DWnyc

Isn’t “tea” also one of the classes word for a meal as a whole?

Don’t assume though that those having more conversations are having more fun. In the shallow fickle jarring world of online apps that also means more blocks, ghosting, rudeness when things don’t go someone’s way etc. If this issue is promoting you to explore hiring more, just have your antenna up for this very issue. I’ve heard from PoC friends that every so often they feel bullied by providers on this issue, probably because they reveal their vulnerability on the subject too much. Most providers are great, and you won’t have to worry about this, but pay attention to the discussions on here on eg asking for photos, negotiating on price, top service vs being rushed out the door etc and how that can differ for some.

Every so often I’ll see on the online apps someone I’m chatting with suddenly switch to “ok this is what it will cost you” mode. Typically I block or stop engaging at that point (because I’m irritated by the bait and switch). Had a bizarre experience the other day when after exchanging pics, discussing what might occur, where we were located etc, he suddenly pulled the $ card. I was feeling a bit cheeky, and I replied, “I was about to say the same thing to you!”. Risky as it could have gotten me thrown off I guess. The other party went quiet … but then came back a few mins later with “how much? I’m so horny, I’ll pay you …”. . Cop? Or horny dude who went from thinking he could monetize his libido to the other extreme?

“He got me sloshed” … also has some worrying implications.

We clearly have a fundamental difference in how we view the world and that’s ok, and I’ll likely stop engaging on this since we’re going around in circles talking past each other. Personally I don’t negotiate in this business, and I’ve even gone as far as to pay extra when asked by providers for all sorts of nonsense after a price has been fixed. But I don’t think those who try are doing anything unethical / immoral etc / and the provider has every right to shut down a negotiation conversation at any point in the discussion (including right at the start) so where’s the harm to anyone here? I’ll add at likely my last comment in this thread: I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve had an exchange with a provider on asking their rate, receiving an answer, I thank them and say sorry not for me and assume that’s the end of the conversation, and then they come back volunteering a counteroffer I never asked for. That’s totally cool, but I don’t accept that they only have the right to discuss price and clients don’t.

And I would say what you did here was worse than negotiating for £20 reduction (even if unintentional) and what the provider did was effectively a negotiation (to him it’s the same thing, £20 less than his published price) and he wouldn’t have done that if it was not feasible, showing you a degree of flexibility. Im not suggesting you then need to bargain him down in the future based on this, and maybe you (like me) in this situation would send him the balance later or add to a subsequent booking. Just saying nothing is fixed. This framework of escorting is unique, sole providers have special price fixing privilege (in the market as a whole) etc doesn’t make sense to me when viewing through a market / business lens. Yes they can set their own prices, and yes clients can walk away if they can’t or won’t pay the published price, but I don’t understand what is so offensive about proposing an alternative arrangement that the provider has no obligation to accept or even consider, that may result in some (as opposed to zero) revenue from a booking that is actually made (vs not made).

There are several standards in negotiation theory, classes, books etc One is you should always be negotiating whether for a hot dog or a multimillion dollar contract. As you need to always be on alert to see where there may be flexibility so you need this trait internalized. Another is, don’t assume things aren’t negotiable as almost everything is. I’ve paid “not published” prices for things at my corner shop (deli) many times 😊 It doesn’t make me an ass, since I’m not imposing the paid price and it’s with mutual ageeement which there wouldn’t be if it caused pain for either party. Im not bargaining every time I buy a can of Coke, but if I’m buying out his entire supply of coke for a dinner party (which I’ve done) there may be a conversation (and it’s rare he’s said “sorry I can’t do that”). The owner gets my loyalty and maybe that makes him agreeable to sensible proposals since there are 5 other identical stores within walking distance of my residence.

Yes, would allow those who don’t want to negotiate (and I actually fall into that category myself) to follow that pricing but I think those wanting to negotiate would still try. And I think many of those would be successful.

Wait … you discuss your hobby with your coworker? 🥳

Partly because of successive rounds of layoffs in prior years And the economy aside that’s partly because of other business models (eg online, outsourcing) decimating theirs while they stubbornly ignored market trends and set their prices and made business models because they thought they could. Market trends …ah yes, that factor in this topic discussion that several seem to ignore while growling at those referring to it for the escorting industry and pricing,

They can’t, legally, in the US And it’s not uncommon for premium products (using your framework) to be marketed as “ask for further details …” both as discussing $ around such products can be seen as distasteful and precisely because there is no set price.

You’re comparing an oligopoly led by a few multibillion dollar companies with individual escorts?

I disagree that it doesn’t exist in every environment, and again “haggling” is the wrong word - it’s negotiating. You’ve not said anything to back up your statement other than said it’s your opinion, which you’re entitled to, but that alone doesn’t make the point. What makes escorting stand out?

Isn’t the point of the industry we are discussing to make sex as accessible as veg or fruit in the market? I simply do not understand the logic of “it’s not on in escorting”. We live in a commercial world where the price of delivering babies and burying the dead and every aspect of human existence in between has a price determined by negotiation. What makes escorting different?

Agreed but there is still the issue of if the provider is accurately pricing their time relative to what the market will tolerate. Some client negotiation may be knee jerk, but some of it could also be either a gut feeling or actual knowledge that pricing is out of whack with the market. Providers have more ability to organize than clients in this industry and even that doesn’t typically happen, so it’s not like a David/Goliath confrontation.

Many of these examples sound like symptoms of extreme drug use (eg paranoia, unstable moods, erratic communication etc). I’ve had several experiences leaving me scared for my own safety beyond simple awkwardness (eg provider suddenly accusing me of being a plant from the government and starting to go through my clothes trying to find ID, or spraying me with a sanitizing aerosol can because he was worried about COVID) and usually these came out of nowhere after perfectly normal starts. On the issue of overly talkative providers I’ve often wondered if the profession makes one more prone to loneliness, through being solitary and stigmatized, without industry cameraderie or being able to talk about such a huge part of one’s life socially.

Check out intermittent fasting. Not for everyone and requires a huge amount of personal discipline (especially in social settings) and unlearning generations of food lessons some of which are referenced above (eg large breakfast vs no breakfast etc). Depending on one’s personal situation and comorbidities it can help for weight loss and A1C / insulin regulation. Used to be considered a fad but now has a growing body of medical research behind it.

And 50% of my day job is negotiating with my company’s service providers. My compensation and continued employment is tied to how successful I am doing that. My negotiating counterparty’s are also, I presume.

If there is any scenario that you have experienced or are aware of where negotiations (the word “haggling” inserts unnecessary bias) result in a lower price accepted by a provider, and if there was perfect information and everyone knew about it, one would expect more negotiation across comparable offerings. It would be irrational behavior for this not to be the case in a capitalist market. Can’t get more unregulated and capitalist than the industry we’re discussing here. It’s not necessarily accurate to characterize negotiation time (for providers) as uncompensated. That’s part of the “marketing and biz dev” time they have to put in to generate the actual dollars that come in (along with eg responding to client queries and changing the bedsheets after a client visit during hours that are not directly paid for). I assume the rate that I agree to pay a provider includes a pro rated allocation for those types of items.

If a provider can’t or won’t give me their usual service and leave me unsatisfied because of that, I’d rather not waste my money on them and better to clear that up before an appointment is made. I’d just they rather state their criteria in their profiles. But of course they know that will make them look like a holes and they would lose business from a much broader segment than they are singling out. If they require photos for their security or any other issues, let them state that too and apply it universally. And see where it gets them in terms of inbound inquiries.

Let’s add the other factor even though this is uncomfortable for some to address: provider prejudice (“preference”) based on race, age, weight etc. One giveaway on if motives are innocent (eg security) vs something less pleasant is: when is the picture requested? Is it after everything has been agreed including price and time and just an admin detaiL? Or is it prior to deciding price or even if the appointment will happen at all? The client is hiring based primarily on appearance so will typically want to see what the provider looks like. Does the provider need to know what the client looks like in order to provide service? we have seen divergent views whenever this topic has come up before. Every provider can do as they wish, but if it’s a business (rather than monetizing a hookup that could happen anyway) and providers want professional respect, they should not discriminate so not require a photo, which I suspect is behind 90%+ of requests. Thankfully, the vast majority of providers don’t have this requirement (which reiterates that even the nonoffensive drivers aren’t felt by the industry as a whole).

And part of the issue will always be what rate to providers end up receiving regardless of their official rates. Even if not published they can be quoted when you make an inquiry. I can quote you $300/hour but if you haggle with me more than you would with others, and if I’m more keen to get a booking even at lower price as my deal flow is lower than it might be all other things being equal, I might settle for $250 or $200. I’m not going to broadcast that so my published rate / initial quote will still be $300. And a client may still be more likely to cancel without telling me etc because of the reasons we are discussing, so effectively my rate could become zero, While my peer might still end up getting $300 with no pushback or be bargained down to $270. And the outside world can say “they’re both quoting $300, there’s no difference, where’s the problem?” Not saying this is the norm but that’s part of the potential dynamic we’re discussing here including addressing those who don’t / can’t accept that these situations occur.

For the problems to go away, society has to change. That happens, but it takes generations … we think less in America now about who might secretly be a Catholic like we once used to, for instance. Legislation can help reduce the problems by setting a standard of expected behavior, and would provide a path for recourse. Would also allow better data gathering and allow for more transparency on pricing. But the problems won’t disappear any time soon. I can’t see even in a legalized environment many clients or providers being willing to go on the record given the stigma associated with this hobby.

Ok … but that’s the point of the discussion …to ask if it happens as a general trend, starting from the premise that it shouldn’t happen. Our individual moral compasses and track record are not up for scrutiny here.

To reiterate what has been said many times before, so not an original thought: Just don’t rely on anyone (provider, client, hookup, partner etc) telling you they’re on PREP or that they have a health status that influences your behavior. People don’t often know their actual status, or they may be lying for whatever reason etc and you have to take responsibility for your own health, on the metrics important to you. And there’s that heat of the moment thing as well …