Agreed Plans Go Wrong?

[MscleLovr]

Gentlemen, I need your help.

 

The situation is that I'm on a long holiday. Visiting me from my home city is a goodlooking, well-muscled guy (25) with whom I get on well sexually and socially. We've had a couple of "dates" before. He's well-mannered and well-travelled, and he's popular and hard-working. Before he arranged to join me, I communicated clearly my desires, which are not being met: all I get is excuses.

 

The background is that when he learned I was going to be here (Rio de Janeiro), he told me he'd always wanted to see Rio and pleasantly asked why I hadn't suggested he travel with me. I politely replied that tho I enjoy his company very much, there are a lot of goodlooking men here and the cost of hiring them is much lower than what he charges. He then said he would like to visit me for 4 days, and he offered to lower his rate to $500 per day. I agreed to pay him $2000 and pay all costs here, but he would arrange and pay his own airfare. This was all agreed by email.

 

Also, I outlined what I like to do socially and what sightseeing we might do. And just so we were completely clear, I also set out in the emails that I like to have sex 3x a day...that I expected him to climax as well...and tho he knows what I like, I reiterated what I enjoy doing and having done to me.

 

He arrived yesterday. After meeting him at the airport and bringing him to the (very good) hotel, he showered alone and said he preferred to go out. I agreed, but later before dinner I suggested we spend some time in bed and he said he wasn't in the mood (having been working a lot recently). When we came home after dinner, he announced he was horny for me but too tired, so we kissed and cuddled. This morning, on waking, I was eager but he said he wasn't good in the mornings and said we'd have better fun after lunch.

 

I don't want to spoil utterly our time together, but I'm straightforward and have voiced my disappointment...only to be given excuses. I wonder if there's simply a clash of expectations here: I was looking to be pleased regularly; he was looking for a paid holiday and may feel he's being asked to work for much less than his usual fee of $1400 per day.

 

Should I simply state that if he's not going to perform as agreed, I'm happy to have him as a holiday-companion and pick up the costs but there will be no fee? Or should I renegotiate the fee based on the number of times we do play together?

 

What would you advise?

[Epigonos]

If you have not paid him yet I believe your solution is a good one. I definitely get the feeling that the guy is using you. I would speak up right away and if he doesn't react well consider paying for a separate room for him in lieu of his fee. Thus you can each go your separate ways and he won't be stuck in town without a room.

[+ deej]

>he offered to lower his rate to $500 per day

 

>may feel he's being asked to work for much less than his usual

>fee of $1400 per day

 

Well, technically, he is being asked to work for less than half his normal rate. But according to what you posted, he agreed to it.

 

This sentence troubles me a good bit, though:

 

>Visiting me from my home city is a goodlooking, well-muscled guy (25)

>with whom I get on well sexually and socially.

 

Any discord between you threatens to ruin what sounds like a pleasant and regular thing back home.

 

I like Epignos' suggestion (as I often do), but I'd only do that after having a talk with him. He might actually have an issue that's preventing performance. Perhaps he's feeling inadequate while surrounded by beautiful Brasilian men, or perhaps he's recovering from an illness, or whatever ... you should find out what it is.

 

Have a talk with him.

[+ Charlie]

This seems like unusual behavior from someone who has plenty of experience of you as a client. Since you have been very specific about what you expect on this trip, it is hard to see this as a misunderstanding of his role. He may not be performing because he subconciously resents the terms, which are not those he would prefer, or he may be having physical problems (related to jetlag?), or he may believe that your relationship is so firmly established that you will overlook some deviations from the script. Whatever it is, the most important thing to do is talk with him immediately about your dissatisfaction, and come to some mutual agreement about how to resolve the problem, rather than let it fester and spoil the trip and any future relationship.

 

On a separate note, your expectations of what should occur strike me as very rigid--truly a script--especially on a long vacation which is supposed to be refreshing, and he may be (intentionally?) trying to get you to be more relaxed and spontaneous.

[+ purplekow]

While from the view we are given in your post it seems like this escort is in definite breach of his agreement with you, I am wondering what his view might be.

Assuming what you say is correct, I might try to renegotiate a deal wherein you pay an hourly fee per sexual encounter rather than a daily rate. This would encourage him to be a bit more interactive in order to make his money. Since there would presumably be quite a few encounters over the week and he has already agreed to discount his rate in order to go on this trip, I think you have an argument for a discounted hourly rate.

If he doesn't agree, I would allow him to stay in the room, I would not pay for the services you didn't receive and I would find a new companion once I was back home. In the meantime, take the money you save and enjoy the hot nights, hot men and hot action of Rio. (Lock the minibar, nothing sates the fire of revenge more than eating a $20 bag of macademia nuts on someone else's tab. LOL)

[Epigonos]

If after your discussion you decide to go separate ways I feel you will have a MUCH better vacation without sharing a room with someone with whom you have just had a serious disagreement. I for one would NOT want to be in a room with someone under those circumstances. Paying for his separate room will, most likely, cost you considerably less than his $2000 fee. Also paying for his room doesn't strand him in Rio without a room he wasn't expecting to have to pay for. As far as his meal and entertainment are concerned I would NOT concern myself about those let him take care of himself there.

[+ Axiom2001]

>If after your discussion you decide to go separate ways I

>feel you will have a MUCH better vacation without sharing a

>room with someone with whom you have just had a serious

>disagreement. I for one would NOT want to be in a room with

>someone under those circumstances. Paying for his separate

>room will, most likely, cost you considerably less than his

>$2000 fee. Also paying for his room doesn't strand him in Rio

>without a room he wasn't expecting to have to pay for. As far

>as his meal and entertainment are concerned I would NOT

>concern myself about those let him take care of himself there.

>

 

 

I'm sitting hear reading and vicariously fuming at what I read from the originator of the thread. Epigonos, your suggestions are so "spot on" and timely! I completely am in accord with what you shared for our cyberfriend to consider! :-)

[+ Axiom2001]

MscleLovr, please let us know (within time) how this situation turned out! I wish you the best in solving it positively! Axiom -

[MscleLovr]

Thank you, gentlemen, for your replies!

 

I particularly like Epigonos's suggestion. I hadn't thought of that solution and it seems to me to be a fair compromise if things don't get better.

 

I have to say the guy is pleasant company and I can't fault him on those grounds. I do have a good time with him when we're at home, but I don't see him regularly and there are a lot of other guys I could see.

 

Having talked briefly to him about this, it seems that he has been working a lot lately and just wants to have a VERY relaxed time.

 

You may not be surprised to learn that after lunch, he said it was too hot and he was too tired....so I suggested we take a break from each other this afternoon, and meet up tonight for dinner and go to bed early for a long session.

 

Concerning Charlie's comment, I understand how I may seem "rigid" and setting a "script". But often I read here on the M/C how important "communication" is.

 

May I point out that he asked to come here; I am happy to travel alone and competent at picking up nice working and non-working guys when I am overseas...so it seemed important to spell out exactly what I would be expecting if he did join me.

 

Am I really being too demanding in saying I expect 3 sessions a day? Or stating the importance to me, as a visible sign of mutual pleasure, that he cums too?

 

As has been said, he is a handsome guy with a great physique....but there are many such guys here in Rio, and I guess that as a fit older and generous man I won't lack for company if we do separate.

[MiamiLooker]

Do you think he's manipulating you? If your best friend was in the same situation as you, what would your advice be? Is there a Portuguese expression for "kick him to the curb?"

[augustman]

This session seriously requires a good escort response. Why none have replied very puzzling. This guy needs help now. I think even if he gave two great sessions where he came and one snuggle and you came sounds like you might be happy. I too do not understand the lack of sexual intervention. God knows you were clear why you did not offer him to come because of price and you had interest in sex several times through out the day. Wow you are in a tough spot, but I sort of have been there when you lay things out clearly and expectations it is really a let down.

 

So any escorts want to give this guy some other ideas otherwise I go with Epingos's plan. To Charlie just because someone says three times a day that is just a plan for the escort to work with. I mean there are many ways to make things interesting. Up to now looks like client is doing all the work. I do think the negotiated price is a hang up which again goes to show negotiated prices can be a no win.

[+ Axiom2001]

<Am I being too demanding in wanting 3 sessions per day?>

 

This reminds me of having "3 meals per day, regularly-scheduled!"

[+ purplekow]

><Am I being too demanding in wanting 3 sessions per day?>

>

>This reminds me of having "3 meals per day,

>regularly-scheduled!"

 

 

If you have been totally clear. as I wrote elsewhere, "I am very horny, you make me horny, don't be surprised if I am angling for sex as many times a day as I possibly can and I am expecting mostly positive responses to this." Three times a day is not too much, and in some cases it is not enough. You are a fantasy man and a fantasy is inspired. You earn a living being a fantasy man and I expect to have my fantasy fulfilled. No apologies accepted." If you are that clear, then the escort has a chance to say yea or nay and move from there.

 

If you don't ask for what you want, don't complain about what you get.

[+ Charlie]

You are not being too demanding if you want lots of sex that you are paying for. My comment was that the exact quantification of 3 times per day struck me as rigid, since your description of the first days of the trip was so specific about exactly how many times he had not cum. Would you complain if he came 4 times one day? If he came 4 times today, would you accept only 2 times tomorrow? OK, we all do some mental calculation of our experience, but it seemed to me that the overall quality of the time together should be more important than the precise number of ejaculations.

Anyway, I hope that by now the two of you have come to some sort of accommodation for the remainder of the trip, and that it includes lots of sex for you, either with him or numerous Brazilian beauties.

[JT Brooklyn]

IMHO...2K for 4 days Plus "Expences", which I'm sure will come to a decent amount of Change!

It Doesn't sound like you are exactly getting Much Back for your Investment?

 

Next time Invest those 'Reals'... in just the Local Rio Gorgeous Guys! Your return will be Much Better!

 

This Guy definitely sounds like a very Unfortunately, "Typical" Working Guy. The Minute you "Stop Paying- he's gonna Stop Playin"! I suggest you find a Replacement for him, when you do Return Home. We ALL make Mistakes in Life, as long as we learn from them the First Time!

 

:P

[JT Brooklyn]

augustman. You should realize MOST "Working Guy's" would rather be SEEN by Client's,than heard! Chit Chat doesn't Pay the Rent!

 

Not Many "Working Guy's" are getting the Rent Paid from the M4M Site Forums, especially lately. IMHO of course..

 

It alway's made sense to me, Their Opinions Can and Probably in the Past, hsve lost them a certain amount of Possible Contacts.

 

Plus not that many except Mainly the "Usual Suspects", Apparently the Same Advertising Few, Read the Site. IMHO of course... :P

[augustman]

I guess you are right, my expectations are always high. I just know there are some very well qualified individuals who have been to Rio on a regular basis or done int'l travel that might help in this instance. Also, there is an appropriate way to answer a request that can make an escort come off very insightful and actually add to his business. This is really the type of question or request that is right up Juan of Vanc. alley and he usually responds so right on. I just think it is difficult to only here responses from clients alone. To be honest I did have two somewhat sticky situations in the past month with two different guys and I was able to get a very good answer from BN who took the time to help some guys do help and do not have to be sarcastic about it.

[JT Brooklyn]

True August. Juan is One of the Few to take the Opinion Gamble, with alway's an insightful Answer..As opposed to those whose Advertising.. is the only thing remembered from the "Long Drawn Out Opinion"! LOL

 

We ALL should keep in mind, not every "Working Guy" is Good at Companionship, for more than a few Hours, never mind a Long Trip!

There are or were, Many "Working Guy's" in NYC that would definitely Agree with that!

 

Those that are, Usually Travel with the Same Repeat Client's, since the Expense is Definitely Worth it! Those Guy's Give a Great "Bang for the Buck"! LOL The Rest can be a Real Crap Shoot, as our poor friend found out, the hard way! :P

[Luv2play]

This whole thread reminds me of the expression "Why carry coal to Newcastle"? The way I look at it, this gentleman is looking for someone to bang with for $500 a day, 3 times (with cum). That works out to ($165 per lay). This is below what the escort would expect in the home market but I suppose he was attracted to the idea of a holiday where he only had to pony up the airfare. On the other hand, the client could have had three escorts a day in Rio or the same one three times, for less than $500. Frankly, I don't see why he is complaining now that things are not working out when the whole premise of the trip was somewhat flawed and counter to logic.

[Guest zipperzone]

IMO you are being played for a sucker (and I don't mean cock)

 

I'd bet good $$$ that he had made up his mind before leaving home that because of the low payment per day, he wasn't going to give you any sex at all.

 

Cut him loose - bye bye baby!

[raulgmanzo]

I think there isn't a whole lot an escort could say that hasn't been covered by the sensible responses already posted. As an escort trying to be as professional as possible I believe that we should carry through with our end of the bargain even if we think we could have or should have gotten more money. Unless there was something dishonest or some significant change of circumstances. Further if I as an escort felt I could not go through with what was agreed (for example I feel the client has a communicable disease) I would absolutely communicate that and refuse to accept payment unless I believed that the client was dishonest. However even then my feeling is that one takes the loss and considers it the price one pays to learn something valuable about the client. Or perhaps in this case the escort.

 

Possibly the escort has discovered he has something, a cold, an STD, jock itch and is simply not telling that to the client. Frankly if I were the escort in that hypothetical situation I would refuse payment.

And escorts really need to be willing to admit that we are occasionally less than super-heroes and once in a while sucumb to human frailities and in these cases we probably will forgo some pay, that is part of the reason we charge what we do, we have no sick days etc. This escort needs to level with you.

 

Honestly as an escort losing out on $2000 would be IMHO worth it to safeguard my reputation. Even if it meant me the escort getting my own room so that my client could have a good time with the local replacements. In my limited experience a repeat client who flys one to some distant place will probably treat such an honest and professional escort very well and if not still pay something then would certainly make it up in the long run.

 

That some may think it silly to bring an escort to Rio is of course immaterial. And anyway I could imagine a client enjoying all the eye candy but preferring a known escort that he trusts.

 

And while it may behoove one to be flexible and spontaneous there is nothing wrong with a script. 3x a day is not too much to ask although one cannot expect the escort or anybody to guarantee cunnig a specific number of times or even at all especially in a new environment with jetlag etc.

 

On the face of it, assuming the client is accurate, the escort appears unprofessional, but the real problem is that he is not communicating some problem. And that he might resent not getting his usual fee just does not cut it. A good ongoing relationship should be reward enough

to make up for slashing one's fee.

Because I don't worry about sessions going over and because each client and encounter can be so different I NEVER think ohh I could have or should have made more.

Rather I prefer to think my client will be so happy that he will jump at the chance to hire me again (perhaps at a higher fee) and recommend me to others.

 

The escort may owe you an explanation if not also a refund or reduction.

 

Raul

[Luv2play]

Raul, you have just given a very good response from an escort's perspective. Just as Juan Vancouver would have, were he here. You do a credit to yourself in the process!

[KY_TOP]

So MscleLovr.... What did you end up doing and how did the situation work out for you and the escort?

[MscleLovr]

For those who don't want to read the details, here's a summary: I did some straight talking; there was no confusion about what was agreed; afterwards we had one great night and two so-so; he pocketed the full fee. My reflections follow after the details.

 

Details:

1. As I had posted I planned to do, I sat down with him and expressed my disappointment. I suggested we review the emails that I had kept in a folder on my laptop, but interestingly, there was no need; he said there was no confusion about what we had agreed. He admitted he was not performing.

 

2. The reasons for non-performance turned out to be quite mundane: the weather and depression.

 

3. The weather in Rio has been simply terrible for some months - each day has seen heavy rain for some considerable time, and dark grey clouds hanging over the city. Since the middle of December, there have only been 3 days that were totally sunny - luckily, Sunday was one of those days! He had been expecting to enjoy a hot beach holiday and this was an intense disappointment to him, even though I had planned excursions and hired a car and driver for us.

 

4. After a dinner in which he was practically catatonic, he advised me that he was prone to bouts of depression. When they struck, he normally just shut himself in his apartment and didn't answer the phone. On holiday in Rio, of course, he was unable to do this so he just became silent and uncooperative. I expressed sympathy but didn't know what else to do.

 

5. He did rouse himself one night. We had a good dinner together, and then we went clubbing. He became horny and was affectionate and demonstrative in public. After dancing for some hours, we came home and had a wild time in bed to our mutual satisfaction. Other times, he was OK and I had a decent time with him, but it certainly was not as pleasurable as times I've shared with him in our home-city.

 

Reflections:

1. I like the guy and so, when he asked to join me, I was not completely selfish and didn't think entirely of what would suit me. I was conscious of the "coals to Newcastle" argument and told him of a porn-star/muscled bottom I see here for $300 overnight. When he countered with his offer of $500 and swore we would have a great time all day and night, I really should just have thought about whether I needed his company. For the same money, I could have paid for a good friend to come on holiday with me. Next time, I'll do just that.

 

2. I don't really know how I could have handled his behaviour/depression any better than I did. I tried to be understanding.

 

3. Ultimately it is a business proposition: I expected him to "go to work" for the money...or at least to modify the fee arrangement, as Raul astutely wrote in his post. When I handed him the agreed fee in an open envelope, I commented levelly that it was what we had agreed "if you think that's still appropriate". He simply pocketed the envelope without a word, not even a "thank you". Although he is goodlooking and has a wonderful physique, I won't be hiring him again.

 

Gentlemen, I want to thank those of you who took the trouble to write and comment. Some of the observations did "sting" but I think they were fair. Overall, they were helpful to me.

[+ Lucky]

Thanks for the update. i was among those wondering what had developed.

As for Raul being astute, I found his post quite impressive. He surely would do well in law school if he has not already!