Do I need to keep paying to feel this kind of connection?

[viewing ownly]

I skimmed many comments, so I apologize if this was a suggestion already made. Have you considered being a provider yourself to validate the opinion of the escort who got your head spinning with his "Why do you pay?" comment? That was an amateur, inappropriate thing for him to say to you when he's the recipient of your time. 

If you enjoy donating to be in the company of people you're attracted to, it is not going to change the dynamic due to your assets, just a more pleasant time for the men you share being with. If you want that same kind of experience without the financial hassle, that's what dating apps and sites are for. I don't know you personally at all, but I can guess that handsome gay tall hung men aren't struggling. 

[kingsley88]

I live in NYC area and can somehow relate in the sense that dating here is hard. I haven't had the best luck in the dating apps but I still try to put myself out there. However, I do have friends in healthy relationships so I know it is possible and out of the pool of thousands of men, I just need one to click with.

At the same time, I've accepted being single is also ok. 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

9 hours ago, lseactuary90 said:

I'm not 'paying for sex' though, I'm paying for presence/intimacy etc which is lacking elsewhere. They are different. 

 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

10 hours ago, lseactuary90 said:

Will I be paying for intimacy forever?
And why did a paid interaction feel more real than all the “free” ones I’ve had?

Hopefully yes, if you can afford it!

The paid interaction felt more "real" because you were in control:  you controlled the time, the place, the duration.  One gets the impression you like to be in control but also like to be pursued, which is a difficult combination. 

As for paying for intimacy forever, that's like asking if you'll be masturbating solo forever.  You probably will, but at different amounts throughout your life.  As a fellow single millennial, my sex diet includes random hookups, regular friends with benefits, dates, masseurs, escorts, solo masturbation, and even a relationship every few years.  A healthy sex diet, like a food diet, is variety and moderation.

When I am in a relationship, I'll tend to have more sex with that person and less sex via hookups or escorts, because I'm too worn out from sex with my boyfriend.  But I'll still budget time and money for high quality escort sessions with my regulars.

Edited June 1 by Vegas_Millennial

[lseactuary90]

8 hours ago, SirBillybob said:

Back to the ask.

It could be worth it to exchange in kind for sexual intimacy as a model for sexual self-actualization. It’s only framed as fraudulent because people erroneously think the work can only be soul-crushing and the connection no more than artificial.

Primary attachment relationships are not obligatory. Half of the folks who assert going solo is an inferior model end up in failed relationships anyway and rush for serial do-overs out of confirmation bias. There’s no rule that truly legitimately argues one over the other. That’s value systems for you.

How you juggle family, friends, libido, and genital play dates is up to you. Just do you and own it. 

If you and your team proclaim your glass is half empty owing to external deprivation by others, that can mess up the type of worldview that might otherwise guide you well. 

This was exactly my thinking going into the encounter (well massage, but obviously it evolved to more). I either sit around 'waiting' for someone to give me a shot via a dating app or otherwise, or take matters into my own hands in some sense, and experience more for myself in another way. This also doesn't mean I 'gave up' on trying to date etc and experience the 'real world' but this was just a way to manage the constant 'getting nowhere' in this area of my life. 

I don't see single-ness as an issue at all. I have come across so many failed relationships - and even console several people in these dynamics - to know that being single and happy is much better than being with a shitty person. 

The piece that threw me off was the (mutual) escalation and then the comment about not needing to 'pay'. I wish he hadn't said this.

[lseactuary90]

8 hours ago, AtticusBK said:

I assume you’ve talked to your friends about your situation? Are any going through something similar, or is it (seemingly) just you? How did they get past it if they’ve gone thru it, or how are they dealing with it if they’re having similar experiences? 

Indeed I have but it honestly doesn't help much. It varies so I don't tend to compare directly because everyone's situation is different. Some had relationships are are choosing to 'sit it out'. Some have simply given up entirely and don't participate. Some are in relationships. Some are getting dates but not the matches they like etc. Some are happily coupled. etc. I basically know someone in every situation haha. However, it is hard for me to find someone in my 'exact' situation, because I guess everyone has their own life experience, hence I more focus on what I want from life / where I want to be in life etc. The analogy I give in therapy is if you are disabled and want to play basketball, and keep speaking to other disabled people, and then michael jordan, neither helps your situation right? 

[lseactuary90]

8 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

I’m basing my view on what you have repeatedly shared — across multiple threads, over months — not on assumptions. It’s pattern recognition. You’ve consistently rejected every piece of insight that doesn’t fit your narrative, and when someone holds up a mirror, you call it judgment.

You’re a self-proclaimed hot guy with a big dick (your words), living in one of the most densely queer-populated cities in the world, who doesn’t have to pay to get laid (again your words) — and still claims connection is impossible.

Meanwhile, there are people with severe disabilities, chronic illness, or real barriers who may never experience connection, let alone love — not because they’re unworthy, but because the world doesn’t always meet them halfway. You don’t have that obstacle. You have proximity, privilege, and access. What you lack is the emotional capacity to show up without needing to be chosen first.

That’s not harsh. That’s reality. And pretending otherwise is an insult to people who are truly isolated — not by attitude, but by circumstance. Whether you’re ready to sit with that is your choice.

You seem to have a fixed mindset of how you see things and are quoting things to suit your own narrative. 

What you 'quoted' were things the masseur said to me, not things I claimed.

Comparing me to someone with illness, etc, shows m clearly where your mindset is at. 'You don't have that obstacle' clearly shows me you lack empathy and don't understand the situation I am in. EVERYONE is dealing with their set of cards. While yes, I have privilege in some regards, this doesn't automatically mean anything and you are delusional to think so. It is funny when I claim I 'shouldn't' have issues, then I am shut down, and then you literally say the same thing comparing me to someone disabled. Go look at yourself. 

I have tried to reason with you, but you clearly have no interest in considering other opinions or keep an open mind, so I request you to stop responding to my threads as I wi;l not be responding to your posts anymore. 

[lseactuary90]

7 hours ago, DunwoodyGuy said:

A lot to unpack in your post, and I'm not the person to address it all, but since you live in New York, you must know a lot of men who work in entertainment fields and have to cultivate their good looks for professional reasons. And if you know more a few of them, you have probably come across men who are stunning physically yet complain the same as you do that despite being tall/handsome/well-endowed like you, they never come close to having a real relationship (like you). I have seen this in many friends and acquaintances over the decades. Some remain "perennially single" and some find themselves in relationships but not until their 30s or 40s. There's no magical potion or magical change that comes over them. If anything, a vulnerability pierces through their armor and they finally are able to allow themselves to love. But their attractiveness and/or dick size are no more the key to their happiness than they were the impediment to it.  

Dropping the intractable issue of whether or not you deserve love and will ever find it (yes, you do, and maybe you will/maybe you won't), let's look at your question of whether or not you should continue to enjoy the intimacy you feel with their provider. Well, you're in the Company of Men--the answer is yes, of course you should, for as long as it gives you pleasure! But never confuse the intimacy you feel in a brief encounter where you're paying with the real, difficult intimacy of being with a partner who is an equal. They're two different things, and while it's fun to flirt with romance and it's a good thing for you to "melt" and feel "soft, present, sensual, and alive," at the end of the night, when he takes the money from the top of the dresser and goes home to his dog or his cat or his boyfriend (or his girlfriend), he's not fantasizing about settling down with you and getting married. He was playing a role, and you chose well.

Sorry to go on so long, but I think the ultimate question lies in your comment "I liked who I was in that moment." (Your italics.) The question is: What would it take for you to like yourself in the rest of your life? Maybe once you figure out a way to do that, you'll come closer to finding that intimacy you so clearly crave.

Great post, thank you. 

Somewhat agree re: your NYC paragraph. I guess my mindset is I'm emotionally ready for more - and have been for a while - but it just doesn't seem to happen. So do I want to 'wait' till 40 for a 'maybe this happens' or do I want to take some steps to try and still grow as I can. I think growth should be constant and not at the 'mercy' of when someone decides to 'give you a shot'. Also, I know plenty of emotionally unavailable men here, who find (typically open) relationships and otherwise, so I don't think its 'binary'. Infact, I tend to find a lot of relationships that occur here are with more between emotionally avoidant men, so this 'myth' that people who are 'perfect' (I don't mean physically) end up in relationships simply untrue in my experience. I would argue its easier to find someone if you are emotionally colder, since there is more of that around, so its easier to find a match. 

To put it another way, since this also comes up in therapy, 'your in your 20s, give it time', I did, now I'm in my 30s and nothing is happening and am told 'wait till your 40's;'. So what if I reach 50 and never find anyone? Do I then hire an escort? Given the way things are going for me - well not going for me - doesn't engaging sooner just make more sense? 

It is hard for me not to be confused, given I never have experienced intimacy through dating / a relationship yet, not by choice, but someone just never selected me (and vice versa). I am aware he is playing a role, but my reference point is different, and this is what is throwing me off. My comparison here is with the soulless hookups, guys who are flakey and ghost regardless of how much you engage, entitled pricks who are always looking to replace you etc, not a partner you once had and can compare intimacy to if that makes sense. This is what made me pause, as I wasn't sue if I am charting dangerous grounds. This is why I left the encounter with mixed feelings. If you look at it another way, I could pay him again, experience intimacy again, and that would be my most consistent experience with a man till date. Does this move me along further? Of course, I finally experience reciprocation more than once with a man, and can see how that feels *for me*. Is the disappointment that someone isn't selecting me / only with me for the money per say, real too, very much yes.  

So I thought about it more, and this is what was interesting, I was present in a way that wasn't new, but respected an reciprocated 'back', and that is what felt different. Often in these encounters I'm showing up as I did, but then they are the ones pulling back for whatever reason or emotionally guarded, and not meeting me where I am at, so its hard to feel this 'complete' way when your giving and someone isn't reciprocating. Ofc there have been moments where they have (for free) - and those didn't last for whatever reason - but that doesn't make them less real and are a useful benchmark again that I am capable of 'more' but just need someone to match me. What threw me off is it came from the escort avenue, which is not what I was expecting. 

[lseactuary90]

6 hours ago, sniper said:

Are your friends not turning into lovers because you're subconsciously keeping them in that box? As an actuary, you should periodically review the data on your book of business to see if any risks belong in a different tier. Also. I think you may have unrealistic expectations a long term relationship can't live up to the thrill of a first encounter with a professional. 

Nope, its because we never develop interest/romantic interest with eachother. And because they are straight, in a relationship, not compatibility for other reasons and so on. I don't equate a relationship to an escort experience (or hookup) and never have.

[lseactuary90]

6 hours ago, sniper said:

Something that is different about gay relationships is that there is not a presumption about who does the pursuing. Are you perhaps waiting to be wooed rather than doing the wooing, or expecting some sort of 50/50 reciprocity that is kind of rarely how it goes in the real world? Maybe you're gonna need to be the one to do the asking out the first couple(dozen) times.

Also, don't necessarily look down on hookups as having no potential to become more. 15 years ago a friend of mine was fucking a guy from Manhunt 2-3 times a week for 6 months before the bottom said "so when are you going to ask me out on a date?" They're married now and have a kid.

I am the one making effort 98% of the time and its unmet. 

[lseactuary90]

5 hours ago, viewing ownly said:

I skimmed many comments, so I apologize if this was a suggestion already made. Have you considered being a provider yourself to validate the opinion of the escort who got your head spinning with his "Why do you pay?" comment? That was an amateur, inappropriate thing for him to say to you when he's the recipient of your time. 

If you enjoy donating to be in the company of people you're attracted to, it is not going to change the dynamic due to your assets, just a more pleasant time for the men you share being with. If you want that same kind of experience without the financial hassle, that's what dating apps and sites are for. I don't know you personally at all, but I can guess that handsome gay tall hung men aren't struggling. 

I did consider it but I'm not sure I could do it. 

I'm very much wired for a 1:1 sensual intimate experience, with someone I am attracted to, so I'm not sure I could satisfy someone I am not into at all. And I say this because I've had (free) hookups with guys I've not been into and never felt good about it after. 

Plenty of tall handsome gay tall hung men are on these apps, so I guess they are struggling. Just because someone has these attributes, doesn't mean they will find a match, infact, sometimes the 'more boxes you tick' the harder it is to find a match because the pool is smaller to match you if that makes sense? I have an acquaintance - tall, white, muscled, high IG following / social, etc, can't find a relationship, because he is a bottom, and tops tend to seek shorter bottoms for example.

[lseactuary90]

5 hours ago, kingsley88 said:

I live in NYC area and can somehow relate in the sense that dating here is hard. I haven't had the best luck in the dating apps but I still try to put myself out there. However, I do have friends in healthy relationships so I know it is possible and out of the pool of thousands of men, I just need one to click with.

At the same time, I've accepted being single is also ok. 

Being single is totally okay. What I am not ok with is going through life never experiencing intimacy of any kind or connection beyond platonic. 

[lseactuary90]

1 hour ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

Hopefully yes, if you can afford it!

The paid interaction felt more "real" because you were in control:  you controlled the time, the place, the duration.  One gets the impression you like to be in control but also like to be pursued, which is a difficult combination. 

As for paying for intimacy forever, that's like asking if you'll be masturbating solo forever.  You probably will, but at different amounts throughout your life.  As a fellow single millennial, my sex diet includes random hookups, regular friends with benefits, dates, masseurs, escorts, solo masturbation, and even a relationship every few years.  A healthy sex diet, like a food diet, is variety and moderation.

When I am in a relationship, I'll tend to have more sex with that person and less sex via hookups or escorts, because I'm too worn out from sex with my boyfriend.  But I'll still budget time and money for high quality escort sessions with my regulars.

I guess I see it a bit differently. I didn't control the time or duration - he overstayed since we were talking and it was fine. Yes I controlled the place but I do with hookups too. If anything, I controlled the fact that this was a massage, an not the fact that it escalated, so I had les control than a hookup, so I would say the reverse was true. 

Noted on the sex diet, good way of looking at it. 

Out of interest, do you find the high quality escort sessions help make you a better partner / lover etc? 

[Km411]

Loneliness is common, as is your response to it. And it’s good that you’re asking these questions; it means you have a chance to break free from it. The next step is to allow for the possibility that you’re viewing the cause and effect of your loneliness through a distorted lense and with some significant blind spots. The only real, lasting love any of us has is the love we have for ourselves. Relationships with others are merely a refraction of that love (or lack of it). My recommendation is that you pause, stop writing, reflect on the wisdom shared in these posts, and begin an interior journey. If your therapist can’t guide you, find another. It’s the hardest thing you’ll ever do, but if you do the work your loneliness will be vanquished.

[Km411]

As an aside, many of us spend time with providers for reasons having nothing to do with loneliness, neediness, etc. I reject the premise in some of your posts that these are the reasons people seek them out. Just saying….

[+ sniper]

58 minutes ago, lseactuary90 said:

I am the one making effort 98% of the time and its unmet. 

The "unmet" thing here is where I'm thinking maybe you're giving up too soon. Maybe you need a little more time to grow on people(amd they you). Maybe you need to ask for the second( and third) date too. 

[lseactuary90]

3 minutes ago, sniper said:

The "unmet" thing here is where I'm thinking maybe you're giving up too soon. Maybe you need a little more time to grow on people(amd they you). Maybe you need to ask for the second( and third) date too. 

I give people ~3 chances (and more depending on how they respond to texts etc, sometimes less if there is a huge red flag which is <5% of cases). You would be surprised how many guys simply fuck up by flaking or otherwise.

Edited June 1 by lseactuary90

[+ ApexNomad]

1 hour ago, lseactuary90 said:

You seem to have a fixed mindset of how you see things and are quoting things to suit your own narrative. 

What you 'quoted' were things the masseur said to me, not things I claimed.

Comparing me to someone with illness, etc, shows m clearly where your mindset is at. 'You don't have that obstacle' clearly shows me you lack empathy and don't understand the situation I am in. EVERYONE is dealing with their set of cards. While yes, I have privilege in some regards, this doesn't automatically mean anything and you are delusional to think so. It is funny when I claim I 'shouldn't' have issues, then I am shut down, and then you literally say the same thing comparing me to someone disabled. Go look at yourself. 

I have tried to reason with you, but you clearly have no interest in considering other opinions or keep an open mind, so I request you to stop responding to my threads as I wi;l not be responding to your posts anymore. 

You asked for perspective. I gave it — based entirely on the words you’ve chosen to share across multiple threads.  I took the time to read all your posts. Every thread. Every analogy. Every rationalization. That’s more than most people — including, apparently, the multiple therapists you’ve cycled through — have managed to get through to you.  You may not like the reflection, but don’t confuse that with me lacking empathy. I simply stopped co-signing the story you keep telling yourself.

Privilege doesn’t guarantee connection — but denying its role entirely isn’t self-awareness, it’s avoidance. And calling disagreement “lack of empathy” is just a convenient way to dodge anything that makes you uncomfortable.

I’m double your age. I’ve lived long enough to know the difference between real confusion and performative helplessness. You say you want intimacy, but you treat it like something you’re owed — a reward for doing the “right things,” instead of something you build by showing up without a script.

You talk about being emotionally ready, but what you really want is emotional certainty — the kind you think you can buy, control, or talk your way into. You intellectualize your loneliness, compare yourself to others, and twist analogies to sound reflective, when really, you’re just spinning in place.

Let’s be clear: you didn’t come here for conversation. You came for validation. And when you didn’t get it, you called it judgment.

At a certain point, this stops being a request for advice and starts being a waste of everyone else’s time. Including yours.

[Archangel]

13 hours ago, lseactuary90 said:

I feel there is a lot of assumptions and projection

That’s the way of the forum when you do allow yourself to be vulnerable as you were in your post. Loads of guys will diagnose your problem and tell you what’s wrong and tell you what to do, instead of affirming your feelings are valid and then exploring them with you. I have found this forum is twice as judgmental as it is compassionate. 

That said, I have heard similar things, although I don’t fit the bill of a stereotypical attractive gay man. I hear from straight and gay folks alike any guy would be lucky to be with me, largely because of my personality. If that’s the case, why has every relationship ended with the guy effectively losing interest? If any guy would be lucky to be with, why aren’t all the guys, or at least some of the guys, knocking? Because to a degree it’s not true.

In this specific instance you describe, my suspicion is the masseur had a good time and did enjoy your time. If he were you and wouldn’t pay, and means it, call his bluff and invite him over. Would he come over and do everything with you for no pay? Find out. 

Edited June 1 by Archangel
Added last sentence to first paragraph

[Km411]

Pause and reflect. Everything @ApexNomad has said is true, you just can’t see it yet and you won’t until you put in the time and work.

[Archangel]

7 minutes ago, Km411 said:

Pause and reflect. Everything @ApexNomad has said is true, you just can’t see it yet and you won’t until you put in the time and work.

I disagree. Everything @ApexNomadhas said is not true. It’s an opinion.

Pause and reflect, yes. But that’s not all true. It’s condescending and judgmental. But not “all true.”

[+ ApexNomad]

26 minutes ago, Archangel said:

That’s the way of the forum when you do allow yourself to be vulnerable as you were in your post. Loads of guys will diagnose your problem and tell you what’s wrong and tell you what to do, instead of affirming your feelings are valid and then exploring them with you. I have found this forum is twice as judgmental as it is compassionate. 

That said, I have heard similar things, although I don’t fit the bill of a stereotypical attractive gay man. I hear from straight and gay folks alike any guy would be lucky to be with me, largely because of my personality. If that’s the case, why has every relationship ended with the guy effectively losing interest? If any guy would be lucky to be with, why aren’t all the guys, or at least some of the guys, knocking? Because to a degree it’s not true.

In this specific instance you describe, my suspicion is the masseur had a good time and did enjoy your time. If he were you and wouldn’t pay, and means it, call his bluff and invite him over. Would he come over and do everything with you for no pay? Find out. 

I appreciate where you’re coming from, but the idea that “the forum diagnoses and tells you what’s wrong” feels like a bit of a backhanded take — especially when most people here are responding in good faith, taking the time to actually read everything and offer thoughtful perspective that the poster explicitly asked for.

I’ve been very vulnerable on this site — shockingly so, at times. And I value emotional honesty. But there’s a difference between validating someone’s feelings and co-signing a narrative that keeps them stuck. Exploring feelings is important. So is being willing to challenge the story we keep telling ourselves.

This is a forum — a space for exchanging ideas and opinions. The original poster is already seeing a professional therapist, yet still chooses to engage here. That tells me he’s not just looking to feel heard — he’s looking for input he’s not getting, choosing to receive, or not wanting to listen. But when that input doesn’t align with the narrative he’s committed to, he dismisses it. This isn’t about conversation anymore. It’s about control.

[+ ApexNomad]

15 minutes ago, Archangel said:

I disagree. Everything @ApexNomadhas said is not true. It’s an opinion.

Pause and reflect, yes. But that’s not all true. It’s condescending and judgmental. But not “all true.”

Of course it’s an opinion — that’s what this forum is. A place where people share perspectives. I never claimed to speak for universal truth — just the patterns I’ve seen, directly from the poster’s own words, across multiple threads. That’s not judgment. That’s observation.

Have you taken the time to read, pause, and reflect on your own posts? Because frankly, they’re some of the most judgmental and condescending I’ve seen here — and that’s saying something.

[Km411]

12 minutes ago, ApexNomad said:

I never claimed to speak for universal truth — just the patterns I’ve seen

This is all any of us can ever do. You might take issue with the way @ApexNomadcommunicated it, but the point is he’s offered alternative perspectives from which the OP might view and understand his dilemma. That he would share his wisdom and experience with the OP at all is a gift. For the OP, it will take time to understand.

[pubic_assistance]

16 hours ago, lseactuary90 said:

what does it mean if the only way I’ve ever felt this kind of presence, softness, and intimacy is through a paid experience?

I'm gonna tackle this question after also reading all the other commentary that's been shared.

I will precede my "analysis" with an explanation. Although shared before on C.o.M., you may not know where I am coming from. When I was in my early 30's, I identified as a gay man. I started dating men after many years of exclusively dating women.(Although sexually active with both).

I am sharing this information, to say that I also found dating gay men to be difficult. Although the initial connections felt "right", every situation felt transactional in the sense that I was somehow there to entertain my partner and once I no longer brought fresh excitement to the meet ups, the interest waned. I also noticed that gay men rarely have the ability to give up their hook up lifestyle even for a few months while they focus on a relationship. (I dont believe in long-term sexual monogamy, but I do feel its important as a method of imprinting during a period of focused dating with one partner).

My opinion over all, is that dating gay men in NYC is problematic because there are SO many emotional distractions. Loads of parties, venues, and available dick that makes these guys dopamine-junkies. This may likely be why so many end up meth addicted, when they run out of external stimuli to keep the brain-chemical party going.

The overall unpleasant result of trying to date a dopamine junkie, is ABANDONMENT. Your feelings of being "seen" by your provider were an unexpected reward in an environment where the power-of-the-purse had you in control of the moment.  The comment: "why do you need to pay" was an ego burst of "you are special" commentary that your mom might have given you at five years old. So familiar patterns of feeling cherished, understood and satisfied ensued. Overall, you've managed to pick well, and have scored a true professional escort. Because these are all the feelings that a lonely person, who is frequently feeling abandoned would seek. He sounds like a keeper.

When you date, you are both going to be looking for the OTHER person, to be making the effort to provide a lot of familar sensory experiences. When either of you gets lazy, (or exhausted), the magic is gone. When you HIRE an experienced professional, you are guaranteed a magic show without needing to pull a rabbit put of the hat yourself, just pull out your wallet to say thanks for a wonderful time.

To be clear...ALL relationships are difficult. I ended up marrying one of my college friends (female). I never did meet a guy who I felt wouldn't ultimately abandon me when he got bored. The trick is to find someone who doesn't mind being bored with you.

Edited June 1 by pubic_assistance
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