Safe vs. bare

[adventurous old guy]

If negative and on PrEP, how's that?

 

And if those with HIV are on meds, even better. They medically cannot pass the virus... Period.

 

People need to educate themselves before making antiquated proclamations.

Hmmm, following the content and tone of this thread with interest. Benjamin, with respect -- "antiquated" strikes me as a pretty harsh characterization of concerns with the risks of raw sex. Yes, the risk of death from condom-free sex may be greatly mitigated, but they still protect against multiple STDs, many of which are becoming increasingly antibiotic resistant, therefor potentially life-threatening. https://www.cdc.gov/drugresistance/biggest-threats.html

 

However, I see your point. And its pertinent to me because I'm in an intense conversation with a 30ish friend who thinks it's irresponsible of sexually active men not to go on PrEP and rely on condoms to manage risk of getting or transmitting HIV. He argues that PrEP is easily accessible, condoms can break and consistent condom use is too easily impaired by a couple of cocktails or other real time factors. He would never trust that someone who says they always use condoms is telling the truth. For me, as a 60+ person who started having sex with men in 1977 just as the HIV pandemic was starting, I'm deeply socialized to associate condom use as death prevention. Plus condom reliance has worked for me for 40+ years, averaging maybe 20 sex partners a year, most of them escorts. The prospect of shifting from condom use to relying on a pill feels dangerous. I realize that's a bias, but I'm experiencing it as a mindfuck. Like losing religion.

 

Bottom line, I appreciate the dialogue and the chance to share this perspective and consider my own embedded biases. Also, again to Benjamin's point, risk is dynamic -- in the Covid environment there appears to be more risk of death or serious illness from kissing a new person than from having sex with one.

 

AOG

Edited December 14, 2020 by adventurous old guy

[marylander1940]

Practices are changing, at least in Berlin where I do most of my hiring.

In the past an escort who refused to wear a condom was rare. Those that offered bare charged more for it. Now virtually every escort will do bare and a disconcertingly large number refuse dates when condoms are required. I now feel that insisting on a condom greatly reduces the number of available escorts and disappoints most of the others. The arguments are "I'm negative and on prep" and "I'm undetectable."

The change seems to have accelerated after Prep became available through the government health insurance plans. Those willing to wear condoms are mostly from Latin America or southern or eastern Europe.

What do you all encounter in the US and what do you do?

(please, I am not asking WHY you do it, just WHAT you do)

 

Before PrEP having sex without a condom was an act of madness only similar to playing Russian roulette.

 

PrEP has certainly changed things, I've always assume there would be a vaccine or a cure but I guess treating folks who have it and those who don't want to catch is more profitable.

 

Agreed about what you say on escorts from other parts of the world. I know an escort from Uruguay who used to get tested at Whitman Walker Arlington VA. Every time the conversation was in Spanish: "do the right thing", "don't ever trust anybody", "be responsible", "wear a condom" but in English it had a different tone "no big deal if you're positive", "now it's like having diabetes", etc.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

Benjamin, with respect -- "antiquated" strikes me as a pretty harsh

 

Let's be frank... Harsh would be calling someone a fucking moron.

 

To me, antiquated is how you describe someone who thinks that life is only black & white. That's exactly how the poster I responded to replied. He said it's either life or death, which as we all know isn't true anymore. Now, thanks to medication, it's multiple shades of grey.

 

Do I think we still need to use our brain before we fuck? Of course. Do I reprimand those who exclusively fuck bareback? No. Same goes for those who always use a condom. It's about personal comfort level. You do you.

 

What I don't buy into is shaming people into groupthink.

 

We have an entire older generation who's having a very hard time accepting that the medical landscape has changed and continues to change. While there's no silver bullet (yet), we're getting there and that's an exciting prospect.

[Luv2play]

Let's be frank... Harsh would be calling someone a fucking moron.

 

To me, antiquated is how you describe someone who thinks that life is only black & white. That's exactly how the poster I responded to replied. He said it's either life or death, which as we all know isn't true anymore. Now, thanks to medication, it's multiple shades of grey.

 

Do I think we still need to use our brain before we fuck? Of course. Do I reprimand those who exclusively fuck bareback? No. Same goes for those who always use a condom. It's about personal comfort level. You do you.

 

What I don't buy into is shaming people into groupthink.

 

We have an entire older generation who's having a very hard time accepting that the medical landscape has changed and continues to change. While there's no silver bullet (yet), we're getting there and that's an exciting prospect.

Benjamin, that was very well put. I’m one older guy who has adjusted his thinking on this subject.

[+ Lucky]

My doctor told me that a HIV Positive person who is on meds has about a 1 in 300,000 chance of infecting (with HIV) someone by barebacking.

[Trick]

I want my providers to use condoms. But recently, more and more of them have claimed that condoms kill their erections. What is this bottom to do?

[+ Lucky]

I want my providers to use condoms. But recently, more and more of them have claimed that condoms kill their erections. What is this bottom to do?

You insist on a condom. Give the guy some Viagra.

[+ dupontversDC]

The whole, there are other antibiotic resistant STIs, and therefore you should use condoms is a generally speaking, a joke.

 

Do you use condoms for oral? If not, there's basically nothing the condom is protecting you from that you aren't defeating by your reckless barebacking of a cock with your mouth.

[+ Lucky]

The whole, there are other antibiotic resistant STIs, and therefore you should use condoms is a generally speaking, a joke.

 

Do you use condoms for oral? If not, there's basically nothing the condom is protecting you from that you aren't defeating by your reckless barebacking of a cock with your mouth.

Really, @dupontversDC? I disagree. Your stomach acids kill many, many germs, including, I am told, HIV. Oral sex is safer than unprotected sex elsewhere.

[+ dupontversDC]

A full STI battery of tests include swabbing the back of you throat .... you can have gonorrhea in your eyes, your throat, etc.

 

So, if you do oral without a condom, you are barebacking, and according to some in this thread -- you're being reckless.

[+ dupontversDC]

Really, @dupontversDC? I disagree. Your stomach acids kill many, many germs, including, I am told, HIV. Oral sex is safer than unprotected sex elsewhere.

 

PREP or medicated and undetectable without a condom is not unprotected sex. That's the point.

 

But for the "it's my way or the highway" crowd.....facts don't matter. Just like with the Orange Man.

[Maximiliam]

I always use condoms for anal sex and I don't do oral or kiss escort that fuck bare or have ask on their profile . I only do oral with providers that show me their results and I inspect their mouth and dick before I touch or put my mouth on it

[Quincy_7]

Do you need to be on prep if you use condoms? I've been told before by a doctor that the risk of HIV transmission from oral is essentially zero even with cum.

[Quincy_7]

Do you need to be on prep if you use condoms? I've been told before by a doctor that the risk of HIV transmission from oral is essentially zero even with cum.

[KeepItReal]

Do you need to be on prep if you use condoms? I've been told before by a doctor that the risk of HIV transmission from oral is essentially zero even with cum.

Condoms are very effective in preventing STDs during penetration. Something like 98% effective against most, but keep in mind that herpes, genital warts and syphilis can be spread from skin-to-skin contact.

 

As for oral sex, that really depends on the STD in question. STDs like chlamydia, herpes, gonorrhea, syphilis and HPV can all be transmitted orally, meaning they can pass from one person's mouth to their partner's genitals or anus, or vice versa. In general, there is little to no risk of getting or transmitting HIV from oral sex. Theoretically, transmission of HIV is possible if an HIV-positive man ejaculates in his partner's mouth during oral sex (usually due to a cut or scrape in the mouth). However, the risk is still very low, and much lower than with anal or vaginal sex. ?

 

For my own safety and health, as well as those of my companions I always use condoms for penetration and get tested every couple of months for STDs. One of my biggest concerns with the younglings I meet is that they don't know their status.

 

(I am not a medical professional, just an informed slut!)

 

[KeepItReal]

Do you need to be on prep if you use condoms? I've been told before by a doctor that the risk of HIV transmission from oral is essentially zero even with cum.

Condoms are very effective in preventing STDs during penetration. Something like 98% effective against most, but keep in mind that herpes, genital warts and syphilis can be spread from skin-to-skin contact.

 

As for oral sex, that really depends on the STD in question. STDs like chlamydia, herpes, gonorrhea, syphilis and HPV can all be transmitted orally, meaning they can pass from one person's mouth to their partner's genitals or anus, or vice versa. In general, there is little to no risk of getting or transmitting HIV from oral sex. Theoretically, transmission of HIV is possible if an HIV-positive man ejaculates in his partner's mouth during oral sex (usually due to a cut or scrape in the mouth). However, the risk is still very low, and much lower than with anal or vaginal sex. ?

 

For my own safety and health, as well as those of my companions I always use condoms for penetration and get tested every couple of months for STDs. One of my biggest concerns with the younglings I meet is that they don't know their status.

 

(I am not a medical professional, just an informed slut!)

 

[marylander1940]

This thread would be more appropriately named Life or Death.

 

For many years it was... but PrEP as pointed by @Benjamin_Nicholas has changed the game.

 

Now BB is not playing the Russian roulette like it was in the 80s, 90's and first decades of the XXI century.

 

 

Do you need to be on prep if you use condoms? I've been told before by a doctor that the risk of HIV transmission from oral is essentially zero even with cum.

 

Only if you want to prevent other easily treatable STDs. Unfortunately the use of PrEP has increased the cases of gonorrhea, chlamydia, etc. You can also catch those diseases giving or getting and I've always refused to give/get head wearing a condom.

[marylander1940]

This thread would be more appropriately named Life or Death.

 

For many years it was... but PrEP as pointed by @Benjamin_Nicholas has changed the game.

 

Now BB is not playing the Russian roulette like it was in the 80s, 90's and first decades of the XXI century.

 

 

Do you need to be on prep if you use condoms? I've been told before by a doctor that the risk of HIV transmission from oral is essentially zero even with cum.

 

Only if you want to prevent other easily treatable STDs. Unfortunately the use of PrEP has increased the cases of gonorrhea, chlamydia, etc. You can also catch those diseases giving or getting and I've always refused to give/get head wearing a condom.

[Quincy_7]

One of my biggest concerns with the younglings I meet is that they don't know their status.

 

My view has always been to just use a condom because you can't naively believe what someone tells you their status is.

[Quincy_7]

One of my biggest concerns with the younglings I meet is that they don't know their status.

 

My view has always been to just use a condom because you can't naively believe what someone tells you their status is.

[marylander1940]

I want my providers to use condoms. But recently, more and more of them have claimed that condoms kill their erections. What is this bottom to do?

 

A frequent poster offered Cutlerx an extra 100 for him to use a condom during their date and he refused to do such a thing... I remember a time when escorts were offered 100 to do it BB.

 

You insist on a condom. Give the guy some Viagra.

 

Agreed!

 

Most escorts take Viagra anyways. I do agree it's easier for them and us to keep it up if it's BB.

 

My view has always been to just use a condom because you can't naively believe what someone tells you their status is.

 

Great point but now a bottom can also be on PrEP even if the top isn't, forgets to takes his daily pills, or simply lies about it.

 

PrEP has changed things!

[marylander1940]

I want my providers to use condoms. But recently, more and more of them have claimed that condoms kill their erections. What is this bottom to do?

 

A frequent poster offered Cutlerx an extra 100 for him to use a condom during their date and he refused to do such a thing... I remember a time when escorts were offered 100 to do it BB.

 

You insist on a condom. Give the guy some Viagra.

 

Agreed!

 

Most escorts take Viagra anyways. I do agree it's easier for them and us to keep it up if it's BB.

 

My view has always been to just use a condom because you can't naively believe what someone tells you their status is.

 

Great point but now a bottom can also be on PrEP even if the top isn't, forgets to takes his daily pills, or simply lies about it.

 

PrEP has changed things!

[CuriousByNature]

Forgive my ignorance about probability math and my somewhat paranoid concern about illnesses, but when it says that PreP is up to 99% effective, doesn't that mean that for every 100 people on PreP who are intimate without a condom with an HIV+ detectable person, at least one person will contract the virus? I wonder what the probability figure is if PreP and a condom are used together? I know I sound completely OCD and I acknowledge life is full of risks, but these are things that pop into my mind ?

[CuriousByNature]

Forgive my ignorance about probability math and my somewhat paranoid concern about illnesses, but when it says that PreP is up to 99% effective, doesn't that mean that for every 100 people on PreP who are intimate without a condom with an HIV+ detectable person, at least one person will contract the virus? I wonder what the probability figure is if PreP and a condom are used together? I know I sound completely OCD and I acknowledge life is full of risks, but these are things that pop into my mind ?

[+ sniper]

My doctor told me that a HIV Positive person who is on meds has about a 1 in 300,000 chance of infecting (with HIV) someone by barebacking.

That's assuming they are dutifully taking their pills every single day. The vast majority of people on any daily pill regimen miss some number of pills. Yeah,if they're missing one or two a month likely no change to that stat. But what if they're traveling and forgot their pills and it's been a week? How soon do you become infectious again?

This happens with ANY daily regimen, BTW not just HIV. I take a cholesterol med that I fully intend to take every day and probably on average once a week I forget. Given HIV isn't something where you immediately feel worse upon a skipped dose, it's unlikely that compliance is higher than average.