Coronasomnia

[pubic_assistance]

On 9/25/2023 at 2:45 PM, Marc in Calif said:

You might be thinking of the total number of people who have produced COVID-19 antibodies

Yes. Thank you.

[SirBillybob]

12 hours ago, LFABWC said:

Omg……this Covid stuff!! 

well the important thing however is that now everybody that wants to get the extra vaccinations and new boosters will be able to get it.

and that all the people that do not want to get those extra boosters and vaccinations will be able to stay booster free.

by the way I am wondering when is the CDC or whoever is in charge going to finally approve the Novovax booster in the US?

the only ones available here so far are the Moderna and Pfizer ones.

Interesting and important question. Short answer: A lot of complex variables are involved in second-guessing timeline for the Novavax formulation. I will touch on a few. 

Note that none of the 3 are technically boosters. They are designed as if the ancestral CoV strain in well behind us. Therefore, the standards of viability are as stringent as a few years ago for the initial candidates. That said, track records and vaccine platform preferences are likely ‘unofficially’ folded in to authorization decisions.

Novavax is historically plagued with being bridesmaid, option of last resort, go-to choice of mRNA hesitancies, &c. I don’t need inoculation now but I would have no problem choosing Nuvaxovid re-boot. That said, I am Team Whatever Is Approved.

All 3 companies presented to CDC’s immunization advisory committee on 12 Sept, a day following FDA approval of both Pfizer and Moderna. So the two mRNA options already had it in the bag.

Moderna is recently approved in Canada while Pfizer awaits disposition. The two are essentially viewed as interchangeable. 

My sense is that the trajectory of non-clinical or pre-clinical (ie, animal models of immune response) progressing to human data confers an edge. Novavax has presented macaque immunogenicity data. As I put elsewhere they are still recruiting for their human immunogenicity trial and all subjects (N=330?) will get the new vaccine.  If desired, I can steer those interested but it helps to know if study site location will fit, and a few attendances and solid follow-up commitment are required. But no older than age 54. 

I think another hurdle for Novavax is the added demonstration of legitimacy for cross-platform, or what is called heterologous dosing. Most folks have had within-mRNA sequential dosing, termed homologous. The CDC meeting threw a question to Novavax regarding the introduction of heterologous dosing for a greater number of people having previous exclusive mRNA uptake. Homogolous and heterologous dosing are generally considered mutually non-inferior but there may be sticklers peppering authorization entities around this question.

In sum, I would venture to forecast that Novavax access, although likely quick at getting from authorization to table, will not precede Turkey dinner or be stuffed into mantle stockings. In fact, it could be initially restricted to previous Nuvaxovid recipients. Its other two potentials are the heterologous model as described above with single-dose series or a 2-dose series for those completely unvaccinated to date.

Edited September 28, 2023 by SirBillybob

[Marc in Calif]

13 hours ago, Unicorn said:

WTF? You completely misunderstood the CDC data. The data clearly show that as of November 2022, the last data shown in that link, 75% of adults had been infected and 96.7% of adults (97.9% of men) showed evidence of immunity as of the end of 2022. Obviously, the numbers can only have gone up since then. Since very few people have taken precautions since late 2022, one can deduce a significant climb in those numbers. As @pubic_assistance said, only a complete recluse could have avoided infection in the Americas or in Europe....

I misunderstood nothing, Herr Doctor. 

@pubic_assistance repeatedly claimed that virtually all Americans have had the disease: "Everyone's had Covid."

This is not true. Even @pubic_assistance himself subsequently admitted that this was not true when I pointed out that he was including people who simply had COVID-19 antibodies but not diagnoses of COVID-19. 

The CDC makes that distinction. Why? Because it's important. 🎯

They report an estimated 96.7% of Americans have some type of antibodies against COVID-19. That’s either from getting vaccinated or having the virus.

That study showed 77.5% have at least some immunity from having the virus. That means by the end of December 2022, about a quarter of the country still had not caught COVID.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Marc in Calif said:

I misunderstood nothing, Herr Doctor. 

@pubic_assistance repeatedly claimed that virtually all Americans have had the disease: "Everyone's had Covid."

This is not true. Even @pubic_assistance himself subsequently admitted that this was not true when I pointed out that he was including people who simply had COVID-19 antibodies but not diagnoses of COVID-19. 

The CDC makes that distinction. Why? Because it's important. 🎯

They report an estimated 96.7% of Americans have some type of antibodies against COVID-19. That’s either from getting vaccinated or having the virus.

That study showed 77.5% have at least some immunity from having the virus. That means by the end of December 2022, about a quarter of the country still had not caught COVID.

Virtually everyone doesn't mean every single person, obviously. And obviously data from late 2022 doesn't reflect the present, especially since the overwhelming majority of people have been living their normal lives since late 2022, not restricting their gatherings, travel, and so on. Although it doesn't look as if anyone has taken the data since late 2022 (would be pretty obvious anyway), one can easily deduce that few people haven't had exposure to the actual virus by this point, other than, as @pubic_assistance pointed out, the occasional recluse. 

The situation is analogous to older adults who have no recollection of having had chickenpox. When such people are tested for chickenpox antibodies, however, more than 90% show evidence of prior infection. During my 32 year career, I can remember testing a fairly large number of adults who had no recollection of having had chickenpox. I can only remember one who tested negative for antibodies. Is it possible for someone in the US not to have been exposed to the virus? Obviously, yes. That being said, the vast majority of people who've never been diagnosed simply had a subclinical infection. Have I ever tested positive? No. However, if I were to be tested for prior exposure, I would be extraordinarily surprised if I tested negative. I go to crowded locales frequently, and have had 3 parties in my own house with over 100 people in attendance this year alone (and have gone to many other parties with that many in attendance). 

There are probably people out there who never go to the movies, theater, opera, bars, parties, nor take plane/train/subway/bus trips. Those may have avoided the virus, I suppose. Otherwise, the absence of a prior positive test is highly unlikely to represent someone who's never been exposed. I think that any normal person would have understood that when p_a said that virtually everyone had been exposed, he didn't exclude the possibility of someone actually never having been exposed. He obviously just meant it was highly unlikely.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Unicorn

[Marc in Calif]

2 hours ago, Unicorn said:

... one can easily deduce that few people haven't had exposure to the actual virus by this point, other than, as @pubic_assistance pointed out, the occasional recluse. 

 

You clearly didn't read what @pubic_assistance originally wrote on Monday:

Unless you live on a remote island somewhere cut off from civilization, everyone's had Covid.

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Marc in Calif said:

You clearly didn't read what @pubic_assistance originally wrote on Monday:

Unless you live on a remote island somewhere cut off from civilization, everyone's had Covid.

You clearly don't understand what just about everybody else understands. "Everybody" doesn't necessarily mean every single person on the planet. I, and assume most people, have made statements such as "Everybody likes chicken <shirimp, guacamole, etc.>!" (for example, when preparing dishes for a party). That doesn't mean I can't imagine the existence of a single person who doesn't like chicken. It would be clumsy to add "Just about everybody likes chicken!", though I guess one would have to in order to avoid confusing people like you. Everybody who's anybody understands that... 🙄

Edited September 27, 2023 by Unicorn

[Luv2play]

On 9/25/2023 at 3:20 PM, SirBillybob said:

These CDC data are entirely consistent with Canada’s Immunity Task Force findings, up to and including July 2023, so ours slightly higher in the categorical nucleocapsid antibody rates that signify infection, as I indicated above. 

I also think I have not had Covid altho my antibodies from 6 vaccinations would show a positive result. I live in a small town so had limited exposure to large populations. For over two years I had no colds or flu symptoms. Last winter I had a cold and self tested twice as negative for Covid.

So yes, I think I am among the minority who have not had it. I couldn't be bothered to go to any effort to do any fuether testing. What would it prove?

[Marc in Calif]

29 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

"Everybody" doesn't necessarily mean every single person on the planet.

But 77.5% is clearly not "everybody"! And yes, that number has probably gone up in calendar year 2023, but not 20 percentage points up. 🤣

Yet it's still very far from the "like 95%" suggested by @pubic_assistance

Edited September 27, 2023 by Marc in Calif

[Luv2play]

Dr. Denial is still operating true to form.

[Marc in Calif]

6 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

Dr. Denial is still operating true to form.

Dr. Denial and his Nursing_Assistance?

[Rudynate]

27 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

I also think I have not had Covid altho my antibodies from 6 vaccinations would show a positive result. I live in a small town so had limited exposure to large populations. For over two years I had no colds or flu symptoms. Last winter I had a cold and self tested twice as negative for Covid.

So yes, I think I am among the minority who have not had it. I couldn't be bothered to go to any effort to do any fuether testing. What would it prove?

No, I haven't had it either. In June 2020, when availability of COVID tests was sketchy, I had an antibody test that was negative.  I think I have had three COVID tests, all negative and I have had 5 or 6 self-administered antigen tests, all negative.  I've had a full complement of vaccinations and boosters, so I imagine an antibody test would be positive. 

[Rudynate]

1 hour ago, Marc in Calif said:

You clearly didn't read what @pubic_assistance originally wrote on Monday:

Unless you live on a remote island somewhere cut off from civilization, everyone's had Covid.

I think people are careless in their use of the term "exposed."  To me, "exposed" does not mean "infected."  An exposure means you came in contact with someone who was infected, but it doesn't necessarily mean you were infected.   I'm sure I was exposed many times, but I don't think I was ever infected.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Rudynate said:

I think people are careless in their use of the term "exposed."  To me, "exposed" does not mean "infected."  An exposure means you came in contact with someone who was infected, but it doesn't necessarily mean you were infected.   I'm sure I was exposed many times, but I don't think I was ever infected.

In medical terms, being exposed to an infected agent, means the agent has gotten into your body, even if you didn't get sick, not just that you walked past someone with a contagious illness. I realize that in common speech, exposure may have a different meaning. "An infection is the invasion of tissues by pathogens, their multiplication, and the reaction of host tissues to the infectious agent and the toxins they produce." If the exposure is controlled by a person's immune system before it can do damage, there may be immunological evidence of the exposure, but the person doesn't get sick. 

What is the difference between exposure and infection to a virus?

HEALTH-DESK.ORG

---

Jul 20, 2020 by Health Desk – When it comes to infectious diseases, "exposure" means coming into contact with a virus or bacteria. Infection happens when someone is...

"When it comes to infectious diseases, "exposure" means coming into contact with a virus or bacteria. Infection happens when someone is exposed and actually becomes sick from the exposure. Exposure does not always lead to an infection. If the time a person is exposed to the virus is very short, if the amount of virus that enters the body is not in a large enough quantity, or if the body's immune system is able to quickly fight it off, then exposure will be less likely to lead to infection....". Exposure does NOT mean merely coming into contact with an infected person. I realize this can be confusing for someone not versed in medical terminology.

Therefore, especially if someone has been vaccinated for a pathogen, exposure often doesn't lead to infection. At this point in time, the vast majority of people in the Western Hemisphere and Europe have been exposed, in the medical sense, to the SARS-CoV2 virus. The few who haven't are mainly those who've kept to themselves during this time. I would challenge anyone who believes he has NOT been exposed to take a blood test for the anti-SARS-CoV-2 Nucleocapsid antibody. This will NOT come out positive for someone who's been immunized but not exposed. Unless you've been basically keeping to yourself (avoiding public transportation, theater, bars, parties, and so on), your result will probably come out positive, even if you've never tested positive on an antigen test. I promise to thoroughly congratulate anyone without those antibodies. 

[Buddy15]

I want to thank everyone for not hijacking this thread to snipe at each other and instead answering my original post about insomnia!🤣

[MscleLovr]

I was just about to write and ask about us getting back to the OP’s question when your post appeared! 😎

Am I right in thinking the thread cured your insomnia temporarily?

Edited September 28, 2023 by MscleLovr

[SirBillybob]

7 hours ago, Buddy15 said:

I want to thank everyone for not hijacking this thread to snipe at each other and instead answering my original post about insomnia!🤣

Blame me, though I think I’ve tried to refrain in this thread from digging rabbit holes, planting land mines, lighting gas lamps, remotely flying arms-loaded drones, and standing on tall buildings with telescopic lens hoisted up to my face.😏

I spearheaded the convo about the estimates of true SARS-CoV infection to date because if you were never infected so far you cannot have COVID-specific sleep disturbance, physiologically that is. Pandemic stressors are another matter. And because the likelihood of never having been infected is surprisingly high, particularly among older persons. 

Well, what information do you (OP) have that could corroborate the hypothesis you put forward here? ?? There is typically a threshold of added information that assists other platform members to enter productive responses.

There is nobody in my family or social network that, if uncertain about actual infection but experiencing new symptom presentation that COULD be a signature indicator of lingering COVID morbidity, wouldn’t be dragged by me to the venipuncture lab with a requisition in hand for assessing infection-induced antibodies. I would happily pay the mid-2-figure amount myself.

The test will cover both types of antibodies:

1. the quantitative volume of spike (S) protein antibodies that inevitably resulted from infection alone, inevitably resulted from vaccination alone, or from both infection and vaccination (hybrid immune response), the test therefore accurately signifying past infection on its own only if not at all vaccinated with any dose because of the common feature of both infection and vaccination creating S antibodies. 

2. the categorical binary (yes detected vs no not detected) of nucleocapsid protein (N) antibodies (not quantitatively depicted) that would be represented by having had SARS-CoV-2 infection or the disease COVID (terms used interchangeably) irrespective of vaccination uptake.

The S volume is a bonus in the 2-for-1 procedure if one wishes to triangulate immunity information around trip-planning and booster or reboot formulation vaxx uptake timing. If my recent infection had been asymptomatic and not spurred infection testing I would have pursued, in the absence of knowing infection history to date, yet another N test before queuing for the Fall rollout. Similarly, I was in an early vaccination trial fraught with deficiencies and unblinded myself at 10 months at the point early trial data were reported regarding the percentages of poor levels of antibody titres for vaccine recipients. They had 10 months of follow-up and my data were not discarded because infection incidence rates are collapsed across total study cohort person-years. They only eventually got as far as 6-month immunogenicity for the study cohort anyway. Sure enough, my S antibody levels sucked, N antibody negative, and S levels then soared at the point a few days prior to boost dose of 2-dose mRNA primary series. Hit the road travelling abroad with a sense of solid artificial immunity yet realization of risk of infection.

I would not have opened this can of worms but for the fact that a very sizeable proportion of the population assumes not having been infected when they actually have been infected and do possess N antibodies and, more to the point, approximately half of that proportion in volume terms among older folks have never been infected irrespective of their second-guessing assumptions about infection status … some 99%-100% of that population component would not know they don’t harbour N antibodies and it would not be front of mind anyway outside of the context of a clinical reason that renders expedient knowing the specifics of antibody status. Most are understandably fine with knocking over the hurdle bar while assuming infection immunity status, yet circumventing the high bar of definitive awareness. 

Since long-COVID morbidity is not dissimilar from unrelated disease or pathogens, any clinician assessing such in the context of unconfirmed past infection might be deemed to be out to lunch. The imperative of a simple N antibody test is greater among older folks because their past infection rates are the lowest for adults (estimated at 70-75% cumulatively in Canada, for example) and older folks are more likely to possess morbidity that resembles COVID symptom sequelae yet is truly unrelated if infection did not occur.

Similarly, any adult person, particularly not older group, doggedly putting forward the logical fallacy that they have not been infected (we already know those subjective estimates fall short of reality) but claiming to have extended vaccination-induced morbidity should have the nucleocapsid antibody assay in order to possibly disabuse them of the claim, depending on the N binary result, that vaccination alone fucked them over.

Edited September 28, 2023 by SirBillybob

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

1 hour ago, SirBillybob said:

Blame me, though I think I’ve tried to refrain from digging rabbit holes, planting land mines, lighting gas lamps, remotely flying arms-loaded drones, and standing on tall buildings with telescopic lens hoisted up to my face.😏

I spearheaded the convo about the estimates of true SARS-CoV infection to date because if you were never infected so far you cannot have COVID-specific sleep disturbance, physiologically that is. Pandemic stressors are another matter. And because the likelihood of never having been infected is surprisingly high, particularly among older persons. 

Well, what information do you (OP) have that could corroborate the hypothesis you put forward here? ?? There is typically a threshold of added information that assists other platform members to enter productive responses.

There is nobody in my family or social network that, if uncertain about actual infection but experiencing new symptom presentation that COULD be a signature indicator of lingering COVID morbidity, wouldn’t be dragged by me to the venipuncture lab with a requisition in hand for assessing infection-induced antibodies. I would happily pay the mid-2-figure amount myself.

The test will cover both types of antibodies:

1. the quantitative volume of spike (S) protein antibodies that inevitably resulted from infection, inevitably resulted from vaccination, or both infection and vaccination (hybrid immune response), the latter therefore accurately signifying past infection ONLY if not at all vaccinated with any dose because of the common feature of both infection and vaccination creating S antibodies. 

2. the categorical binary (yes detected vs no not detected) of nucleocapsid protein (N) antibodies (not quantitatively depicted) that would be represented by having had SARS-CoV-2 infection or the disease COVID (terms used interchangeably) irrespective of vaccination uptake.

The S volume is a bonus in the 2-for-1 procedure if one wishes to triangulate immunity information around trip-planning and booster or reboot formulation vaxx uptake timing. If my recent infection had been asymptomatic and not spurred infection testing I would have pursued, in the absence of knowing infection history to date, yet another N test before queuing for the Fall rollout. Similarly, I was in an early vaccination trial fraught with deficiencies and unblinded myself at 10 months at the point early trial data were reported regarding the percentages of poor levels of geometric mean antibody titres for vaccine recipients. They had 10 months of follow-up and my data were not discarded because infection incidence rates are collapsed across total study cohort person-years. They only eventually got as far as 6-month immunogenicity for the study cohort anyway. Sure enough, my S antibody levels sucked, N antibody negative, and S levels then soared at the point a few days prior to boost dose of 2-dose mRNA primary series. Hit the road travelling abroad with a sense of solid artificial immunity yet realization of risk of infection.

I would not have opened this can of worms but for the fact that a very sizeable proportion of the population assumes not having been infected when they actually have been infected and do possess N antibodies and, more to the point, approximately half of that proportion in volume terms among older folks have never been infected irrespective of their second-guessing assumptions about infection status … some 99%-100% of that population component would not know they don’t harbour N antibodies and it would not be front of mind anyway outside of the context of a clinical reason that renders expedient knowing the specifics of antibody status.

Since long-COVID morbidity is not dissimilar from unrelated disease or pathogens, any clinician assessing such in the context of unconfirmed past infection might be deemed to be out to lunch. The imperative of a simple N antibody test is greater among older folks because their past infection rates are the lowest for adults (estimated at 70-75% cumulatively in Canada, for example) and older folks are more likely to possess morbidity that resembles COVID symptom sequelae yet is truly unrelated if infection did not occur.

Similarly, any adult person, particularly not older group, doggedly putting forward the logical fallacy that they have not been infected (we already know those subjective estimates fall short of reality) but claim to have extended vaccination-induced morbidity should have the nucleocapsid antibody assay in order to possibly disabuse them of the claim, depending on the N binary result, that vaccination alone fucked them over.

What he said. 💯 I couldn't have said it better myself if I was limited to 5 sentences.

Your insomnia might be from the virus from China, it might be from dietary changes, it might be from the pressures of the economy, or it might be from getting older.

Regardless, whether the insomnia is or isn't from a virus, diet, stress, or age, just learn to adapt to it.  Set a going to bed routine, waking up routine, and enjoy life.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Vegas_Millennial

[SirBillybob]

15 minutes ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

Regardless, whether the insomnia is or isn't from a virus, diet, stress, or age, just learn to adapt to it.  Set a going to bed routine, waking up routine, and enjoy life.

Right. There does not seem to be anything particular about the problem source being CoV infection or not, in terms of sleep disturbance management, unless one is really stuck on the etiology of insomnia and the knowing part might be psychologically helpful in some fashion, in turn possibly mitigating the disturbance. Otherwise, the management strategy transcends presumption versus verification. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by SirBillybob

[Guest]

On 9/27/2023 at 2:56 PM, Luv2play said:

I also think I have not had Covid altho my antibodies from 6 vaccinations would show a positive result. I live in a small town so had limited exposure to large populations. For over two years I had no colds or flu symptoms. Last winter I had a cold and self tested twice as negative for Covid.

So yes, I think I am among the minority who have not had it. I couldn't be bothered to go to any effort to do any fuether testing. What would it prove?

Well, I agree that living in rural Canada, you may be among the few who hasn't contracted the virus. You would typify the person who could have avoided the virus entirely (not just avoided symptoms due to immunization), especially if you don't go into town for entertainment. Is it getting about time to build your igloo for the long Canadian winters? 😄

[Luv2play]

13 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

Well, I agree that living in rural Canada, you may be among the few who hasn't contracted the virus. You would typify the person who could have avoided the virus entirely (not just avoided symptoms due to immunization), especially if you don't go into town for entertainment. Is it getting about time to build your igloo for the long Canadian winters? 😄

Most of my family including brothers, cousins, nephews and neices, their spouses have contracted the virus in the last three years but all through travel on airplanes to places like Alberta, Switzerland  and elsewhere. I haven't been on a plane since just before  the pandemic. 

I have frequently travelled to Montreal and Toronto in my own car and stayed in hotels which were all scrupulous in maintaining hygienic conditions. Wore masks as required and avoided bars and crowded restaurants but went to places where people were separated and ventilation was good. 

Only got intimate with providers who got vaccinated as I did. I admit there was luck involved too. Risk reduction but can never eliminate all risk.  

[Luv2play]

15 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Well, I agree that living in rural Canada, you may be among the few who hasn't contracted the virus. You would typify the person who could have avoided the virus entirely (not just avoided symptoms due to immunization), especially if you don't go into town for entertainment. Is it getting about time to build your igloo for the long Canadian winters? 😄

Since you take a morbid interest in our climate and weather you might be interested in knowing we are experiencing the nicest fall weather which is hard to distinguish from summer weather here. And the forecast is for sunny days and mid 20’s temperatures to continue as far as the eye can see. 
Meanwhile south of us NYC is drowning in rain today with states of emergency being declared in the city. Half a foot of rain in less than 24 hours.

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Luv2play said:

Since you take a morbid interest in our climate and weather you might be interested in knowing we are experiencing the nicest fall weather...

I'm obviously pulling your leg. I don't really believe Canadians live in igloos from October through April, having to get around by snowmobile. That being said, it's interesting that millions of refugees from Venezuela and elsewhere in South America risk their lives traveling thousands of miles to get to the US, leaving desperation in their countries. It's particularly risky sloshing across the Darien Gap, where they risk bandits, drowning, malaria, and dengue.

Yet only a tiny fraction choose to continue the relatively easy trek into Canada, across the completely unfenced border, although immigration prospects are better in Canada than in the US.

I don't think translating that sign into Spanish would discourage anyone else. One cannot deny the truth of the matter: most people would rather risk death and deportation than spend the rest of their lives in Canada... 😉

[Luv2play]

4 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

I'm obviously pulling your leg. I don't really believe Canadians live in igloos from October through April, having to get around by snowmobile. That being said, it's interesting that millions of refugees from Venezuela and elsewhere in South America risk their lives traveling thousands of miles to get to the US, leaving desperation in their countries. It's particularly risky sloshing across the Darien Gap, where they risk bandits, drowning, malaria, and dengue.

Yet only a tiny fraction choose to continue the relatively easy trek into Canada, across the completely unfenced border, although immigration prospects are better in Canada than in the US.

I don't think translating that sign into Spanish would discourage anyone else. One cannot deny the truth of the matter: most people would rather risk death and deportation than spend the rest of their lives in Canada... 😉

Canada in fact is taking in larger numbers of immigrants and refugees per capita than the U S. Over half a million last year I believe which would translate to over 5 million in the US. And the government is intending to get to 1 million a year. 

(I may be low on the current numbers).

[Marc in Calif]

30 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

I'm obviously pulling your leg. [You might see it that way, but your sarcasm and "leg pulling" are not at all "obvious."]

Yet only a tiny fraction choose to continue the relatively easy trek into Canada, across the completely unfenced border, although immigration prospects are better in Canada than in the US....

One cannot deny the truth of the matter: most people would rather risk death and deportation than spend the rest of their lives in Canada... 

24 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

Canada in fact is taking in larger numbers of immigrants and refugees per capita than the U S. Over half a million last year I believe which would translate to over 5 million in the US. And the government is intending to get to 1 million a year. 

Owned by the Canadian! 🎯 

Takedown!  🎯

Match point! 🎯

 

 

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

Canada in fact is taking in larger numbers of immigrants and refugees per capita than the U S. Over half a million last year I believe which would translate to over 5 million in the US. And the government is intending to get to 1 million a year. 

(I may be low on the current numbers).

Well, since the population of the US is almost 10 times that of Canada, the fact that Canada is taking more only per capita still means that the vast majority prefer death to the prospect of being refugees in Canada. 😄