Safe vs. bare

[KeepItReal]

Strafe,

 

I have heard all the fancy intellectual sounding equivocating arguments that amount to do as you please and live and let live. They have been around since the days aids was killing gay men. I would have been a baby then.

 

Yes i modulated the original conversation slightly to interject a poignant peripheral point. With all the intelligence within the gay community historically it has not been exercised when it came to sexual practices. I think the calamity of days gone by are my xitations for that assertion.

 

You proved my point precisely then added a whole bunch of fancy shiny well decorated pieces of nothing. We are not discussing heterosexual sex as no one on here is taking prep so they can slay the kitty kat of the vixen next door. Yes it is the mechanics of anal sex and the tears it creates that make it the most dangerous and the paryicipants most susceotible. In the grand scheme of things hiv is still "the big one" and is the only disease to have killed an entire segment of the population en masse. I am sure all those ppl who died on their death bed wished someone would have told them straight "protect your fuc*kin self" and they had listened!

As that great philosopher, Van Wilder said: "Don't be a fool - wrap your tool!"

[Strafe13]

Strafe,

 

I have heard all the fancy intellectual sounding equivocating arguments that amount to do as you please and live and let live. They have been around since the days aids was killing gay men. I would have been a baby then.

 

Yes i modulated the original conversation slightly to interject a poignant peripheral point. With all the intelligence within the gay community historically it has not been exercised when it came to sexual practices. I think the calamity of days gone by are my xitations for that assertion.

 

You proved my point precisely then added a whole bunch of fancy shiny well decorated pieces of nothing. We are not discussing heterosexual sex as no one on here is taking prep so they can slay the kitty kat of the vixen next door. Yes it is the mechanics of anal sex and the tears it creates that make it the most dangerous and the paryicipants most susceotible. In the grand scheme of things hiv is still "the big one" and is the only disease to have killed an entire segment of the population en masse. I am sure all those ppl who died on their death bed wished someone would have told them straight "protect your fuc*kin self" and they had listened!

 

You've pretty much missed the point then, and perhaps intentionally so. There are multiple safer sex options out there, notwithstanding your apparent discomfort with one of the most effective ones to come along in decades. Using PrEP, by definition, means that the users are protecting themselves against HIV.

 

The discussion of heterosexual HIV infections was important because it undermined your oversimplification about the relationship between anal sex and HIV transmission. It also highlighted that you're applying an unfair judgmental standard to gay men in a very paternalistic way. That's the essence of respectability politics.

 

The purportedly "poignant peripheral point" of yours to which I was referring was your declaration that condomless sex with sex workers should only be between HIV-positive guys who, according to you, put their own immediate pleasure above everything else. Instead of "poignant," it was patronizing, sex-negative, stigmatizing, and destructive of respectful discourse and the sense of community that this site seeks to foster. We can do better than that.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Strafe13

[hypothetically]

Uhmm just in to say anyone having bare sex with a professional sex worker is looney tunes. Thats all folks. The end.

 

Then we live in a Warner Bros. goddamn world, my friend....sorry to break it to you.

[Strafe13]

As that great philosopher, Van Wilder said: "Don't be a fool - wrap your tool!"

 

It's fine if that's your philosophy, but just make sure you wrap it for all sex acts, though.* Wrapping it for anal sex, but going raw for everything else isn't particularly effective in protecting against STI infections in general. It does minimize the risk of HIV infection, but if that's your only concern, then rather than throw stones at PrEP-compliant BBers, you should realize that you've elected to engage in conduct that shows a similar risk calculation. That's the main point that I and others were making.

 

*I'm using "you" and "yours" in the general sense, by the way. I'm not directing my post specifically at you, the individual.

[RealAvalon]

Then we live in a Warner Bros. goddamn world, my friend....sorry to break it to you.

With PrEP and hepatitis A/B inoculations a guy is good to go, except for chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis - which if one tests for regularly can be treated with anti-biotics - with or without a condom. The only completely 'safe' sex, is no sex. I'm not advocating no sex. Just for everyone to be informed of the various risks and what to do about them.

Edited November 24, 2019 by RealAvalon

[hypothetically]

With PrEP and hepatitis A/B/C inoculations you're good to go, except for chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis - which if you test regularly can be treated with anti-biotics - with or without a condom. The only completely 'safe' sex, is no sex. I'm not advocating no sex. Just be informed of the various risks and what to do about them.

 

I’m an escort who gets checked like clockwork, I assure you, I don’t need the education. lol. I just think it’s interesting how comments are made, similar to that of @studchaser insinuating having unprotected sex with a sex worker is “Looney Toons” (I assume he means high risk). Having sex with ANYONE is high risk. If anything, the sex workers, at least in the cities I work in are the ones prioritizing their health, getting tested regularly, are aware of their statuses, etc. Cities are even adapting programs specifically for escorts to ensure they are squared away in these areas.

 

It is the irresponsible client who is not taking responsibility for his own health. An escort takes more risk sleeping with a client who is not tested regularly than a client does sleeping with an escort who is. I detest that this always fall on the escort. When the situation is usually a client asking us “are you on PrEP,” not because he is also, but because he wants safety in verbalization, only. It is irresponsible, as are statements placing the blame on us, while refusing to take accountability for one’s own high risk decisions. And it happens all the time.

 

“But I have a wife.” (Women carry STI’s also, and what it your wife is doing what you’re doing?)

“My other provider was tested recently.” (But were you?)

“Had sex recently but we didn’t finish.”

“I don’t do this often, we’re good.”

“Are you clean?” (Clean should never be used in a sexual context, it insinuates that persons living with HIV are dirty)

Etc., etc.

 

The most blatant ignorance I face on a day-to-day basis comes from the mouth of clients, not other escorts.

Edited November 24, 2019 by hypothetically

[marylander1940]

I’m an escort who gets checked like clockwork, I assure you, I don’t need the education. lol. I just think it’s interesting how comments are made, similar to that of @studchaser insinuating having unprotected sex with a sex worker is “Looney Toons” (I assume he means high risk). Having sex with ANYONE is high risk. If anything, the sex workers, at least in the cities I work in are the ones prioritizing their health, getting tested regularly, are aware of their statuses, etc. Cities are even adapting programs specifically for escorts to ensure they are squared away in these areas.

 

It is the irresponsible client who is not taking responsibility for his own health. An escort takes more risk sleeping with a client who is not tested regularly than a client does sleeping with an escort who is. I detest that this always fall on the escort. When the situation is usually a client asking us “are you on PrEP,” not because he is also, but because he wants safety in verbalization, only. It is irresponsible. And it happens all the time.

 

An escort has more sex than a client, therefore he takes more chances sleeping with more guys.

 

@studchaser was simply using a metaphor.

 

We shouldn't turn this into they versus us! We're all in the same boat whether we have sex once a month or on a daily basis, as pointed before in this thread the only safe sex is no sex.

 

PrEP (and to a minor point OraQuick home testing) have changed the game yet they're not 100% effective and we must get tested for other diseases that may not have symptoms and are treatable with antibiotics.

[+ oldNbusted]

IIt is the irresponsible client who is not taking responsibility for his own health. An escort takes more risk sleeping with a client who is not tested regularly than a client does sleeping with an escort who is. I detest that this always fall on the escort. When the situation is usually a client asking us “are you on PrEP,” not because he is also, but because he wants safety in verbalization, only. It is irresponsible, as are statements placing the blame on us, while refusing to take accountability for one’s own high risk decisions. And it happens all the time.

 

I call it outsourcing responsibility, and there are people who are thinking that if everyone else is practicing safer sex, when they elect to have a totally uninhibited encounter, if anything bad does happen, it wasn't their fault.

[hypothetically]

I call it outsourcing responsibility, and there are people who are thinking that if everyone else is practicing safer sex, when they elect to have a totally uninhibited encounter, if anything bad does happen, it wasn't their fault.

 

Reckless, period.

[MrMattBig]

I call it outsourcing responsibility,

Thank you for giving me my new favorite term to address some in a sarcastic tone.

I am forever in your debt.?

[RealAvalon]

I’m an escort who gets checked like clockwork, I assure you, I don’t need the education. lol.

My comment was meant to be general, and no one in particular. I've clarified it.

Edited November 24, 2019 by RealAvalon

[DallasClient]

With PrEP and hepatitis A/B/C inoculations a guy is good to go, except for chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis - which if one tests for regularly can be treated with anti-biotics - with or without a condom. The only completely 'safe' sex, is no sex. I'm not advocating no sex. Just for everyone to be informed of the various risks and what to do about them.

 

I just wanted to clarify - no vaccine for Hep C.

[RealAvalon]

I just wanted to clarify - no vaccine for Hep C.

True. There is research going on with an expected vaccine in the works - but there is nothing on the market currently.

[DallasClient]

Also if anyone does get something, communication is key and should not be anything to worry about using links like the one below:

 

https://www.stdcheck.com/anonymous-notification.php

[LivingnLA]

With PrEP and hepatitis A/B/C inoculations a guy is good to go, except for chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis - which if one tests for regularly can be treated with anti-biotics - with or without a condom. The only completely 'safe' sex, is no sex. I'm not advocating no sex. Just for everyone to be informed of the various risks and what to do about them.

 

There is no vaccine for HepC. Research has been going on for years. Don't expect one any time soon.

 

It's irresponsible to say gonorrhea is treatable since there are treatment resistant strains and the CDC has expressed concern about gonorrhea becoming fully resistant to known treatments. Treatment resistant strains of syphilis and chlamydia are out there too but not widespread yet.

 

Let's hope the chlamydia vaccine proves to be effective and comes to market soon.

[RealAvalon]

There is no vaccine for HepC. Research has been going on for years. Don't expect one any time soon.

 

It's irresponsible to say gonorrhea is treatable since there are treatment resistant strains and the CDC has expressed concern about gonorrhea becoming fully resistant to known treatments. Treatment resistant strains of syphilis and chlamydia are out there too but not widespread yet.

 

Let's hope the chlamydia vaccine proves to be effective and comes to market soon.

Yes, we agree, there is nothing on the market yet. (There are current treatments but not a vaccine.)

 

What are you suggesting?

[leanbtm]

There is no vaccine for HepC. Research has been going on for years. Don't expect one any time soon.

 

It's irresponsible to say gonorrhea is treatable since there are treatment resistant strains and the CDC has expressed concern about gonorrhea becoming fully resistant to known treatments. Treatment resistant strains of syphilis and chlamydia are out there too but not widespread yet.

 

Let's hope the chlamydia vaccine proves to be effective and comes to market soon.

 

 

Plus truvada resistant strains of hiv have been recorded.

Also "blips" i.e. Those times when a viral load becomes detectable between periods of undetectability: happens to many, if not most, hiv positive people on drug therapy. Much like when the hiv test was first developed and you were only negative as of the day of your last test, or really a few weeks before given the incubation period and the slowness of the test back in those days, so too with "undetectable" you are only undetectable as of the date of your last labs. To further compound the situation, labs are supposed to be done every 3-4 months, so to lay a framework you can have the following results over a year or so : period 1 undetectable, period 2 undetectable, period three detectable, period 4 undetectable . Now it is very possible that between period 1 and period 2 labs a viral load would become detectable then revert to undetectable by the time of the period 2 labs and there would be no way of knowing that sequence of events.

PREP without condoms is still a gamble.

[LivingnLA]

Yes, we agree, there is nothing on the market yet. (There are current treatments but not a vaccine.)

 

What are you suggesting?

 

I'm not suggesting anything beyond what I said above. I believe it's risky to suggest chlamydia, gonorrhea, and syphilis are treatable when there are resistant strains that make treatment difficult and, predominantly because of condomless sex, the probability of fully resistant strains increases every year. As responsible adults we should be doing what we can to reduce that probability and that means correct and consistent use of condoms for oral, anal, and vaginal sex outside of trustworthy exclusive relationships. Like appropriate vaccine use, this is a public health issue that affects all of us. And to be clear, I am not blaming professional escorts because many of them are far more on top of these issues than most clients. That's part of what makes them professionals. There are plenty of clients and escorts who are being reckless and irresponsible. The optimist in me hopes it's an issue of education given how poor sex education is in America, which is why I try to share current information.

[LivingnLA]

Plus truvada resistant strains of hiv have been recorded.

Also "blips" i.e. Those times when a viral load becomes detectable between periods of undetectability: happens to many, if not most, hiv positive people on drug therapy. Much like when the hiv test was first developed and you were only negative as of the day of your last test, or really a few weeks before given the incubation period and the slowness of the test back in those days, so too with "undetectable" you are only undetectable as of the date of your last labs. To further compound the situation, labs are supposed to be done every 3-4 months, so to lay a framework you can have the following results over a year or so : period 1 undetectable, period 2 undetectable, period three detectable, period 4 undetectable . Now it is very possible that between period 1 and period 2 labs a viral load would become detectable then revert to undetectable by the time of the period 2 labs and there would be no way of knowing that sequence of events.

PREP without condoms is still a gamble.

 

Yes, viral load blips are common. According to one study, blips were around 10% and associated with an increased risk of virologic failure. Another recent study suggests more intense monitoring since blips seem to be a precursor to virologic failure.

[+ Keith30309]

There've been lots of opinions expressed in the thread thusfar.

I’m curious: for those who do not regularly use a condom does your practice change if your client/escort informs you they are positive undetectable?

[RealAvalon]

As responsible adults we should be doing what we can to reduce that probability and that means correct and consistent use of condoms for oral, anal, and vaginal sex outside of trustworthy exclusive relationships.

Sounds like a suggestion.

[adventurous old guy]

wow. Think this thread is thought provoking -- have been mulling on it all weekend -- and I truly appreciate all the points of view offered, especially those that emphasize avoiding blaming. But it IS giving me the creeps. Especially this point -- if I'm going to be responsible for whatever risks I choose to take, does that responsibility entail informing other sex partners that we hire escorts. Is that a distinct risk factor that should be disclosed, especially if we know the escorts we hire offer bareback services?

[DallasClient]

There've been lots of opinions expressed in the thread thusfar.

I’m curious: for those who do not regularly use a condom does your practice change if your client/escort informs you they are positive undetectable?

 

No. I'm on PrEP. Also, if they knew, they were on meds and undetectable. That, along with PrEP that I know I take regularly, is good enough for me. I had to use condoms thru the 80s and 90s and beyond. I want to go bare with PrEP. However, it's discussed before I hook up and has to be ok with them as well.

 

The "problem" that I also educate younger dudes on is the person who recently got infected and doesn't know it. His viral load can be quite high in the early stages and very contagious.

[+ sniper]

I just get the impression a lot of people seem to think most guys are on PreP, which the stats do not bear out at all. So they're not even having the conversation.

[DallasClient]

I just get the impression a lot of people seem to think most guys are on PreP, which the stats do not bear out at all. So they're not even having the conversation.

 

Definitely most guys are not on PrEP. I always try and get the word out about it when I'm with a new guy. The places that give it out for free usually don't have the advertisement or marketing funds.