DWnyc

To reiterate what has been said many times before, so not an original thought: Just don’t rely on anyone (provider, client, hookup, partner etc) telling you they’re on PREP or that they have a health status that influences your behavior. People don’t often know their actual status, or they may be lying for whatever reason etc and you have to take responsibility for your own health, on the metrics important to you. And there’s that heat of the moment thing as well …

You may not understand it, but it happens and that’s the main point of this discussion: To acknowledge that it happens. But not just for race. Unregulated markets mean both the best and worst of capitalist traits, and some from those who consider themselves stronger will inevitably bully those they consider to be weaker. It’s been the same since caveman days. There’s a flip side to this, worthy of another thread … about when providers bully clients and ask for more than what was agreed to, and do they play that game with some more than others. The power dynamic between a fit young attractive provider and an aging closeted unfit weaker client of any race (but some races may be more vulnerable) isn’t difficult to imagine. Can you imagine bad behavior from regular providers you like and trust? No, neither can I. Do you like and trust every provider you’ve ever met …?

Some non US based sites do list pricing, but usually I think it’s just from asking. One of the issues earlier in the thread was the degree to which some providers are negotiated down based on factors such as race (but could also include age etc). So published / upfront rates are not the only indicator for this discussion, it’s also a question of where one ends up after the back and forth. Not to mention things like tipping, paying for extra time etc where there may be differences in how the average client treats the average provider all else being equal.

A provider’s personal preferences aside, I think it’s not just a matter of a few hundred dollars, but their calculation of their entire livelihood, given prevailing client norms.

My anecdotal experience is that culturally (on the US east coast at least) things have shifted from bare being a hushed secret ask, to the norm. This applies to both the provider scene and hookup culture in general. Safe now seems something you have to request when making an appointment, bare being the assumed preference. Won’t be apparent if people are filtering for “safe only” to begin with.

I’ve seen the opposite actually (higher price with condoms as “it’s much harder to perform”) though not that much of a markup. I’ve also seen more than one provider refuse to meet at all if that was a requirement.

My unscientific non exhaustive anecdotal observations in the NY market are different (on Latinos being the most expensive) but we may not be looking at the same market segments or be comparing apples to apples.

I once had a provider who himself finished a little early in the session. I don’t need or even want providers to finish and I always assumed they preferred it that way (ie save themselves for the next client). He then said he was no good after that, and things became very awkward … he suggested we end and he’d make up the time (prepaid) in a future booking. It was early in my hiring days and I didn’t know better and reassured him it was ok, I was actually flattered, it was hot watching him get excited etc … I guess I was the one giving him the BFE …

You’re giving too much credit to some people. And those movements for all the good they may have done have also triggered counter movements on a mass scale too. “All lives matter” for instance.

(Btw I’m super impressed you found a Pashtun) It’s a combo of factors;, race isnt the only one but it could be significant, all else being equal. I recall an obnoxious post on Grindr on the lines of “if you’re above 40 or ethnic you better be hot or have a big dick”.

Serious question. If you have rejected on race, why is it hurtful to face the same treatment? I understand being rejected is never fun, but aren’t you being played by your own rules?

And I’ll let you have the last word even with your consistent framing of this a certain way. Take a look at some of the reactions above and how such conversations go generally, with eye rolls, “I don’t experience it so it can’t happen”, “i‘m not that way so it can’t be so”, “that’s the way it is, deal with it” etc ., and halting some discussions as “no longer on topic” (aka “uncomfortable”) all while other discussions in parallel veer off on every tangent imaginable. Some of this is the silence of the good people, but some of it more sinister. I assume you care about this issue a lot based on your comments, but focusing on our disagreements doesn’t actually serve the cause given all that’s around us if we are (as I assume) on the same side on the main issues.

As I think back to some experiences. I think some of this is situation specific. In one case a growing friendship made it harder for me to keep making bookings; the provider was more open about how he hated aspects of his work and it felt almost abusive to make him perform for my pleasure (even though he benefited from payment). In another case I felt obligated to book more regularly than i would have for my new friend, particularly since he was struggling financially. But the sessions became increasingly stressful for both of us as neither of us were our normal social selves during them, so it felt inauthentic with a friend. Our last few bookings had me essentially giving him fees like a gift with no provider work, until he himself told me to stop.

Who’s minimizing here? But I don’t think is possible or healthy to reduce everything to “is this person x-ist” (racist, ageist, sizeist if such a word exists and so on) and then make existential judgements on them. The reality is often far more nuanced, and I doubt there is a single one of us who escapes having prejudice (ie pre judging) of some sort or views that others might find offensive. These things vary across geography, generation, time etc as well. And also differ in importance to some, so I might be most offended by age discrimination, you by race and so forth. Coming back to the OP, our collective views influence what the market can support, and where such prejudice exists it does affect pricing. We’ve discussed that elsewhere in the forum when providers have wondered why their rates can’t be higher or why they can’t have stricter terms with clients. So yes there are obviously negative consequences to all this. Sounds like you and I differ on how we change the world on these matters, but that’s ok ... I agree the world should change, and that’s more than you’ll get from some others.

Well you don’t know what I may or may not have said in the entire conversations. And Im reminded every Thanksgiving and college reunion that if I broke off ties with everyone I disagreed with I wouldn’t have anyone in my life. Apart from all you close friends on this forum 😊

To be fair, they may genuinely feel this, and it doesn’t necessarily make them racist. At worst I’d say they could be naive or tone deaf in not reading the room or understanding how this may come across. And perhaps forgetting the entitlement / privilege that allows them to express this. My bigger issue is with those who deny the existence of problems they haven’t experienced, meaning they lack empathy or willingness to consider testimony on things that may be unfamiliar or uncomfortable. Like someone middle class wondering out loud why inflation is a problem for so many millions on products such as milk and eggs. Or any man opining on what it’s like to be a woman (in the workplace … walking alone at night … etc).

To be fair to us all in America, I can’t think of a single country I’m aware of that doesn’t have deep faultlines on all sorts of issues once you scratch the surface. We also have very positive national traits of openness and allowing self criticism, so we talk about all this a lot more. Easy to fall into a trap of seeing ourselves as doomed or worse than elsewhere, but I don’t think that’s the case.

I’m just remembering an anecdote from someone I met socially who was a provider, and Asian American. He said his “provider profile” was that he was a visitor (note, not an immigrant) from Thailand, with an accent. That got him more clients, repeats, higher rates etc than being what he was Ie a kid from california who happened to be of Asian descent.

Sure, but no one is having an intellectual argument citing references with their gut when making choices based on what has been internalized over years … maybe ones whole life.

That’s great, anecdotally. Societal trends dictate expectations, however. And learned behavior, to conform or just get through each day often gravitates to those. Change, leadership, innovation … in all aspects of our world, usually come from those who, as you put it, escape the norm. So here’s to more of you!

We have huge differences in systemic approach in US vs some of these other countries. We have self segregation through where we live and therefore who we mix with at school, sports clubs etc and by the time were old enough to go to college or work and make our own decisions some of this becomes deeply entrenched. And to be clear it’s not just whites vs everyone else. If you’re Asian and have never known someone African American socially … or if you’re East Indian vs Latinos etc (having a maid or gardener doesn’t count) it’s not surprising that you have “personal preference” biased against the unfamiliar, whether it’s on music, food, or sexual attraction. The personal preference issue is very complicated and can’t be solved through legislation or overnight but there are clearly societal causes since there are such significant differences by geography / country in mixed race interaction. But I’d settle for people just being nicer to each other as they expressed that preference.

In a business that’s so unregulated and private it’s only natural that the worst of human behavior can come out. Who’s going to file a complaint? Or even gather data to address disbelief / denial of trends? Add to that the issue of what we call “personal preference” to allow validation as we discuss this all. Then add further to that entitlement (eg through price differentials) and it’s inevitable these dynamics will exist. @Jamie21 From what I know of the UK it doesn’t surprise me race is less of a factor (I think Toronto and Montreal are similar) and there’s a lot of history and baggage in the US on this issue. And within the US there’s probably difference in geography. One observation I’ve had when traveling is a lot more mixed race couples (especially black and white) of all orientations in Europe and Canada than in the US. Or look at the lines outside nightclubs (again, gay or straight) in eg London vs Chicago and you’ll see a lot more segregation (even if through personal choice).

I heard from more than one white friend (clients) who have said something on the lines of, given stereotypes of higher rates of crime (violence, drug use etc) among African Americans, they will avoid that demographic in providers since such meetings are already fraught with risks.

I’ve heard that there is an effective tier just as there may be based on age and some other factors. And that clients are more likely to haggle with providers or color, both before and after making an appointment. I’ve also heard from more than one provider of color that they feel clients can be more demanding / punitive / rude when things don’t go as planned eg they are held more accountable on being late, not being able to perform, pics not regarded as accurate etc. And that clients are more likely to be flakey / cancel at last minute etc. with them. Difficult to verify but I would say the perception is definitely there.

Totally fine 😊