DWnyc

With due respect how on earth do you know for a fact that “no one” ever feels slighted? How do you know you are not spoken of in a way that may surprise you behind your back? Yours truly, Fellow New Yorker

I’ve been in more than one situation where I’ve done a favor for someone, eg lent or even given money, or helped them in kind, eg place to stay for a while or got them a job or internship. And never with the expectation of favors or even a relationship in return (though sometimes I may have had a crush). Sometimes explicitly, and sometimes more subtly including where I mostly missed obvious signals, I was offered an opportunity to be intimate in return. Does that count? Getting emotionally messed up from the first and only time I acted on it I made it a rule never to go down that route again.

I mostly agree but have difficulty with this last point. Terms like “prevailing price” and “below market” imply these metrics exist and are known to the two parties in the negotiation. I don’t think that’s the case in the provider industry. I’m not comparing the premium guys whether delusional porn stars or actual quality experienced professionals with the tweaked guys hovering outside the Greyhound Terminal. Nor am I comparing those clients who show as much grace and respect as they can muster with those who negotiate rudely on everything as a knee jerk response to any opening offer or stated price. But as we head into a potential global recession, I expect to see more negotiating in every industry including this one, and if the preference is really less volume and maintaining quoted prices wherever they come from, I’d say fine, but only if the end profit for providers was the same (or more). Im just not sure it always is.

We can respectfully disagree. I negotiate contracts also. Mostly with service providers, ranging from huge multinationals where my small firm doesn’t move the needle, to sole practioners, who have put their life and soul into building their business and where acquiring and maintaining our account can be critical. As a cofounder of my firm I understand the idea of valuing one’s worth and not being bullied by those writing the checks, but I also can’t leave money on the table beyond a point. I provide the smaller and sole practioners much more grace on this but I also have fiduciary obligations. I have heard more times than I can recall from small or sole practioners in my day job, and providers in the world we are discussing here, something on the lines of “rather than walking away when my first offer didn’t work, I just wish you had spoken to me and I’m sure we could have come to an arrangement”. That of course implies I’m reasonable and fair and wouldn’t push for a negotiation that would be impossible or uncomfortable. But it does mean that if the initial terms don’t work for me, and I walk away for fear of being “disrespectful” or “tacky” I may be depriving these guys the chance to earn their living, and that seems to me to be a crime in itself. If it still doesn’t work for them or me even after respectful conversations where they are equal participants, they totally have the right to walk away just as I do. If they or I feel that even having such a conversation is futile, or a waste of time and resources, we shouldn’t have it. I’ll reiterate that I personally have never initiated a negotiation with a provider, and I always tip unless I feel there is a specific reason not to, and I’d rather hire less than push for arrangements where a provider feels resentment. Im just surprised that the discussion has moved to the point where even accepting a provider’s invitation to revisit price is somehow offensive.

For the record please note my valiant efforts not to chime in with a smart comment here … 😉

One can aim for a price based on one’s costs and profit target. But what one will actually receive is not the same thing, and if that’s lower, those cost inputs or the profit target need revisiting. And per @dbar123‘s framing, if 19 out of 20 say prices are too high we should also remember there is no collusion between these folks providing feedback - there simply isn’t the means or desire.

Same issue I believe with using, buying and selling certain other things on those sites. A lot of people post very obviously … only a few seem to get caught but those that do are pretty much done on there unless they get new phone numbers and devices.

But if the provider himself is inviting you to negotiate by not ending the conversation, it can’t be binding, and for the same reason as you state, why deprive him of a shot at improving his economics? Walking away leaving his respect and worth (apparently) unchallenged but zero dollars in his pocket may not be what the provider actually wants particularly if he’s the one initiating the negotiation. And of course if the provider does prefer zero dollars for whatever reason, that’s totally his prerogative.

Why do you “know” it’s “not right” and “you shouldn’t”? As @nate_sf says you don’t have to do this even if you think everyone else is. And yoU don’t need to feel like “trash” for not having experienced it. Having said that, maybe exploring your reasons for thinking it’s not right and that you shouldn’t is a a necessary step before you engage with a provider on this, to avoid a wasted session or something that ends up being unpleasant for you.

Exactly. Once we veer away from from looking at this through the lens of capitalism, market rates, sales pitches that don’t yield a 100% success rate … and start using words like “disrespect” and “insulting” …we need to think about what’s hugely insulting and disrespectful to clients as well.

If you explain this to a provider when inquiring about an appointment and they’re willing to take you on, I think they can be helpful. Some may think you’re role playing and trying to act innocent / “first time fantasy” etc but so what (unless they assume part of your fantasy is going from zero to a hundred in a few mins, the only thing I’d advise you to be wary of). So I’d advise you to go with someone you like based on their profile and take it from there. Ask lots of questions in the session, in a way that might be uncomfortable in a non provider environment. Its actually a good way to cross some thresholds without the pressure of “real people” and their reactions. You may even want to try bottoming in a safe environment to test your assumption. Good luck.

I don’t know if RM has a policy against putting Twitter ids on … because I see a lot of codewords and formatting to put them in a provider’s profile. When it’s there if I have any interest in the provider I like checking their Twitter pages out (though don’t interact with them there) as there are usually a lot of videos, and more of a sense of who these folks are.

This topic comes up frequently on this forum. I’m one of the few who consistently argues that there is a racism problem and specifically when it comes to provider / client interaction, usually before some others get uncomfortable if not already denying it. I can be an optimist on this if I choose, and that’s partly idealism but also based on experience. I, however, am not denying you your views or experience.

Fast forward from the “should providers be able to request a photo” discussion and I’ve had at least two request a video call prior to meeting

I know at least one provider who claims he gets the highest share of his clients from Twitter

The chairman is likely playing golf while trusting the CEO with billions of dollars … I think the glass ceiling has been shattered enough in that example

Exactly …

@Jamie21 I was ready to sign up until you brought up the Dolly - Whitney thing. No way after that …

The market will determine, at the end of the day, where a man’s pricing ends up. But … That pricing does not determine a man’s value or worth.

Just a friendly warning to the community at large

Careful though as that can often be a way of them increasing the billed time, which is fine if you’re ok with that. I’ve had both … provider saying “I’m having so much fun let’s keep going” when time is up and if I say “I don’t want to pay for more time” a reply something like “are you kidding, this is hot …” etc (would I always cover with tip for extra time, to be clear) I’ve also gone over without realizing and the provider then saying “this is my job, you know my hourly rate and you didn’t stop …” and so I’ll settle and disappear (with no repeat) before it gets to the awkward conversation of “what, did you think I was spending time with you because I was enjoying it??!” I typically pay attention to time even if provider doesn’t (the good ones will of course) … and have also had providers react in both directions … “don’t worry about time, it’s totally cool …” as well as “yeah you’re right, we should wind down … unless you want to extend and here’s what that means …”. Funniest one for me was when I noticed time was up, the provider said “no let’s keep going … this is hot … “ etc and I assume he meant it’s part of the agreed session … but a few seconds later he added “you got cash for the extra time, right?” I pushed him away and said, let’s stop please, and said I had another appointment to deflect a little. I got up and started getting dressed, and he launched into a tirade of “you know how frustrating that is, I’m so close, so annoying, you’re so selfish … “ etc. BFE without asking for it

There’s a reality of numbers … There's a reason why there’s a “model modify” stereotype for some as well … too few examples of interaction for most and if they are of similar nature, it gets grossed up in the population as well

I suspect both

I have seen it frequently … but you’re talking about a demographic too small in number to move perceptions

I think there’s another aspect here: There’s stigma and fear of exposure for many so the awkwardness or problem would have to be extreme for some to raise a fuss. And the higher net worth a client has, the loss in value from provider misbehavior feels like less of a problem. Easier to “let it go”.