DWnyc

15 minutes ago, ICTJOCK said:

 

Regarding the latter comment above,   I wouldn't ever talk to my office about this situation.

Ok but that was a key part of the OP.

The blackmailing escort is threatening to go the OP’s office and has demonstrated he has contact details. 

So my response was to the comments about standing up to the blackmailer, going to the police etc  - and how it’s easy to say this but can be extremely difficult in reality (which is why blackmail sometimes works)

On 10/11/2023 at 7:13 AM, ICTJOCK said:

Well let me say,  I don't do well with negative drama and certainly someone who is threatening me.    I would probably be the first to let the dude know that I'm not subject to extortion or threats for money.     But I'm not you or don't know your situation.

I do think this kind of experience  should be discussed.   There are always two sides to a disagreement,  but providing facts,   like a written conversation)  is helpful in proving your point.    I'd certainly go to the police before I'd ever "cave"  to any sort of blackmail.    I just think it is unfortunate that these kinds of experiences happen.

Easier said than done.

if the OP is in the US or a jurisdiction where this is illegal going to the police opens trouble for him before even getting to the complaint. 

And I can’t think of many situations where regardless of the law a client at the receiving end of a blackmail threat comes out well at work if his office is told “So here’s the deal, i visited a provider …”

On 10/11/2023 at 3:41 AM, Jarrod_Uncut said:

But even the medium markets like Kansas City are starting to get overcrowded, yet there’s nobody paying shit. They’re all on these hookup apps talking about how much they don’t pay for sex.

It’s like…sad to me that some people actually have to write that in their profile. If they have to write that, they should be paying for sex, since they brought it up first ☝️ 

Or maybe they’re just annoyed by providers lurking on sites that have clear guidelines on that, who pull a bait and switch and may make them feel like they’ve been lied to, manipulated, their time wasted etc.

Think of it like the equivalent of people you think could be clients hitting you up, going back and forth on your offering and then saying “surprise! I’m going to treat you like an unpaid hookup post” 

And to preempt - and also think of it like - if you reply that many timewasters do actually treat you exactly like that … the response is “if you have to keep saying that maybe you should be just posting on hookup sites for free interaction”

2 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

The only challenge to that is that in most free markets all the players have good information on price and product. Because in the US the product is largely illegal that does mean the market can’t operate as efficiently as it might otherwise do. For example rates aren’t freely visible, nor is the product. This gives some opportunity for the price to be manipulated. 

There’s another side to this. You can usually start talking rates with someone within 3-4 texts and that can take as little as a minute. I know you run a very professional operation in a different legal system but even if it was all clear in the US I think there would be some ambiguity and room for flexibility that was market (not secrecy) driven

Word does get around fast … if know people who for instance keep tabs on which providers are less or more friendly to something relevant to them (eg age, body type, race etc) and you won’t find that on anyone’s own advertisement for themselves. 

@Jarrod_Uncut I think you will find this hobby is the freest market you will ever experience and my guess is you will face similar if not greater frustration in a perceived mismatch on earnings and your value elsewhere.

Remember, the market measures supply and demand, but not your self worth. Don’t confuse the two - no one should on their earnings. The market can, however, reward innovation, being proactive and responsive to market intel, and having the self awareness to leverage what one is working with. That all starts with you - no one here has the ability to fix the market either for or against you. 

21 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

Demand and supply. Nothing to do with what you think you’re worth or need. The market decides the rate. You and your clients decide whether or not you’re participating in that market. Nothing else is relevant. 

Exactly. Applies for any business or product in a free market.

6 hours ago, Hungbig9 said:

Sorry, but there’s a whole lot more to it than that; particularly in the porn and escorting industry.
 

OF has created a surplus of availability to porn and sex, so why does there never seem to be a saturation point? Lots of reasons, but primarily because gay culture engages in an endless want and consumption of ‘new and pretty’ that creates a turnstyle effect of performers; it’s never enough, and will never be enough. Which means supply and demand goes out the window.

When it comes to escorts, some of which now pull from the same pool of OF performers, they are making more money there now than ever before. They think they’re celebrities, and their worth is grossly overvalued. It’s why you see random people land on these sites starting with ‘$500’ without a single review. They speak to their OF friends, they feel they’re in the same league, and feel they can charge a similar price.

The trend will continue, despite supply being ever increasing and more available, with hotter guys and more options, until OF gets a reality check.

Shelf life for this space is likely even less than for regular providers. 

And if we’re considering the influence of this on hobby prices, consider that many providers can’t or don’t want to diversify into OF type platforms. So prices and differentiation has downward pressure there as well.

1 hour ago, viewing ownly said:

Escort and masseur donations are higher BECAUSE people's wages are higher. I very much disagree with the reason rates go lower are due to someone's age for demand. It is obvious to any provider, regardless of age, if you take care of your body and look more appealing, your level of clients will increase. Plus, and this is wonderful news to report, the younger generation has really come to drop the "he's too old for me" stereotype. I feel the popularity of older / younger sex in porn has a great deal to do with that.

If I were 25 (and I very much am not), why would I want to hire a guy my age asking for 2 large who looks great, but is likely cocky and unpleasant, when I could see a guy twice his age who looks equally as fit who is about 50 less and hour, and almost certainly a more enjoyable experience?

But then why is the older guy in your example, all other things being equal or better, per your framing,  $50 cheaper? That’s the market reflecting his value to the customer base, which includes young but also old(er).

And newsflash, the age of “daddy” as self-described in online profiles is coming down alarmingly where even those in their early 30s talk of themselves that way (probably as they seek those in their late teens). I think I would be a grandfather by those definitions. 

And not sure the average 25 year old hiring is representative - depending on the data points you’re referencing. Who at that age can hire regularly? Maybe a cheaper option helps 🥹

On 9/24/2023 at 10:22 PM, BenjaminNicholas said:

I'm gonna put this out there, but have you ever considered that clients treat you worse because you're a provider of color?

Can of worms conversation, I know.

But...  Let's be real.

I feel like minorities in this industry get the shit end of the stick a lot of times.

Thanks for raising this - I’m sure this is a contributing factor, and as uncomfortable as the topic is (including for many on this forum) it needs to be out there. 

Based on Jarrod’s own testimony I think many of us can have theories (which may or may not be correct) as to what issues there may be in the problems he brings to this group. I assume race may sometimes be a contributing factor, or make a bad  client act worse than he would otherwise (numerous studies on this issue across all industries) but it’s likely not the only or dominant factor. 

I must say (and I genuinely mean this) I admire @Jarrod_Uncut for a specific reason related to this. Despite having been frustrated by a lot of Jarrods posts (because I do want him to succeed and think he’s often missing the bigger picture and isn’t making use of the collective wisdom here) I’ve been impressed that he has rarely if ever referenced race. Empathy on this sensitive subject is hard to generate as it is, and it’s an easy fallback when no other explanation seems obvious to the recipient of bad behavior (or which he feels is bad), and it’s easy to add to the eye-rolling of one’s audience recipients on the topic with an Ill placed or poorly defended argument. 

Whenever this comes up I wonder if some forget that the hobby is ultimately a business transaction, not some elaborate social ritual where need to question m what is “classy” or not etc 

Surely both sides in a negotiation would seek what is best for them, keeping market realities but also some basic practices for fair play in mind, eg

- not pressuring the other side using any leverage they may have

- not acting unilaterally or at the last minute

- always giving the other side a chance to accept/decline a proposal or to negotiate further

That applies to providers and clients equally - so a provider should never have to justify his right not to leave anything on the table that the market allows him to have (earn)

I can see sensitivity on fees if, for instance, I was employing a family member or friend, or if the work came through a sensitive referral. But surely the client provider relationship we discuss here is free of all that - and either side can walk away without anyone else being involved. 

Capitalism enables the hobby in the first place. Since when did capitalism also include a prohibition on revising terms through mutual agreement or seeking improved options for either or both parties? 

And, if a provider can maintain revenue (or doesn’t mind a revenue hit with the long term in mind) - we can have discussions on devaluing service etc and prices that never change under any circumstances etc but again this is business, not about self-worth. 

19 hours ago, Axiom2001 said:

Today is Saturday, September 23, 2023.  Out of curiosity I came to this thread and found out about "Mr. Number."  Prior to my seeing my last escort, I did some research by sending "Chat" questions, etc. to some of that escorts' previous clients.  Three clients responded which allayed my apprehension.  The escort himself responded back to me and stated that since I've been asking about him, he'd done some research about me and would waive the required deposit.  During all of the years that I've engaged the services of escorts here and abroad, I've NEVER been asked for a deposit.

Well, our time was pleasurable and quite positive.

I wonder if I'm on "Mr. Number."

Sounds like his those leaving reviews reported back. 

And given how reviews typically work you may have been asking people quite close to him … like literally being him himself!

I’m not kidding … at least 2 providers have admitted to me they do this. 

And then the providers who offered free or discounted sessions if I leave a positive review … certainly in my interest to go back and report regarding an enquiry, and maybe get another “commission” 😊

People don’t really compare notes on rates for specific providers that much .. your secret deal with someone can remain a secret and not affect transactions with others

In this business, most people don’t believe providers who say “never!” on flexibility on terms. So it’s not like people assume you’re rock solid on rates at any time.

It’s more important that you remember any specific terms beyond your norm that you have with someone so when speaking with them in the future you know what they think is a track record for reference. If you wrote off extra time / have a holiday discount / lowered 2nd hour rate in a two hour booking etc - you’ll need a reason for not doing that again if so. 

Pretty much every service provider I deal with - lawyers, auditors, management consultants … gardeners and plumbers … all have variable fees that one is privy to thorough asking / repeat business / buying in bulk / being respectful … despite initial posturing. 

15 hours ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

Grindr and company aren’t necessarily the godsend that it APPEARS to be because, they aren’t covering all bases of gay life. And a big part of gay life is being able to sell what you have. I mean, it’s no secret. Big cities like San Francisco and New York are both cities with tons of free and paid sex. I can at least say Adam4Adam did the right thing by allowing providers to promote. However, I think there’s an issue with using an app versus a website that doesn’t allow services. 

I wouldn’t categorize providing as as a part specifically of gay life.  There’s a danger of this approach feeding into homophobic stereotypes.

I see the hobby as no different from eg a nanny or a caregiver hired for the those without the time or people in their lives to meet a need, or, how I might go to a restaurant for a meal rather than try to make it myself. And that applies to gay and straight provider-client engagement (in far greater volume) as well.

Also, the online hookup apps are not claiming to cover all aspects of gay life however defined - just a very specific one. If that eats into your business that means the market has become more efficient.

Grindr isn’t a charity - they are not obligated to compensate those they outcompete (and are they really offering anything competing with the true provider model?)

Rentmen surely is in the same vein as Grindr - use emerging technology to make a specific market segment operate more efficiently.  I wouldn’t go on RM to find hookups and I wouldn’t go on Grindr to find providers (though in the movie playing in my head right now I’d be open to novel scenarios … 😝

On 9/22/2023 at 3:28 AM, Jarrod_Uncut said:

And really it’s not even competition, it’s just one platform has capitalized off the disenfranchisement, of the failure to fully Decrim sex work. So while Grindr basically mirrors Uber and Lyfts layout of location based EARNING MONEY: they have essentially pimped out every user of the platform by: earning money themselves, yet enticing users to pay for a premium membership, while prostituting them out for free, essentially. 

 

 

Interesting comparisons but I disagree.

The online hookup apps democratize rather than disenfranchise - means someone in the middle of nowhere can connect with others (nearby or not) without having to go to far / expensive locations.

Decriminalizing the hobby will be great in many ways but I think it will actually put pressure in rates downwards. That may increase likelihood of clients seeking providers but it will also reduce margins for providers.

Invoking competition isn’t a fear tactic - it’s a reality unless the market is controlled.

In the past you’ve cited online hookup sites like Grindr as a competitive threat. If that is preferable to some given price, despite the time it takes, risk of cancelation / ghosting etc perhaps think about whether increasing that price gap helps or not. 

Again, do what you want, and the results should guide you on whether to maintain that change or not 

Also: does the escort actually want a “second chance”? Bad behavior or just not clicking - often stems from not being into it and there’s no point forcing it.

Appreciate @BenjaminNicholas perspective re no second chances from the provider end though I don’t think that’s universally held. Some providers would still take the second chance and the money … whether the first meet was bad because of the client or their own lack of interest which is a recipe for a bad repeat. 

21 hours ago, DrownedBoy said:

I need to see if the client has facial hair. So a headless shot is unlikely to get my interest. 

I might send them an RM text asking for a face pic, but if they need a text, sorry, there's a couple hundred other guys who want my money. 

If you're that fearful of being identified,  neither a client nor provider be.

I would caveat saying on this issue the client and provider risk profiles are different and that guidance is really for providers. If anything clients often seek out providers because they want this aspect of their lives discreet.

Without even contacting a provider, if they list a phone number or have a picture I can likely figure out who there are in real life if I put my mind to it using publicly available tools. And vice versa for a provider with my details.

I don’t need to be contacted proactively. They do. 

As always, do what you want, and good for you if you can get it to work,

Most people here have views on this that are unlikely to change. 

But please remember, if you’re saying a client should understand the cost of a hotel room if you pay comes out of your fees (technically it’s your expense line in general, not just applied against their fees per se) if you shift some or all of that to the client it adds to their fees in the same way. If there are alternatives (eg in a large city like mine) that alone will kill your odds. Maybe with less or no competition in the areas you often describe you have more leverage but you also talk generally about problems getting clients to show up, book etc - that hit rate doesn’t increase typically when you raise effective prices,

The first time can be great - prompting a second time which isn’t.

I feel in this hobby there’s an element of the terming they give on investments - “past performance is no indicator of future returns” 

One more thing. As often discussed here or rather it’s there to see if you read between the lines on some posts - what may be a memorable experience for you (good or bad) may be totally forgotten by the provider given the imbalance in volume of interactions. Make note of fundamental character issues which likely won’t change, but other things may be situation specific.

2 hours ago, Archangel said:

Age: Ask me! 

Future posts on this forum: “potential clients who never have intention of hiring waste my time asking me all these stupid questions …” 😊

The best interactions have mutual respect where everything falls into place from that.   There are underlying faultlines in the provider-client dynamic for some (not all) - and things can escalate quickly whether directly or indirectly.

5 hours ago, Archangel said:

I may have a candid conversation about phone usage the next time. Just because it’s been an issue in the past. I’ve had guys who seem to forget where their phones are when we’re together. And I’ve had guys who seem like their phones are surgically attached to their wrists.

As for “me time” when we’re together, that’s just healthy for any relationship. Escort-client relationship or not. People need a break. I need my nap, damnit! 😂

I will decline the meetup with a guy who says he needs to do work while he’s with me. If you worked at Walmart part time, they wouldn’t allow you to take a call from your Wall Street broker no matter how important it is. I’ve been burnt by that. I would be really hesitant to hire a guy who needs to work while we’re together. I might understand a call or two…but not meetings and so forth that I have to conform my time off around. I’ve lived that with an escort, several times with the same guy, and it wasn’t a terribly fantastic experience. I like to think I could/would be accommodating, but I’d need some pretty good assurances it wouldn’t ruin the time together.

On the subject of moonlighting while on the job …

One memorable proactive marketing message I received from a provider I’d seen a few times and hadn’t reengaged- went something like:

“I’m with a guy for a week - a whole week! That’s how much I’m in demand! But he falls asleep after we play for a good few hours … so if you want a phone or video session I’d be up for that …”

I’ve never engaged more than a couple of hours - and have wondered how people can stand each other for more than that - in the hobby dynamic.

In ”real life” people need breaks from each other even in the most upbeat / passionate scenarios. Otherwise the mood can sour quickly. Or maybe I’m just annoying to be with more than a couple of hours 😊

On 9/14/2023 at 5:02 AM, Simon Suraci said:

I don’t lie about my age. That way clients know exactly what to expect both in terms of maturity, life experience, mindset, and looks. A gen Z mind is pretty different from an older millennial one. I think I look my age, and have no fear or delusions about looking older or clinging to youth as I get older. Aging gracefully is hot. I want to fit the fantasy that a client hires me to fulfill, at whatever age I am when they hire me.

When I state everything accurately and my pics are recent, there’s no problem. The people who want me find me and love my service. I can’t be all things to all people so I’m unapologetically myself. The clients who like me for me hire me and really enjoy the experience. No surprises, no problems.

When clients comment on my age, they say I look at least a few years younger than my chronological age. Better a pleasant surprise than a sore disappointment. Invariably clients say I look better in person than my photos. They also consistently say I have good energy. That’s hard to glean from a photo, especially from profiles with only frowns and grimaces (or face cut off). You can have great energy at any age, and that’s arguably as important if not more so than looking young.

Good for you if you have a sustainable business model relative to your goals with that approach. 

And I like that you take a long term (eg repeat client focused) approach on this issue.

Many providers think (but likely haven’t tested) that lying / claiming to be much younger is better for business. I suspect many clients will continue engage for a session once they meet in person - not necessarily walk out or verbally raise the issue - but not rebook. 

1 hour ago, Archangel said:

I also appreciate in a lot of other cultures from America, and Great Britain to a lesser degree, the question “how are you” is expecting an answer, with details. It’s an actual question. I have adopted that approach in my life. If I don’t care or don’t want to listen to a wellbeing account, I don’t ask. 

Even when the RM default is often “ask me” …? 😊