Straight Friend - What Would You Do?

[actor61]

My best straight friend and I have known each other for nearly 35 years, and have been through a lot together - divorce, financial reversals, the birth of children, the loss of children, life's stuff - and I am very fond of him; in fact, fond enough that I forgive a lot that I wouldn't ordinarily forgive. During our entire friendship, he has always made jokes about my being gay. For a long time, I let them pass, neither acknowledging them nor refuting them, thinking that if I took the high road, he'd get the message but there has hardly been a conversation in which he has not referred somehow to my homosexuality with remarks such as, "You're SO gay," "Only a gay guy would say that," "You got that sore throat from sucking too many dicks," when I've complained of a cold, or "Don't get on your gay horse," when I've become irritated with something. I have told him quite a few times that I don't find those remarks funny but then I'm accused of being over sensitive. I've continued the friendship because he's a very good guy and has been a good friend but I'm on the verge of either telling him off once and for all or even ending the friendship because of a recent incident. We were in a restaurant the other night and a rather effeminate server was waiting on us. After he'd taken our order and walked away, my friend said to me, "My God, he's even gayer than YOU." My friend is Jewish but I have never, ever said, "My God, he's even more Jewish than YOU" in similar circumstances. I never would but now, in my anger, I'm thinking maybe I should so that he'll get the point?

 

I'd love to hear opinions, thoughts, shared experiences and/or good advice.

[+ Charlie]

The things you have reported him saying are the kind of things that he has probably observed that gay friends do say to one another, to affirm their common identity. It could be his way of trying to show the closeness of your friendship. But it is as inappropriate as me using the 'n' word when joking with my African-American friends. No matter how close we are to our diverse friends, there are some identity boundaries that should be respected. Rather than get mad, why not just have a non-judgmental conversation with him about it; ask him why he does it, and if this is his reason, explain to him that you find it offensive rather than an effective way to bond. If he continues to do it after that, then he really is insensitive to your feelings.

[Rudynate]

The things you have reported him saying are the kind of things that he has probably observed that gay friends do say to one another, to affirm their common identity. It could be his way of trying to show the closeness of your friendship. But it is as inappropriate as me using the 'n' word when joking with my African-American friends. No matter how close we are to our diverse friends, there are some identity boundaries that should be respected. Rather than get mad, why not just have a non-judgmental conversation with him about it; ask him why he does it, and if this is his reason, explain to him that you find it offensive rather than an effective way to bond. If he continues to do it after that, then he really is insensitive to your feelings.

 

Exactly. He doesn't understand that we give ourselves permission that he doesn't have. I've heard Jews, talking among themselves, refer to other Jews as "Hebes," and it seemed perfectly OK. Yet, they would be offended if a non-Jew used that same word. You might use that parallel to drive your point home.

[+ azdr0710]

would sure hate to see this good friendship end over an issue like this.....a laid-back chat, as Charlie suggests, seems appropriate.....the "you're just being too sensitive" comment is a very common retort in situations like this and you may want to just say it is, in fact, a sensitive concern: "hey man, yeah, it does sorta bother me...."

 

and the "you're more Jewish than...." comeback may, in fact, be a funny ice-breaker for you to use (if you think it won't bother HIM)..... other good comments will come in this thread.....

[wisconsinguy]

If on nearly all the times the two of you have met, and he has made some sort of gay comment, AND you are offended, it's time. Time to be very serious and say those comments hurt and offend you. If he accuses you of being over sensitive, or something else, AND does it again, it's time again. Time for distance.

Even when gay friends and I are out for dinner, none of these individuals make disparaging remarks about anyone, like a waiter/server/bla,bla,bla. We kid amongst ourselves, about ourselves. We all breath the same level of O2. We all need to respect each other, no matter what are personal choices are. I am fortunate to have friends on both sides of the fence. None of which would want to hurt anyone. WG2

[tyro]

I may have no right to weigh in on this subject, but here goes.

Staying friends with someone out of habit is not a good reason to stay friends.

Staying friends with someone who belittles you, even if he's "joking," is only slightly better than slapping your own face.

This guy criticizes you for being "sensitive" for reacting when he makes homophobic comments? Seriously?

I've never understood the male penchant for cutting friends down. I would have distanced myself from this person LONG ago.

T

[bigvalboy]

I may have no right to weigh in on this subject, but here goes.

Staying friends with someone out of habit is not a good reason to stay friends.

Staying friends with someone who belittles you, even if he's "joking," is only slightly better than slapping your own face.

This guy criticizes you for being "sensitive" for reacting when he makes homophobic comments? Seriously?

I've never understood the male penchant for cutting friends down. I would have distanced myself from this person LONG ago.

T

 

You did good "T"....concise and to the point.

[BaronArtz]

Normally, I would be inclined to say, try to calmly discuss your concerns with him and hope for a change. But this has been going on for 35 years? It will be complicated to convey to him the concept of why you want a change NOW ... But for your own sake, be always honest about your feelings and if it means your relationship with this person needs to change after 35 years, so be it.

 

I am sort of trying to understand your friend's perspective. Is making his crass jokes about gays a way to 'keep you in your place'? Is he concerned that you may ultimately want more from him than just friendship? Maybe it is a defense mechanism from his side. In any event, whatever the circumstances are, you seem stressed and this needs to be resolved. Which is why I suggested to be as honest and as straightforward as possible with him.

[+ purplekow]

"Hey Bob, we are both well aware of the fact that I am gay. If you have any comments to make about it, please make them and then never again okay? I love you but I hate that you feel it necessary to remind me that you know I am gay. Now do you best gay business and lets get down to dinner." Expect the you are being too sensitive retort. "When you grate on something long enough it gets sensitive and for a long time now you have been grating on my last nerve. I would rather have dinner with you but I will not do so if it is not clear to you that I have been bothered by this for years and it is time to stop, no matter what you think of my sensitivities, because that is what friends do."

[+ FreshFluff]

The things you have reported him saying are the kind of things that he has probably observed that gay friends do say to one another, to affirm their common identity. It could be his way of trying to show the closeness of your friendship. But it is as inappropriate as me using the 'n' word when joking with my African-American friends. No matter how close we are to our diverse friends, there are some identity boundaries that should be respected. Rather than get mad, why not just have a non-judgmental conversation with him about it; ask him why he does it, and if this is his reason, explain to him that you find it offensive rather than an effective way to bond. If he continues to do it after that, then he really is insensitive to your feelings.

 

Agreed. He may be bigoted or insensitive, but you will be able to judge that better after you tell him the remarks are inappropriate.

[namchebaz]

enough is enough.

And +1 for Purple Kow and Tyro's comments.

[+ Gar1eth]

The things you have reported him saying are the kind of things that he has probably observed that gay friends do say to one another, to affirm their common identity. It could be his way of trying to show the closeness of your friendship. But it is as inappropriate as me using the 'n' word when joking with my African-American friends. No matter how close we are to our diverse friends, there are some identity boundaries that should be respected. Rather than get mad, why not just have a non-judgmental conversation with him about it; ask him why he does it, and if this is his reason, explain to him that you find it offensive rather than an effective way to bond. If he continues to do it after that, then he really is insensitive to your feelings.

 

Exactly. He doesn't understand that we give ourselves permission that he doesn't have. I've heard Jews, talking among themselves, refer to other Jews as "Hebes," and it seemed perfectly OK. Yet, they would be offended if a non-Jew used that same word. You might use that parallel to drive your point home.

 

I'd be offended if either a straight friend or a gay friend used those expressions with me. And as long as the subject has come up, I'm Jewish. I have never referred to one of my co-religionists as a 'Hebe' and would not let the remark pass by from either a gentile or a fellow Jew.

 

I mean really 'a sore throat from sucking dick'? It sounds very high school or younger than that even. I let an acquaintance -and I posted this-get by with the phrase 'Jew Down' back in November. I probably shouldn't have except the guy is the sweetest guy in the world. I knew he didnt mean to be offensive about it ( he was describing something he did and not me). And I knew it might be years until I saw him again.

 

The problem is going to be how badly are you going to miss him if you cut him from your life. Thirty-five years is a long time. I'm not really extremely close to anyone from that long ago still. I think the only thing you can do is to have a heart to heart-maybe by email or a mutual friend if you can't do it in person. If he still persists after that, you have to make your decision.

 

Gman

[MsGuy]

It's hard to teach a dog not to jump up on you if you've been letting him do it since he was a puppy.

 

If you really have made up your mind you don't want to tolerate this behavior any longer (& that's a bigger 'if' than you may think), then next time he starts up immediately bring the conversation to a halt and tell him to stop it. Don't worry if it's an awkward time or setting, just tell him to stop. Be polite but firm. Don't put it as a request, don't argue about it, don't try to reason with him about it, just make it clear the conversation will be about nothing else but his offensive behavior until he stops. As soon as he stops, reward him with a "Thank you for your consideration" and go on with your date like nothing happened.

 

Repeat as needed and it will be needed for a while. Your friend has to unlearn behavior that's he's been allowed for 3 decades. Your friend has to learn that insulting you results in a disagreeable experience. He may well become irritated with you, even angry; he will almost certainly try to bulldoze you into backing up. Don't. Even when you think he's finally given it up, he will likely try slipping it into your relationship. Don't let him backslide. Eventually he will either treat you with respect or he will avoid your company. His choice.

 

What other alternatives do you have? You've tried requesting, you've tried reasoning, you've tried explaining and he's basically told you to stuff it and man up. Try behavior conditioning. It might work.

 

Or you could just 'man up' to his lack of respect. Your choice.

[+ deej]

It's hard to teach a dog not to jump up on you if you've been letting him do it since he was a puppy.

 

If you really have made up your mind you don't want to tolerate this behavior any longer (& that's a bigger 'if' than you may think), then next time he starts up immediately bring the conversation to a halt and tell him to stop it. Don't worry if it's an awkward time or setting, just tell him to stop. Be polite but firm. Don't put it as a request, don't argue about it, don't try to reason with him about it, just make it clear the conversation will be about nothing else but his offensive behavior until he stops. As soon as he stops, reward him with a "Thank you for your consideration" and go on with your date like nothing happened.

 

Repeat as needed and it will be needed for a while. Your friend has to unlearn behavior that's he's been allowed for 3 decades. Your friend has to learn that insulting you results in a disagreeable experience. He may well become irritated with you, even angry; he will almost certainly try to bulldoze you into backing up. Don't. Even when you think he's finally given it up, he will likely try slipping it into your relationship. Don't let him backslide. Eventually he will either treat you with respect or he will avoid your company. His choice.

 

What other alternatives do you have? You've tried requesting, you've tried reasoning, you've tried explaining and he's basically told you to stuff it and man up. Try behavior conditioning. It might work.

 

Or you could just 'man up' to his lack of respect. Your choice.

 

+1

[Decatur Guy]

I know this sounds a little off-the-wall, but hear me out. How physical do you get with this guy? I don't mean sex, either. Where I'm going: Can you playfully but forcefully punch him in the shoulder next time and say: "Say that again and next time it will really hurt."

 

I don't mean to start a fist fight with your buddy. I'm talking about a playful punch in the shoulder that has enough English to carry a message. Now don't do this if you think you'd get in a brawl ....

[+ FreshFluff]

The verbal version of Decatur Guy's idea would be to make a remark exactly like one he made to you, except with "Jewish" (or whatever other minority group he belongs to) subbed in for "gay." The one you used, "He's even more Jewish than you," would work. When he gets upset, you can tell him he's being over-sensitive. When he protests again, make your point. He might get angry and avoid you for a while, or you might end up in an Oppression Olympics-type conversation. But if he values the friendship, the experience may help him empathize with you.

 

But yeah, it's hard to change the way someone interacts with you after thirty-five years.

[SteveEscort]

If you are going to continue the friendship you have to be aware that he's never going to change and he might even resent the fact he has to curb his tongue in front of you. My personal opinion is to remain friends but try and find someone a little more tolerant to hang out with.

 

A female friend of mine lied to me about her former husband moving back in with her, I thought it was odd that Peter never seemed to be around when I would phone her at home and was always working night shift when I stopped over but I didn't really question it. However over the space of 18 months all I ever got was "Peter said this" and if I did something she didn't agree with she would say "Peter said you shouldn't have done that". She came on holiday with me to Turkey and was an absolute nightmare and something wasn't right. She claimed that Peter read one of my text messages to her and said i was interfering in them getting back together. All the text said was "What on earth does my escort work have to do with Peter ", it was another one of those Peter has an opinion days. Peter wasn't on my facebook account but one of my friends was friends with his sister on facebook and so I got chatting with her and she said "Peter isn't back in Newcastle, he's still with his second wife Ruth and he's working as a goods driver for the Navy, have a look on his wife's facebook it's under her maiden name". Ruth's facebook was/is open and blimey, there was Peter during that 18 months on holiday with her and their two children and there he was driving his truck at the naval ship yard and there he was collecting a bravey award. No reference to living 200 miles away.

 

My friend used "Peter" to belittle me wherever possible. "Peter" always made reference to the fact I was an escort, always passed comment on me being lazy and not having a "proper job". I decided to cut the friendship because the belittlement, which like in your case, it was a part of a personality they couldn't change. I took the cowards way and sent her a text message, which she acknowledged, telling her that I couldn't be friends with her because of the guilt she made me feel at times, using a fictitious persons comments instead of just telling me what's she thought herself. She claimed that he left his second wife to come back to her (they have a child together born before he married Ruth) and it lasted two weeks and he went back and she just carried on pretending he was around because it made her feel good. In other words belittling me made her feel good. Belittling people isn't good. It's very sad and unnecessary.

[+ ArVaGuy]

I had a similar situation with a straight friend I've known for nearly 20 years. Early in our relationship, he would make similar comments, use the feminine pronoun, and most irritating of all, reveal my sexual preference in social situations. This happened a couple of times in business related social events. We both work in the hospitality and convention industry which has a large gay presence.

 

At a dinner party at his house early on in our relationship he mentioned to a business contact that I was gay and single. The guy was straight, newly married, and visibly uncomfortable by the revelation. I think he thought my straight friend was try to set us up. It was odd, embarrassing, and downright akward- the guy's wife was present as well.

 

After the party was over I immediately addressed the issue with my friend. I made it clear that what he had done was unacceptable. That I decide when and where to reveal my personal details and that he was to cease use of the feminine pronoun in casual conversation. I made it clear that only my gay friends could have that privilege and his use of such was condescending.

 

He he was taken aback and did not fully understand how he had crossed a line. His wife had to spell it out for him. I did not address the matter in an angry tone either. I was matter of fact but very firm in delivering the message. This is likely why the relationship has still remained strong. Setting the boundaries are a part of any relationship be it lovers or friends, gay or straight.

 

One aspect of my own behavior changed as well though. I consciously decided not to discuss certain aspects of my gay identity with him. No personal details on my escapades as a gay single guy. Though I would share the "girl talk" with his now ex-wife. Even today, years on since that incident if similar comments even remotely appear in the discussion, I will cut him off depending on the circumstances.

 

My advice would be to address the matter forthright and not in a defensive posture. Tell your friend that his comments are making you uncomfortable. That out of respect for you as a person he should refrain from such behavior even if you have tolerated this from him for decades. If he is a true friend he will understand and respect your request. If not, then you may need to move on which could be difficult after so many years. I hope you are able to resolve the issue with your friend.

[wisconsinguy]

I had a similar situation with a straight friend I've known for nearly 20 years. Early in our relationship, he would make similar comments, use the feminine pronoun, and most irritating of all, reveal my sexual preference in social situations. This happened a couple of times in business related social events. We both work in the hospitality and convention industry which has a large gay presence.

 

At a dinner party at his house early on in our relationship he mentioned to a business contact that I was gay and single. The guy was straight, newly married, and visibly uncomfortable by the revelation. I think he thought my straight friend was try to set us up. It was odd, embarrassing, and downright akward- the guy's wife was present as well.

 

After the party was over I immediately addressed the issue with my friend. I made it clear that what he had done was unacceptable. That I decide when and where to reveal my personal details and that he was to cease use of the feminine pronoun in casual conversation. I made it clear that only my gay friends could have that privilege and his use of such was condescending.

 

He he was taken aback and did not fully understand how he had crossed a line. His wife had to spell it out for him. I did not address the matter in an angry tone either. I was matter of fact but very firm in delivering the message. This is likely why the relationship has still remained strong. Setting the boundaries are a part of any relationship be it lovers or friends, gay or straight.

 

One aspect of my own behavior changed as well though. I consciously decided not to discuss certain aspects of my gay identity with him. No personal details on my escapades as a gay single guy. Though I would share the "girl talk" with his now ex-wife. Even today, years on since that incident if similar comments even remotely appear in the discussion, I will cut him off depending on the circumstances.

 

My advice would be to address the matter forthright and not in a defensive posture. Tell your friend that his comments are making you uncomfortable. That out of respect for you as a person he should refrain from such behavior even if you have tolerated this from him for decades. If he is a true friend he will understand and respect your request. If not, then you may need to move on which could be difficult after so many years. I hope you are able to resolve the issue with your friend.

Very wise. I think many of us feel the same way. By sharing your situation, you pull it together very well.

[actor61]

Wow! You guys have all been so wise and helpful. What I've learned is that it's truly my fault for letting this situation continue for so long; I was trying to preserve a friendship that was valuable to me and worked in nearly every other way. But I was on the end of another demeaning remark in a phone conversation with my friend yesterday and I took all of the above advice and confronted him about it. I was again accused of being over sensitive and told to "lighten up". I said that I wanted to take a hiatus from the friendship, wished him well, and ended the conversation.

 

Thanks to all of you for sharing your feelings so honestly and eloquently.

[bigvalboy]

Wow! You guys have all been so wise and helpful. What I've learned is that it's truly my fault for letting this situation continue for so long; I was trying to preserve a friendship that was valuable to me and worked in nearly every other way. But I was on the end of another demeaning remark in a phone conversation with my friend yesterday and I took all of the above advice and confronted him about it. I was again accused of being over sensitive and told to "lighten up". I said that I wanted to take a hiatus from the friendship, wished him well, and ended the conversation.

 

Thanks to all of you for sharing your feelings so honestly and eloquently.

 

I'm truly sorry that it came to this. I was hoping that he would really listen to what you were conveying to him, but who knows, perhaps he will miss the friendship, think about what you said, and realize that you were serious, and reconnect.

 

I ended a 30 year friendship under almost the identical situation. I was the best man at his wedding, I was there when his children were born, I was there for him when his company collapsed, and I helped rebuild his life, and yet in the end I think I realized that deep in his soul, he didn't really respect me. In my case, walking away was the best thing to do, and I never looked back. He tried reconnecting with me years later, but blamed me for the breakup, so I walked away again. It's never easy. To this day, I think about him all the time, but friendships are fragile things, each person must bring something to the table, and meet somewhere in the middle.

[Kenny]

Good for you. You had long drawn an appropriate boundary -- and finally you enforced it. That's healthy behavior!

Wow! You guys have all been so wise and helpful. What I've learned is that it's truly my fault for letting this situation continue for so long; I was trying to preserve a friendship that was valuable to me and worked in nearly every other way. But I was on the end of another demeaning remark in a phone conversation with my friend yesterday and I took all of the above advice and confronted him about it. I was again accused of being over sensitive and told to "lighten up". I said that I wanted to take a hiatus from the friendship, wished him well, and ended the conversation.

 

Thanks to all of you for sharing your feelings so honestly and eloquently.

[+ dutchmuch]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cr4gTE1yPdc/SvJcI9I_y2I/AAAAAAAABlY/jfgdawrduiY/s320/clapping+hands.gif

 

Very good Actor61, you did the right thing!

[tyro]

+1

t

[BabyBoomer]

+2

 

~Boomer ~