"Nobody loves you when you're old and gay"

[SouthOfTheBorder]

I’m making provisions to stay in my own home when the time comes, no matter what.  I’d rather have a shorter life than the quality of life in assisted-living, even in a very good facility.  The most important thing is to have a home where aging in place considerations/modifications are ready before needed.

fyi - the business model for any sort of assisted-living care is built upon an average stay of between 18-24 months and almost always less than 36 months.  In other words, you will die there quick. 

One of the problems we have is we try to keep people alive way too long when the quality of life isn’t good & it just looks like prolonged suffering in a slow & inevitable decline.  
 Death isn’t something to fight or be afraid of. It’s the natural progression & ideally in old age, the end of a life well-lived.  
 

Edited December 15, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[ICTJOCK]

On 11/13/2023 at 8:52 PM, Coolwave35 said:

 

I learned that the last few months of your life is quite indicative of how you live your life. I’d like to think that good people aren’t discarded and it’s the assholes who are left to rot. I’m only 40, with not much experience with death so I could be wrong. 
 

 

I'm sure your above comments have some validity,  but I'd encourage you not to assume that's always the case.    I know of some very generous people who died with only mild support because they were quite old  (and many family and friends also had passed).    We had an elderly neighbor that passed with only a few family members around,  but she had been ill for quite some time,  but they she suddenly passed (and it wasn't expected)..

I would agree that those who are good people and loving of others pass with the love of those family and friends that are grateful for all that was shared.

[CuriousByNature]

9 hours ago, augustus said:

BINGO!   A person can decline to the point that they are bedridden, can't feed themselves or Alzheimers makes 24-hour supervision necessary.  That's when everyone scatters and anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or lying.  Having an elder in the home who can still manage the basic requirements of life is NOT on the same level as an incapacitated person, though many people seem to believe it is. 

A situation like you describe is one that would likely require more specialized treatment, care and equipment.  It would be very hard for someone who is not professionally trained to provide that level of intervention - though thankfully it seems rare for someone to go directly from independence to incapacitation unless there has been a medical crisis like a stroke.  In that case hopefully hospital facilities would fill the gap.  But for those with a gradual decline, family and friends can provide care and support until it becomes unsafe for the person to remain at home.  It doesn't mean that the family 'scatters' when the going gets rough - many people are probably kept at home longer than they should be because family members do not want to have them go into an institution.  I think it's comparatively rare for a family to try to ship their loved one off.

[marylander1940]

On 11/13/2023 at 9:49 AM, pubic_assistance said:

One of the big mistakes a lot of gay men seem to make is isolating themselves from the real world. Going to gay bars, gay restaurants, gay cruises and only keeping up with their gay friends.

Straight people have large family affairs, weddings and children. One of the great joys in life (for me) is seeing those kids grow up. I just attended a wedding last weekend for my niece. Being "Uncle" whether by blood or friendship is certainly a resource for late-in-life love and support when you spend your early years being a supportive "family" member for the younger generation.

 

Oh ": the gays"....

I know a lot of straight people who don't have kids, some also have them without getting married, I also know many lesbians who have children. Obviously, it's a lot easier for them to do it considering some straight or bi guy could do them the "favor" for free and nature will take care of the rest. 

For gay men having children in most cases requires surrogacy which is very expensive, and most can't afford it, but they can always adopt if they choose to do so. I guess you're in favor of gay men adopting unwanted kids, right? 

Many families also benefit from having a gay uncle without kids (like ME) because they'll inherit his money and in some cases it's generational wealth that will be felt for decades to come. Gay men can also have siblings who are straight, right? Some posters in this thread have no siblings, that could happen also to straight men, right? 

Ps: gay bars I know but "gay restaurants"? Do you realize that most of "the gays" have straight workmates and deal with straight people in real life.

Edited December 15, 2023 by marylander1940

[Lookin]

On 12/13/2023 at 1:42 PM, Charlie said:

. . . lately I have been finding bananas that look unblemished on the outside, but are rotten when I peel away the skin.

Honey, you don't know the half of it.  

Just learned that Chiquita herself is pushing eighty.  She came to life in 1944, but was not trademarked until 1947.  Although we were born within a year of each other, and are blemished on the outside and rotting on the inside, my own attempts at getting trademarked have all been patently denied.  I guess not all elongated fruits are equal in the eyes of the law.  

 

[+ augustus]

4 hours ago, CuriousByNature said:

A situation like you describe is one that would likely require more specialized treatment, care and equipment.  It would be very hard for someone who is not professionally trained to provide that level of intervention - though thankfully it seems rare for someone to go directly from independence to incapacitation unless there has been a medical crisis like a stroke.  In that case hopefully hospital facilities would fill the gap.  But for those with a gradual decline, family and friends can provide care and support until it becomes unsafe for the person to remain at home.  It doesn't mean that the family 'scatters' when the going gets rough - many people are probably kept at home longer than they should be because family members do not want to have them go into an institution.  I think it's comparatively rare for a family to try to ship their loved one off.

I was liking your post until that last line. When the going gets tough, it's comparatively common for a family to try to ship their loved one off.

[Lookin]

When I was living in India many years ago, I was struck by the prevalence of intergenerational living.  A family would own a compound with several living units inside the walls.  Kids would grow up surrounded by parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins.  I always considered it an ideal way to live.  If a child's own parents weren't up to the job, there were plenty of adults around who could pick up the slack.  Cooking was also done in groups with skills being passed along.  And older adults weren't required to keep the household running and they had plenty of help when they needed it.

I've always enjoyed cooperative living and have fantasized about getting a group together, selling our houses and buying a larger property with separate living units, but with a common kitchen and social areas.  I figured we could even hire a handyman who could help with the plumbing and drive us around when necessary.

I've mentioned this to some of my contemporaries and the allure was there.  But I think there's also a rut we get into and the idea of actually selling a house that's been part of our lives and part of our estate planning could be a risky move.  It would be hard to go back if the cooperative living didn't pan out.  I think the key to making it work would be finding a property that we all really wanted to live on.

Having seen cooperative living work so well, it's an idea I can't get out of my head.  And, as our population continues to grow and as we learn more about the value of social bonds, the idea seems to get better with age.  Which is certainly something we all strive for.

[Thelatin]

It’s difficult I, “take care” of my dad.  As in I have him in a nice facility and visit on occasion.   It’s difficult when he spends his days watching the news, so his conversations revolve around Ukraine, Israel, those horrible LGBTQ people destroying the country etc.  Thank God he hasn’t discovered right wing Twitter.

He’s just a pleasure to spend time with.

[+ José Soplanucas]

6 hours ago, CuriousByNature said:

A situation like you describe is one that would likely require more specialized treatment, care and equipment.  It would be very hard for someone who is not professionally trained to provide that level of intervention - though thankfully it seems rare for someone to go directly from independence to incapacitation unless there has been a medical crisis like a stroke.  In that case hopefully hospital facilities would fill the gap.  But for those with a gradual decline, family and friends can provide care and support until it becomes unsafe for the person to remain at home.  It doesn't mean that the family 'scatters' when the going gets rough - many people are probably kept at home longer than they should be because family members do not want to have them go into an institution.  I think it's comparatively rare for a family to try to ship their loved one off.

I do not think we have stats, I am not sure. What is indeed a mistake is making generalizations based on our happy or bitter reality. 

When I shared the situation in my family and in many friends' was not to project them to everyone else, but to contradict the blunt and bitter generalizations some were making in this thread.

[+ WilliamM]

5 hours ago, marylander1940 said:

Oh ": the gays"....

I know a lot of straight people who don't have kids, some also have them without getting married, I also know many lesbians who have children. Obviously, it's a lot easier for them to do it considering some straight or bi guy could do them the "favor" for free and nature will take care of the rest. 

For gay men having children in most cases requires surrogacy which is very expensive, and most can't afford it, but they can always adopt if they choose to do so. I guess you're in favor of gay men adopting unwanted kids, right? 

Many families also benefit from having a gay uncle without kids (like ME) because they'll inherit his money and in some cases it's generational wealth that will be felt for decades to come. Gay men can also have siblings who are straight, right? Some posters in this thread have no siblings, that could happen also to straight men, right? 

Ps: gay bars I know but "gay restaurants"? Do you realize that most of "the gays" have straight workmates and deal with straight people in real life.

M  uncle and aunt could  not have children. Our parents and my brother and myself spent most holidays with them. 

We did inherit their possessions

 

 

Just wish they had lived longer 

[+ Charlie]

I think a lot of the arguing that this thread has deteriorated into is due to my failing to clearly define my terms. The roles of "responsible person" and "caregiver" can be played by a single person, but they don't have to be. I happen to be both for my spouse. As "caregiver", I do all his shopping, make his meals, administer his medications, take him for walks, sometimes wash and shave him, help him use his computer and DVD player, take him to medical appointments, etc., and watch over him for much of the time. As the "responsible person," I make his medical appointments, take him to them and sit in with him during them, handle all his financial affairs, including banking and consultation with his financial advisor, do his taxes, monitor his phone calls, and act as intermediary with the government (jury duty, SS, etc.). I have his power of attorney.

I could hire someone to be his caregiver, either in house or in a care facility, but I would not want that person or institution to also do all the things I do as the "responsible person" for him. I started this thread because I wondered how others here went about finding or choosing a responsible person for themselves if they didn't have children or other family to act as the "responsible person," not necessarily also as a caregiver. I like and trust my in-laws, specifically my spouse's youngest brother and his niece, not to simply find a way to get our money and abandon us or me to no care or poor care, but I don't expect either of them to be his/my/our caregiver.  But I do wonder if my spouse dies first--which is highly likely--whether they or other close family members will feel as much responsibility for my care as I believe they would for his.

[marylander1940]

On 11/13/2023 at 3:56 PM, Vegas_Millennial said:

If it helps to lessen the fear and realize we're not alone, remember this concern is not limited to gays.  It is not even limited to single people or couples without children.  Some people have children, but their children are selfish and make lousy care-givers.

So, let's remember to pay it forward and look after that senior on our street who lives alone.  Whether gay or straight, male or female, parent or childless, they may experience loneliness.  Whether you believe in Karma, or just the opportunity to build relationships, it starts with actively maintaining mutual friendships with friends of all ages and health.

Exactly.... It's all relative to how you live your life and also the circumstances. We can't control everything in life but we can always make most of the choices and some have big foreseeable consequences.

 

[pubic_assistance]

21 hours ago, augustus said:

People are lucky if they can find ONE PERSON in their family who will make such a commitment.

These comments make me thankful that i grew up in a culture that values dedication to others. Especially your elders.

We lived in my grandparents house.

They helped with the bills when we were young.

When my grandparents aged and my grandmother was widowed, my parents took over the caretaking and all the grandchildren participated from time to time. Even if it was just to take my grandmother for a walk when she was in her 90s.

(I used to RACE her down the street when she was in her 60s) and although I did allow her to keep up as not to humiliate her..she WAS pretty damn.fast for her age.

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by pubic_assistance
punctuation

[SouthOfTheBorder]

‘Financial Ruin Is Baked Into The System’

Thousands of people shared their experiences and related to the financial drain on families portrayed in the Dying Broke series

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/15/health/readers-long-term-care.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Edited December 22, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[SouthOfTheBorder]

On 12/15/2023 at 2:42 PM, Thelatin said:

It’s difficult when he spends his days watching the news, so his conversations revolve around Ukraine, Israel, those horrible LGBTQ people destroying the country etc.

I completely relate to this & understand.  my elderly parents also fell victim to 24/7 watching “the news” - even though they lived in a very safe & tranquil small town, they were convinced of all sorts of conspiracy theories that never came to pass.  these channels prey on the elderly and manipulate by fear.  
just look at the ads on the shows & you know who the targets are - reverse mortgages, gold coins, memory supplements and other assorted scams. 

the non-stop consumption of “news” completely changed them & very difficult to carry on any sort of a conversation that didn’t revolve around what they had just seen on TV.
And then at the very end - all of that made no difference whatsoever.  Quite sad actually to have the last years of life spent that way.  It’s all about money: monetizing grievance, fear & anger for profit. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[marylander1940]

On 12/15/2023 at 6:55 AM, SouthOfTheBorder said:

I’m making provisions to stay in my own home when the time comes, no matter what.  I’d rather have a shorter life than the quality of life in assisted-living, even in a very good facility.  The most important thing is to have a home where aging in place considerations/modifications are ready before needed.

fyi - the business model for any sort of assisted-living care is built upon an average stay of between 18-24 months and almost always less than 36 months.  In other words, you will die there quick. 

One of the problems we have is we try to keep people alive way too long when the quality of life isn’t good & it just looks like prolonged suffering in a slow & inevitable decline.  
 Death isn’t something to fight or be afraid of. It’s the natural progression & ideally in old age, the end of a life well-lived.  
 

many Americans should follow your steps and move to a 3rd world country where dollars go further and open all kinds of doors. Here unfortunately staying home requires an amount unaffordable to most. 

[SouthOfTheBorder]

26 minutes ago, marylander1940 said:

Here unfortunately staying home requires an amount unaffordable to most.

if you think staying at home is expensive, just wait until you see what assisted living costs….costs of $10,000 monthly are not unheard of.  And when your money has been drained, then you get booted to a Medicaid facility.
And that’s the point - in any scenario, getting old in America will break you & your family

 

[+ WilliamM]

2 hours ago, marylander1940 said:

many Americans should follow your steps and move to a 3rd world country where dollars go further and open all kinds of doors. Here unfortunately staying home requires an amount unaffordable to most. 

Often moving to a third world  country is a mistake 😞

[Danny-Darko]

11 hours ago, WilliamM said:

Often moving to a third world  country is a mistake 😞

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. it depends on a lot of factors. For many it's worked out, but it's not a sure thing and as easy and fun as many promote it to be these days on YouTube. And the US Dollar doesn't buy as much nor go as far as it used to decades ago even in third world countries. Many countries have "Two-tiered pricing" for everything, one for locals and one for foreigners. And if one requires western first world standard healthcare or certain comforts we take for granted in the USA, then life is no longer near as cheap as it is for locals or others with lower standards or expectations. Plus growing old alone and being sick in a place where one has no family or cultural ties can be even worst that doing so at home. For us gay men it's not the same as for the hetero married couple that go live their twilight years in some exotic land pooling both their retirements and savings and having each other to depend on.       

Edited December 23, 2023 by Danny-Darko

[+ augustus]

On 12/15/2023 at 5:46 PM, pubic_assistance said:

These comments make me thankful that i grew up in a culture that values dedication to others. Especially your elders.

We lived in my grandparents house.

They helped with the bills when we were young.

When my grandparents aged and my grandmother was widowed, my parents took over the caretaking and all the grandchildren participated from time to time. Even if it was just to take my grandmother for a walk when she was in her 90s.

(I used to RACE her down the street when she was in her 60s) and although I did allow her to keep up as not to humiliate her..she WAS pretty damn.fast for her age.

 

"On 9/27/2023 at 9:42 AM, pubic_assistance said:
Too many people live past a true active life.

My own father has been sitting in a chair waiting to die for far too long. Keeping his heart beating with dozens of pills, but devoid of any ability to do anything but watch TV, eat and shit.

I find it rather ridiculous and sad.

It's not a life to live."

 

There is a conflict between these 2 of your posts.

Edited December 23, 2023 by augustus

[pubic_assistance]

21 minutes ago, augustus said:

There is a conflict between these 2 of your posts

I don't think there is. My father is very well cared for.

I just find it rather sad that his quality of life is gone and medications keep him alive beyond any ability to get out and enjoy a full life.

He is home and my family is caring for him daily. Hasn't been abandoned to a senior care facility 

My family does believe in taking care of our elderly members in spite of my PERSONAL opinions about keeping people alive past their ability to live an active life.  I am happy they are cared for. But would prefer that they not spend SO many years sitting around.

 

[marylander1940]

25 minutes ago, augustus said:

"On 9/27/2023 at 9:42 AM, pubic_assistance said:
Too many people live past a true active life.

My own father has been sitting in a chair waiting to die for far too long. Keeping his heart beating with dozens of pills, but devoid of any ability to do anything but watch TV, eat and shit.

I find it rather ridiculous and sad.

It's not a life to live."

 

There is a conflict between these 2 of your posts.

For a moment I had a flashback to some "death panels" talk 14 years ago... 

I do agree with your post!

[pubic_assistance]

32 minutes ago, marylander1940 said:

For a moment I had a flashback to some "death panels" talk 14 years ago... 

I do agree with your post!

I think its important to help your family retain a degree of dignity and love in their final years.

I just don't care for modern medicine's intervention that leaves people dying in bed for years and years.

When I was a child, elderly family would take to their bed in their final days. We'd all pitch in to make sure their last days were peaceful.

Now it's 2023 and my father has been sitting around "dying" for years.  I don't find the drawn-out death to benefit anyone. Especially the person who's suffering it.

 

 

[+ José Soplanucas]

2 hours ago, augustus said:

"On 9/27/2023 at 9:42 AM, pubic_assistance said:
Too many people live past a true active life.

My own father has been sitting in a chair waiting to die for far too long. Keeping his heart beating with dozens of pills, but devoid of any ability to do anything but watch TV, eat and shit.

I find it rather ridiculous and sad.

It's not a life to live."

 

There is a conflict between these 2 of your posts.

 

He is researching other posters.

 

[+ WilliamM]

On 12/15/2023 at 9:44 AM, marylander1940 said:

Oh ": the gays"....

I know a lot of straight people who don't have kids, some also have them without getting married, I also know many lesbians who have children. Obviously, it's a lot easier for them to do it considering some straight or bi guy could do them the "favor" for free and nature will take care of the rest. 

For gay men having children in most cases requires surrogacy which is very expensive, and most can't afford it, but they can always adopt if they choose to do so. I guess you're in favor of gay men adopting unwanted kids, right? 

Many families also benefit from having a gay uncle without kids (like ME) because they'll inherit his money and in some cases it's generational wealth that will be felt for decades to come. Gay men can also have siblings who are straight, right? Some posters in this thread have no siblings, that could happen also to straight men, right? 

Ps: gay bars I know but "gay restaurants"? Do you realize that most of "the gays" have straight workmates and deal with straight people in real life.

"Many families have a gay uncle"

 

Not all gay uncles are somewhat rich!