DWnyc

Totally fine for a provider to have a model he prefers. No one’s business but his to set that, though he should perhaps think of if it’s the best for his earnings potential (for his own sake) rather than see it as a matter of personal worth if people don’t accept those conditions when expressing interest. Expecting the world to change to be the way one wishes it to be is a complete waste of time. Maybe people do read these conditions but don’t take them as inflexible. There is a belief among many potential clients that the business model includes a “I’ll do anything you want” mindset among providers and some are indeed like that. If a potential client likes the look of someone, or that provider is close by or some other reason for still wanting to engage, the potential client may still see if there’s a way to make this work. it doesn’t have to be about feeling disrespected or cause such angst which ultimately takes time away from other productive things. Prroviders should remember that reputations (and therefore earnings) can be made and broken on this kind of stuff. Think of the comments here, on RM and in other places on (about no one in particular) “he’s rude, arrogant” etc as well as worse “vindictive, threatening …” etc. about a provider following the tone of comms. Not letting all this get under one’s skin would help preventing that issue.

And if you (ie @Jarrod_Uncut) tell a hookup “the next time we have fun you have to engage me as an escort” good luck having non client/provider relationships. If you’re not saying that but just saying “help me out with my gas for a long drive to you” then this is not what is being discuweed in this topic, I have sympathy for what i assume is your financial situation … but I would never revisit a date/hookup who framed things in the way you have after an initial encounter that was clearly not a provider/client one.

exactly

I usually make appointments day of and often last minute. Partly because of this issue you mention of providers often canceling (I get it … I made a booking for one hour and someone else wants you for more than that … ). Which is another reason I will never give into deposits. Partly because I don’t know my own schedule that far in advance. Or my mood, as wanting to hire is often an impulsive choice. I read on here how some providers can’t deal with that or find it disrespectful etc. Not the ones I end up seeing, and maybe it’s self selection where the ones who know I’m looking for a few hours later and don’t like that don’t agree or respond. But plenty do, so this is not a universally held peeve among providers.

Don’t know what line of work you’re in but I’d say you’re an outlier. And certainly in @Jarrod_Uncut’s field having a phone and constantly checking mails is kind of part of the MO. I feel like it’s a requirement to tell providers not to keep checking during a session, that’s how much they are looking at their handheld devices (err… phones, to be precise).

I get all sorts of messages from providers loaded with proof they weren’t listening / reading in our recent interaction. Might be prior to first booking, or a repeat, or when they’re trying to proactively Re-engage after I’ve walked away because something didn’t work for me, or because they didn’t get back in a timely fashion after my last comm. These errors or forgotten details may apply to my availability, location, can I host, how long am I visiting, what am I looking for etc etc etc. And maybe they haven’t forgotten, they’re seeing if anything has changed. I never take it personally. I try and empathize and assume they are fielding numerous queries and may have lost track of an individual’s details, rather like a doctor or professor who can’t remember their patients or student but that is less likely the other way around. And just as I may be speaking with numerous providers evaluating my options, they may be doing the same with potential clients: And I don’t let any of this stuff get to me even though my time is valuable, just as theirs is. The few extra minutes (and not even that usually) it may take to reply with a correction if I am bothered to do so (and often I am not) are worth it because the benefits of engaging in the hobby overall are greater than these annoyances. You shouldn’t let this stuff get to you either, @Jarrod_Uncut

Are we actually debating the same thing? I’m saying I don’t negotiate unless invited to by a provider, you say you never accuse a provider of gouging you. They don’t seem contradictory or related. Similarly you say let’s find a way to ensure no one walks away feeling taken advantage of … and I say I’ll only negotiate if a provider invites me to negotiate, and will only hire him if we agree on terms acceptable to him, so how am I taking advantage of him? I read this exchange as one of us saying “I only go out on a date if they accept my offer to go out on a date with me …” while The other says “I don’t force people to endure harassment or violence …” And this business about the rate being the worth of a human being … I don’t see it that way. If tomorrow the provider gets a scar on his face because of an accident, or he starts losing his hair, or putting on weight … does his worth as a human being change? His rate likely will.

Sure and maybe that will also bring out some data on regional trends and variation by type of provider and service, though I reserve judgement on how scientific everything will be (while no doubt fascinating). At the end of the day this isn’t an issue about data. I believe what triggered the OP was what he felt was rude, tone, words, all being disrespectful etc and that’s about the character and personality of both those dishing it out and those reacting. If we all tried to be nicer to each other (sounds corny but it’s true) and also more thick/skinned and recognized the realities of what it can take to get things done, that might make all these discussions on ifnpeople negotiate, is it tacky or not etc rather moot.

My personal experience is different on the “most are not” issue. I would place it more at 50% over the last year. But we can agree to disagree, and as I’ve caveated with every post I’ve made on this, I’ll repeat I’ve never initiated a negotiation with a provider, and i’m Including the times a provider has wanted to keep negotiating while I have lost interest. I’ve never led anyone down the path of negotiation just for fun, it has always been out of politeness and curiosity, and the minute I’ve felt this won’t work I’ve ended the conversation out of respect for their time (and mine) and so as not to set false expectations. It may be an issue of sample set or subset of the market or a peculiarity oF my geography (Boston down to DC including New York). i’m just trying to understand how our perspectives could be so different (on the prevalence of providers being open to negotiate, not the issue of if it’s tacky etc or not). I’ll add the gentlemen I’m speaking about are all from RM so I’m not including those who eg have hit me up on dating sites or on the subway (it’s a thing …), I’m very mindful of each new hire so I check out their reviews on the site and on here including DM with people who’ve engaged them. Don’t think I’ve ever engaged someone who didn’t have at least one credible positive review. These aren’t guys from the bottom of the barrel by any means and I would say they are typically mid price in my market with some at the premium end.

We can agree, disagree, disrespect, admire etc each other for our positions. Doesn’t sound like anyone is changing anyone else’s opinions on this but it’s been interesting hearing some views I hadn’t considered even if I find them surprising or disagree. The bottom line, literally, is that negotiation will be a part of this business for the foreseeable future and maybe always. Regardless of if some find it tacky, abusive, an affront to a human being’s worth etc. It takes two to negotiate with resolution. Neither a client or a provider is putting a gun to the other’s head and either can walk away at any time if the situation is offensive enough to outweigh business sense.

With due respect how on earth do you know for a fact that “no one” ever feels slighted? How do you know you are not spoken of in a way that may surprise you behind your back? Yours truly, Fellow New Yorker

I’ve been in more than one situation where I’ve done a favor for someone, eg lent or even given money, or helped them in kind, eg place to stay for a while or got them a job or internship. And never with the expectation of favors or even a relationship in return (though sometimes I may have had a crush). Sometimes explicitly, and sometimes more subtly including where I mostly missed obvious signals, I was offered an opportunity to be intimate in return. Does that count? Getting emotionally messed up from the first and only time I acted on it I made it a rule never to go down that route again.

I mostly agree but have difficulty with this last point. Terms like “prevailing price” and “below market” imply these metrics exist and are known to the two parties in the negotiation. I don’t think that’s the case in the provider industry. I’m not comparing the premium guys whether delusional porn stars or actual quality experienced professionals with the tweaked guys hovering outside the Greyhound Terminal. Nor am I comparing those clients who show as much grace and respect as they can muster with those who negotiate rudely on everything as a knee jerk response to any opening offer or stated price. But as we head into a potential global recession, I expect to see more negotiating in every industry including this one, and if the preference is really less volume and maintaining quoted prices wherever they come from, I’d say fine, but only if the end profit for providers was the same (or more). Im just not sure it always is.

We can respectfully disagree. I negotiate contracts also. Mostly with service providers, ranging from huge multinationals where my small firm doesn’t move the needle, to sole practioners, who have put their life and soul into building their business and where acquiring and maintaining our account can be critical. As a cofounder of my firm I understand the idea of valuing one’s worth and not being bullied by those writing the checks, but I also can’t leave money on the table beyond a point. I provide the smaller and sole practioners much more grace on this but I also have fiduciary obligations. I have heard more times than I can recall from small or sole practioners in my day job, and providers in the world we are discussing here, something on the lines of “rather than walking away when my first offer didn’t work, I just wish you had spoken to me and I’m sure we could have come to an arrangement”. That of course implies I’m reasonable and fair and wouldn’t push for a negotiation that would be impossible or uncomfortable. But it does mean that if the initial terms don’t work for me, and I walk away for fear of being “disrespectful” or “tacky” I may be depriving these guys the chance to earn their living, and that seems to me to be a crime in itself. If it still doesn’t work for them or me even after respectful conversations where they are equal participants, they totally have the right to walk away just as I do. If they or I feel that even having such a conversation is futile, or a waste of time and resources, we shouldn’t have it. I’ll reiterate that I personally have never initiated a negotiation with a provider, and I always tip unless I feel there is a specific reason not to, and I’d rather hire less than push for arrangements where a provider feels resentment. Im just surprised that the discussion has moved to the point where even accepting a provider’s invitation to revisit price is somehow offensive.

For the record please note my valiant efforts not to chime in with a smart comment here … 😉

One can aim for a price based on one’s costs and profit target. But what one will actually receive is not the same thing, and if that’s lower, those cost inputs or the profit target need revisiting. And per @dbar123‘s framing, if 19 out of 20 say prices are too high we should also remember there is no collusion between these folks providing feedback - there simply isn’t the means or desire.

Same issue I believe with using, buying and selling certain other things on those sites. A lot of people post very obviously … only a few seem to get caught but those that do are pretty much done on there unless they get new phone numbers and devices.

But if the provider himself is inviting you to negotiate by not ending the conversation, it can’t be binding, and for the same reason as you state, why deprive him of a shot at improving his economics? Walking away leaving his respect and worth (apparently) unchallenged but zero dollars in his pocket may not be what the provider actually wants particularly if he’s the one initiating the negotiation. And of course if the provider does prefer zero dollars for whatever reason, that’s totally his prerogative.

Why do you “know” it’s “not right” and “you shouldn’t”? As @nate_sf says you don’t have to do this even if you think everyone else is. And yoU don’t need to feel like “trash” for not having experienced it. Having said that, maybe exploring your reasons for thinking it’s not right and that you shouldn’t is a a necessary step before you engage with a provider on this, to avoid a wasted session or something that ends up being unpleasant for you.

Exactly. Once we veer away from from looking at this through the lens of capitalism, market rates, sales pitches that don’t yield a 100% success rate … and start using words like “disrespect” and “insulting” …we need to think about what’s hugely insulting and disrespectful to clients as well.

If you explain this to a provider when inquiring about an appointment and they’re willing to take you on, I think they can be helpful. Some may think you’re role playing and trying to act innocent / “first time fantasy” etc but so what (unless they assume part of your fantasy is going from zero to a hundred in a few mins, the only thing I’d advise you to be wary of). So I’d advise you to go with someone you like based on their profile and take it from there. Ask lots of questions in the session, in a way that might be uncomfortable in a non provider environment. Its actually a good way to cross some thresholds without the pressure of “real people” and their reactions. You may even want to try bottoming in a safe environment to test your assumption. Good luck.

I don’t know if RM has a policy against putting Twitter ids on … because I see a lot of codewords and formatting to put them in a provider’s profile. When it’s there if I have any interest in the provider I like checking their Twitter pages out (though don’t interact with them there) as there are usually a lot of videos, and more of a sense of who these folks are.

This topic comes up frequently on this forum. I’m one of the few who consistently argues that there is a racism problem and specifically when it comes to provider / client interaction, usually before some others get uncomfortable if not already denying it. I can be an optimist on this if I choose, and that’s partly idealism but also based on experience. I, however, am not denying you your views or experience.

Fast forward from the “should providers be able to request a photo” discussion and I’ve had at least two request a video call prior to meeting

I know at least one provider who claims he gets the highest share of his clients from Twitter