When Airplanes Crash

[jeezifonly]

11 hours ago, mike carey said:

I had read it as saying that it wasn't safe to tell him, rather than flying wasn't safe because it still clearly is (recent changes to staffing arrangements in the FAA notwithstanding), but I now suspect that it was flying he was talking about. There may have been slight changes in aviation safety, but if so they are within the margin of error. I'm about to take my chances again, and I'm more concerned about the standard of in-flight service, or lack thereof.

The guy in charge of the Federal Agency is beholden to a maniac, and has no experience in the industry. I’m not telling my friend it’s safer now than ever, which has been the argument the past few years. 

I have no plans to fly myself. 

[Luv2play]

20 hours ago, BenjaminNicholas said:

You have statistics to back that claim up?

You're much more likely to die in a car crash than a plane crash.

Flying is safe.  Always has been.

Flying is safe until it isn’t. Statistically it is a safer mode of transportation than most. But like any mode that is dependent on mechanical devices and humans operating them, things can and do go wrong from time to time. 
The thing about airplane crashes is that they are spectacular but not in a good way. For most of us who fly a lot, we take the safety for granted. It’s only when we witness a crash from the media that we can put ourselves in the situation in our imaginations. 
We then tend to put it out of minds, thinking “that only happens to other people” . But of course one day that could include us. Not likely but not impossible. 

[BSR]

39 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

Flying is safe until it isn’t. Statistically it is a safer mode of transportation than most. But like any mode that is dependent on mechanical devices and humans operating them, things can and do go wrong from time to time. 
The thing about airplane crashes is that they are spectacular but not in a good way. For most of us who fly a lot, we take the safety for granted. It’s only when we witness a crash from the media that we can put ourselves in the situation in our imaginations. 
We then tend to put it out of minds, thinking “that only happens to other people” . But of course one day that could include us. Not likely but not impossible. 

Far more people choke to death while eating than die of shark attacks, but nobody thinks twice about munching a big bucket of popcorn (lots of little kids choke on popcorn for some reason) whereas the (very slim) possibility of a shark bite at least enters if not weighs heavily on beachgoers’ minds, especially after a recent news story.

Like you said, much of the disproportionate fear stems from the spectacular-ness of a plane crash or a shark attack vs. the mundane-ness of driving a car or gobbling popcorn.  While it’s not rational to fear flying more than traveling by car, it is human.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

14 hours ago, CuriousByNature said:

Anyone have a fourth interpretation?  

'Tell me about your mother...'

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

10 hours ago, jeezifonly said:

The guy in charge of the Federal Agency is beholden to a maniac, and has no experience in the industry. I’m not telling my friend it’s safer now than ever, which has been the argument the past few years. 

I have no plans to fly myself. 

I honestly don't think the current situation is anywhere near as worrisome as when Reagan fired the ATC in the '80s

That said, if you don't feel comfortable flying, don't.  

Do what makes you happy  

[+ ApexNomad]

[jeezifonly]

19 hours ago, BenjaminNicholas said:

I honestly don't think the current situation is anywhere near as worrisome as when Reagan fired the ATC in the '80s

That said, if you don't feel comfortable flying, don't.  

Do what makes you happy  

I was mostly referring to the encouragement I would offer to my phobic friend. I have no plans to fly, but when they materialize, I’ll take an extra look at carrier and airport safety records, and probably be aboard as scheduled. 

[EZEtoGRU]

It’s happened again. A Delta Connection aircraft from MSP has crash landed in Toronto. It came to rest upside down but the fuselage looks mostly intact. Hope everyone got out. 

Emergency teams respond to Delta plane crash at Toronto Pearson Airport | CNN

WWW.CNN.COM

---

A Delta Air Lines commuter plane arriving from Minneapolis has crashed at Canada’s Toronto Pearson Airport...

 

[MikeBiDude]

24 minutes ago, EZEtoGRU said:

It’s happened again. A Delta Connection aircraft from MSP has crash landed in Toronto. It came to rest upside down but the fuselage looks mostly intact. Hope everyone got out. 

Emergency teams respond to Delta plane crash at Toronto Pearson Airport | CNN

WWW.CNN.COM

---

A Delta Air Lines commuter plane arriving from Minneapolis has crashed at Canada’s Toronto Pearson Airport...

 

Apparently everyone got out. There are reports of a few critical injuries. 

[Luv2play]

Just a coincidence but it’s the same model plane that was involved in the DC collision with a helicopter. A Bombardier CRJ900. This one flipped over on landing. It was windy but nothing extraordinary. Strange. 

Edited February 18 by Luv2play

[BuffaloKyle]

59 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

It was windy but nothing extraordinary. Strange. 

It was definitely windy today. It was gusting 40 to 50 mph all day. I'm an hour and a half south of Toronto so I'm sure they had roughly the same wind speeds. Also we had rain the other day that all froze over as temperatures dropped to the low 20s/upper 10s today so any water iced up so I wonder if it hit some ice.

[Luv2play]

8 hours ago, BuffaloKyle said:

It was definitely windy today. It was gusting 40 to 50 mph all day. I'm an hour and a half south of Toronto so I'm sure they had roughly the same wind speeds. Also we had rain the other day that all froze over as temperatures dropped to the low 20s/upper 10s today so any water iced up so I wonder if it hit some ice.

8 hours ago, BuffaloKyle said:

It was definitely windy today. It was gusting 40 to 50 mph all day. I'm an hour and a half south of Toronto so I'm sure they had roughly the same wind speeds. Also we had rain the other day that all froze over as temperatures dropped to the low 20s/upper 10s today so any water iced up so I wonder if it hit some ice.

Just a coincidence but it’s the same model plane that was involved in the DC collision with a helicopter. A Bombardier CRJ900. This one flipped over on landing. It was windy but nothing extraordinary. Strange. 

Edited February 18 by Luv2play

[Luv2play]

The first reports were that the wind was around  25 to 28 mph at the airport (which would be only around 16 or 17mph). It was also reported that the wind was at 45 degrees to the runway. 
That would tell me that the pilot should have been crabbing the aircraft just prior to touchdown to keep his nose in the wind. At the last instant the pilot then has to straighten out the aircraft so it lands pointing straight ahead. 
This takes talent and experience. I’ve been on a flight where this occurred at La Guardia to our plane on an extremely windy night, much higher than 17mph. The plane was violently rocking just prior to touchdown. Then we could feel the plane swing to the right. When we touched down everyone broke into applause for the pilot.

If you were to land with the plane still not headed straight, I could see how it could flip over. It was travelling at 120 mph at that point, which is 4 times the wind speed coming at it at 45degrees. 

Edited February 18 by Luv2play

[MikeBiDude]

7 hours ago, Luv2play said:

wind was around  25 to 28 mph at the airport (which would be only around 16 or 17mph

Huh? Are you thinking kilometer/hour to MPH. Everything I saw said winds gusting to 40 miles per hour (or maybe knots?). Really, too early for any speculation, we will see.

[Luv2play]

4 hours ago, MikeBiDude said:

Huh? Are you thinking kilometer/hour to MPH. Everything I saw said winds gusting to 40 miles per hour (or maybe knots?). Really, too early for any speculation, we will see.

You’re right. I screwed up the conversion of kpm to mph. It was in the middle of the night and my brain was foggy. Reports today are saying the wind was about 29 mph gusting to 38 mph at the time. 
Also there are now several videos of the landing which show what happened, at least from a distance. They will be of great help to investigators though. 

[Luv2play]

The most convincing explanation I have heard so far from someone who had examined the videos of the landing, is that the pilot didn’t flare on touching down, meaning keeping his nose of the aircraft pointing up. Rather he hit the runway in a level attitude and hit it hard. 
 

Apparently the right rear landing gear collapsed and the airplane tilted to the right. Then the right wing hit the runway and broke off. After this the aircraft flipped over and landed on its back, facing the other direction from which it came. (That sounds like a somersault to me.)
 

Some passengers have described that after a hard landing the aircraft turned sideways in an instant and then they found themselves upside down, hanging from their seatbelts. 
 

This would be consistent with what the above description of events is.

[pubic_assistance]

They have refused to discuss whether or not the pilot was a DEI hire, so I am assuming that it was true.

If the pilot was NOT a DEI hire the accusations would have been put to bed immediately by simply saying they were NOT a DEI hire.

Instead they have refused to release any information about the pilot but to say they had experience.

[Luv2play]

One thing that still puzzles me is how the fuselage ended up pointing to the direction from which it landed, as reports have stated consistently. From the video available, it didn’t do a somersault as I previously suggested. So it must have spun around on its back after flipping over. 

[Luv2play]

I’ve now seen a video of the aircraft lying on its back a day after the crash and you can see  that it is mostly off the runway lying at an angle to the runway, maybe 45 degrees. This is not what the descriptions in the press that have said “pointing in the other direction.”
 

I find pictures are worth a thousand words, particularity when journalists are too lazy to state the facts correctly. 
 

Anyway it looks like the aircraft rolled over after losing its right wing and then spun around to come to a rest at an angle to the runway lying mostly off the runway. 

[+ azdr0710]

in case nobody has seen it, video of the Toronto crash......a very hard landing......

 

[Luv2play]

The TSB (transportation safety board) issued a preliminary report yesterday and it confirms that the plane came down too fast, was travelling too fast and was essentially level instead of nose up. This resulted in a hard landing and the right landing gear collapsed, causing the right wing to hit the runway and break off. All of this was not surprising as the videos showed that pretty well. 

The question of pilot competency will be foremost in mind given these findings. The first officer was at the controls and she was not all that experienced. The pilot was mentoring and had flown less than 4 hours in the last 30 days. He was mostly training newer pilots it seems.
 

Question will be why he wasn’t observing the speed, rate of descent and tilt of the nose more closely.  2 seconds before the crash landing an alarm went off in the cockpit. I bet he said “Oh shit”. 

[d.anders]

On 2/7/2025 at 12:59 AM, BenjaminNicholas said:

Flying is safe.  Always has been.

LOL. Not if you watch the post-Covid Karens on YouTube. Haven't flown since 2019. Those bitches scare the daylights out of me.

[Luv2play]

Yet another example of when flying isn’t safe. The helicopter crash in NYC this last week is yet another reminder of how capricious flying can be. It’s not as if this was an isolated event. This year there have been numerous crashes in the US involving smaller planes and helicopters. 
 

Of course the statistics indicate flying is still relatively safe. But just imagine dropping out of the sky unexpectedly, having a half minute or so to realize your life is over. I’ve done my fair share of flying in my lifetime in planes large and small. I got used to it although was a nervous flyer at the beginning. 

Car crashes are different. They happen in the blink of an eye. Plane crashes generally play out over a minute or so. Sometimes even much longer. The anguish and fear must be awful. 
 

 

[Monarchy79]

I simply won’t be flying anymore. The surge in plane crashes is disturbing. 

And for the statisticians who say that “scientifically”, planes are still safe….. I personally loathe the methodology of comparing aircrafts to other modes of transportation for various reasons:

1.) The average weight of a car is about 4100 lbs. the average weight of a commercial aircraft is about 175,000 lbs.

2.) A car can hold around 2 -5 riders, while a plane can hold scores of passengers. 

3.) Many car collisions happen everyday, with no fatalities. There are rarely “fender benders” in the sky. In most cases, when the plane crashes, death is imminent.

My trips will be quite long moving forward, because road trips, scenic train rides, and long cruises will be part of my itinerary . 

I cancelled two business trips (seminars), and took the virtual online option. I’m simply not flying anymore. 

My sincerest prayers for safety for those who still choose too. 
 

Edited April 14 by Monarchy79

[Monarchy79]

On 2/1/2025 at 5:05 PM, mike carey said:

Dulles is an alternative that is less painful now that the Metro goes there, but many will still opt for a central location like National. The real question is whether National is safe and if not what can be done to avoid more tragedies like this one. It can, and although it's over 40 years since the Florida airways crash, two at the same airport is concerning. For the sake of the innocent lives lost this week, the investigation needs to look at what can be done to make it safer. If that means fewer flights or higher fees to pay to enhance safety measures so be it. Let those rather than the whim of politicians concerned for their own convenience decide whether such an airport can be commercially viable.

Edit to add: If military aviation in the vicinity is essential for operational reasons (security flights) or the affairs of state (VIP transport) then civilian air traffic should be limited to the extent needed to allow that, but if the military aviation relates to routine tasks, for example the daily operations of Fort Belvoir it is that which should be limited to ensure the safety of civil aviation at National.

But this thread, although prompted by the American Airlines crash is about the wider topic of the human tragedy for those affected by crashes.

National is just not a safe airport, and doesn’t have the appropriate “air” infrastructure to handle as many flights that land and depart, while competing will military aircrafts. 

On a daily basis, one can literally see a “traffic” jam in the sky, of planes waiting to land. 
I live 10 minutes away from National airport and always used BWI or Dulles when I did fly.