hands-off is the name of the game until the populace has received the vaccine.

[Capitano]

My niece is a professional, certified masseuse. Donna Karan is one of her principal clients. To date, she has not been able to give massages due to the coronavirus. That's my response to the thread. ...hands-off is the name of the game until the populace has received the vaccine.

 

Given the probabilities, I'd rather get COVID than the vaccine, seriously. But I am definitely going to follow all sensible measures to avoid it. As far as Sweden, they are doing better than many similar European countries that killed their economies and still didn't accomplish anything, and comparisons with the next door Denmark are interesting. Yes, the Danes were able to slow it down initially but are now catching up with the death toll whereas Sweden is pretty much done with this cycle.

Sweden Coronavirus: 469,748 Cases and 8,985 Deaths - Worldometer (worldometers.info)

Denmark Coronavirus: 174,995 Cases and 1,450 Deaths - Worldometer (worldometers.info)

 

Policy questions are best analyzed without emotions. Yes, it's a dangerous virus but there is no need for hysteria and lockdowns. As Raoult says, locking up healthy people is insane and has never been done in human history until now. And empirical data are clear, lockdowns and masks don't help anyway:

Ivor Cummins - YouTube